PC be able to have graphics close to the Xbox 360?

[BenSkywalker]

I don't think any of these statements are accurate. Since games like Gears of War are coming to the Xbox 360 and the PC at the same time, I think that says that next gen consoles will be about as capable as a top end PC when they launch

Using that same standard DooM3, FarCry and HL2 are all on or are shortly coming to the last gen consoles, so obviously they are as powerful as a top tier PC right now.... 😛

The X850XT😛E can't run the original SplinterCell with the same level of detail that the XBox can(can not enable the highest quality shadows)- do not underestimate the rift a fixed platform creates.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: BenSkywalker

I don't think any of these statements are accurate. Since games like Gears of War are coming to the Xbox 360 and the PC at the same time, I think that says that next gen consoles will be about as capable as a top end PC when they launch

Using that same standard DooM3, FarCry and HL2 are all on or are shortly coming to the last gen consoles, so obviously they are as powerful as a top tier PC right now.... 😛

The X850XT😛E can't run the original SplinterCell with the same level of detail that the XBox can(can not enable the highest quality shadows)- do not underestimate the rift a fixed platform creates.

how does the 6800u do? is it because ATI cards are forced to used SM 1 instead of 3?

Generally PC Gfx on o top-of-the-line machine looks MUCH better than current console gfx.

And i am betting 'a year'. 😉
(18 months for mainstream games)

 

[BillyBobJoel71]

once the next gen cards come out, the xbox 2 will be beaten. think about this: a good gaming pc has a separate sound card for audio, a huge power supply, and everything else in it runs on its own silicon chip, but on the xbox 2, the processors have to handle everything them selves. it might use more resources, but yet again, all games will run at the same speed, no lag or choppiness on the xbox.

 

[Insomniak]

Originally posted by: BenSkywalker
Using that same standard DooM3, FarCry and HL2 are all on or are shortly coming to the last gen consoles

At 640x480 with no AA, no AF, and with lower res textures and many effects disabled because the hardware does not support them. At 30 fps.

Originally posted by: BenSkywalker
so obviously they are as powerful as a top tier PC right now.... 😛

See above. The consoles can barely struggle through those games, when the games are dumbed down specifically for them. I wouldn't call that equity.

 

[Pariah]

I don't think any of these statements are accurate. Since games like Gears of War are coming to the Xbox 360 and the PC at the same time, I think that says that next gen consoles will be about as capable as a top end PC when they launch - they may have a small lead (1 year or less), but I don't think they'll really be able to out power a PC for long.

I could run Doom 3 on an XP 1700+ and Radeon 8500 if I wanted to, just as I could run it on an A64 FX and 6800 Ultra. Does that mean they are comparable power wise? I could actually play Doom 3 on an Apple G5 as well if I wanted to, does that make it comparable to a highend PC simply because it can run the same game?

Who knows how an XBox 360 will compare to a PC in November as looking at spec sheets is a complete waste of time. But one thing can be said for sure, 360 games should look a lot better simply because the developers can push the hardware to its limit (or at least to their programming abilities) right out of the gate knowing everyone who uses a 360 will get the same gaming experience. Consoles also have the advantage that all the features, which are usually a generation or 2 ahead of comptemporary PC's (FSAA, mip mapping, T&L, polygon gaming, 32bit color, to name a few console 1st features) can be turned on for the best possible quality without dropping performance below acceptable levels. So even if the 360 is in the same ballpark as a PC, it will have the advantage. As developers become more familiar with the hardware, the graphics will only get better cancelling out any ground the PC will gain from hardware upgrades for a year or 2 going forward.

With the next generation of consoles moving to HD capabilities, one of the main advantages of the PC's higher resolution gaming will be negated somewhat. One of the major complaints of current consoles is how dated they look due to low resolutions textures and game itself. We can say with pretty good certainty that 4 years from now we will not saying that about the next generation of consoles since the PC isn't going to be getting any boost in resolution from where it is now to make it better again. So PC are going to have to out feature consoles from here on out, since the higher resolution argument will no longer apply.

 

[apoppin]

the death of PC gaming gfx has already been predected . . . over and over, again and again - with EACH new launch of a console gaming platform - for many years now. 😛
:roll:

these reports of its death are GREATLY exaggerated 😉

still

:thumbsdown:

 

[RussianSensation]

I highly doubt next generation graphics cards will surpass xbox because R500 for Xbox is a graphics processor that corresponds to roughly R600 for PC. It has embedded DRAM that should allow for a substantial benefit when AA is enabled. Every xbox game must support at least 2AA and at 1080i 48inch HDTV, hardly anyone would say that it looks worse than a 21inch CRT on a PC. Has anyone here actually seen a GOOD HDTV in action? I'd take 2x the size and slight reduction of resolution over a 17inch LCD or 21 crt anyday.

PC will only get R520 this fall which is 1 generation behind R500 for xbox. PS3 and Revolution will be even more powerful. Like some said above, I'd say Xbox 360 is 1 year behind in graphics (assuming R600 is released November 2006 from Xbox360's release date) and 2+ years behind in CPU speed given that it can process 6 threads. I would tend to think developers will not exploit full power of the platform about 2 years from now, but I dont have doubts that many games even in the first year will utilize the multi-core aspect of the system right away because the developers know those specs far in advance. Either way you slice is, a graphics card is what matters for gaming 99% of the time. And xbox 360 has 48 unified pipeline gpu. Even if R520 has 32 pipelines and 10 vertex shaders, it is still not as powerful. Point being....it's hard to compare PCs and consoles since they have different strengts. But...considering Xbox will cost 2-3 times less than a slower PC any way you slice it, you are getting a deal.

Most ppl dont realize there are kids who walk in into the store and still buy $199 9600XTs at Futureshop or $299 9800Pros. There are so many PCs sold with integrated graphics for 1 grand and those same kids ask their parents for a new pc in hopes of gaming but get junk. Consoles simplify the decision making for parents by providing a dedicated (even if inferior to PCs system) that costs MUCH less and gives parents less headaches. Add to the fact that there are no driver compatibility issues and no hassles with viruses or BSODs and lock ups. Ask yourself, if your son/daughter wanted to play games, would you buy them a $1000 PC or a $300 console? Yeah sure many of you will argue i'd rather get $1000 PC because that serves them for school and games. But take a minute and think about how many teenagers or university students who actually want to use a PC for school work want a tower? - 90% nowdays ask for laptops. Again, a PC doesnt solve their gaming problem at a reasonable cost. Of course PC gaming wont go away any time soon, but consoles will continue to outsell PC games even more and more due to these reasons. Add to the fact that developers will want to code for greatest number of users for largest revenue. Console games will probably outsell PC games 10:1 from 5:1 now. As the PC gaming market will continue to remain fairly stagnant, I see console market only increase in growth over time.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: RussianSensation

Originally posted by: Kensai
Actually, Xbox360 hasn't been released yet and it won't be for a while, so PCs will have a chance to surpass it.

Yeah but that wont happen. Because R500 for Xbox is a graphics processor that corresponds to roughly R600 for PC. PC will only get R520 this fall which is 1 generation behind R500 for xbox. PS3 and Revolution will be even more powerful. Like some said above, I'd say Xbox 360 is 1 year behind in graphics (assuming R600 is released November 2006 from Xbox360's release date) and 2+ years behind in CPU speed given that it can process 6 threads. I would tend to think developers will not exploit full power of the platform about 2 years from now, but I dont have doubts that many games even in the first year will utilize the multi-core aspect of the system right away.

oh, not quite . . . r520 is just a dumbed-down version of r500
(you don't think M$ will let ATI get away with using ITS money to make a faster PC GPU this gen, do you?)

expect unlocked pipes and a speed bump to get it 'close' with the Spring Refresh . . 'sli' will do "more" . . . otoh, r600 - late next year will offer roughly double the performance of the xbox360 GPU . . . and with a dual-core "sli'd" r620, the xbox will be left in the dust (HW speaking)

[if history is any indication of the future] 😉

. . . AND for the PC: dedicated physics processors, superfast multicore CPUs, huge amounts of RAM, sli'd multi-core GPUs and DX 10 will give the PC a huge advantage . . . this is only a year to 2 years away!!!
:shocked:

of course you gotta have $$$
😛

 

[Insomniak]

I'm with Apoppin' - every time a new batch of consoles launch, doom and gloom is proclaimed for the PC.

I see nothing new to the pattern here.

 

[Insomniak]

Originally posted by: RussianSensation
Most ppl dont realize there are kids who walk in into the store and still buy $199 9600XTs at Futureshop or $299 9800Pros. There are so many PCs sold with integrated graphics for 1 grand and those same kids ask their parents for a new pc in hopes of gaming but get junk. Consoles simplify the decision making for parents by providing a dedicated (even if inferior to PCs system) that costs MUCH less and gives parents less headaches. Add to the fact that there are no driver compatibility issues and no hassles with viruses or BSODs and lock ups. Ask yourself, if your son/daughter wanted to play games, would you buy them a $1000 PC or a $300 console? Yeah sure many of you will argue i'd rather get $1000 PC because that serves them for school and games. But take a minute and think about how many teenagers or university students who actually want to use a PC for school work want a tower? - 90% nowdays ask for laptops. Again, a PC doesnt solve their gaming problem at a reasonable cost. Of course PC gaming wont go away any time soon, but consoles will continue to outsell PC games even more and more due to these reasons.

This is part of the problem - right now gaming is seen as something for kids. I have a feeling that as the video game generation gets into its 20s and 30s, we're going to see that change.

The industry still has a lot of growing pains to get through - but in a couple decades, I predict games will be a bigger entertainment force than movies and music combined.

 

[imported_michaelpatrick33]

I have a felling that when the XBOX 360 rolls out in November the gaming experience will not be ahead of the PC experience. Computer games are already reaching 1600 x 1200 levels and by the time the XBOX 360 has games that fully maximize the hardware PC Game hardware will be ahead. Everyone is drooling over three 3.2 ghrtz processors and their theoretical output but I have a feeling a dualcore AMD would hold its own quite nicely. We shall see.

 

[BenSkywalker]

how does the 6800u do? is it because ATI cards are forced to used SM 1 instead of 3?

6800U handles it perfectly- but it isn't because of the shader model revision. I think that the heavy useage of shader model revision numbers to denote graphics card functionality has made it easy to overlook the fact that certain features the parts have are not supported directly under DirectX in an obvious fashion(in terms of falling neatly under shader version x.x). You can pull up quotes from Danny LePage(IIRC) explaining out exactly how they handle the shadowing used on nV parts and why it can't be done on ATi hardware(reasonably, it is possible if recoded but would be orders of magnitude slower). BTW- I'm talking about the original SplinterCell, years old and still can't run full featured on any ATi part to date.

Generally PC Gfx on o top-of-the-line machine looks MUCH better than current console gfx.

Of course they do. I game on all the platforms and am under no dellusions.

And i am betting 'a year'.
(18 months for mainstream games)

Two and a half years before we see it in game if we are very lucky. Look at what Halo did to PC hardware years after it hit the XBox. Don't underestimate what fixed hardware offers nor how much low end parts hinder gaming development.

See above. The consoles can barely struggle through those games, when the games are dumbed down specifically for them. I wouldn't call that equity.

Think it through now. Put your quote that I responded to together with my reply and then your follow up and think about it for a few minutes. Perhaps you will get it.

This is part of the problem - right now gaming is seen as something for kids. I have a feeling that as the video game generation gets into its 20s and 30s, we're going to see that change.

The average age of gamers is in their mid to late 20s now- my generation was the 'gaming generation' and many of us are closer to 40 then 30.

the death of PC gaming gfx has already been predected . . . over and over, again and again - with EACH new launch of a console gaming platform - for many years now.

You certainly won't be finding any quotes of me saying any such thing. PC gaming won't change significantly because of the new consoles, it will remain the marginal player it has always been.

once the next gen cards come out, the xbox 2 will be beaten. think about this: a good gaming pc has a separate sound card for audio, a huge power supply, and everything else in it runs on its own silicon chip, but on the xbox 2, the processors have to handle everything them selves.

Actually, the XB2 will have dedicated sound hardware, a power supply that can push all it needs on top of having UMA for general system topography and eDRAM for the back buffer- vastly superior setup when looking at gaming.

 

[Insomniak]

Originally posted by: BenSkywalker
Two and a half years before we see it in game if we are very lucky. Look at what Halo did to PC hardware years after it hit the XBox. Don't underestimate what fixed hardware offers nor how much low end parts hinder gaming development.

Heh, Halo runs like a turd because the port was coded terribly.

Originally posted by: BenSkywalker
Think it through now. Put your quote that I responded to together with my reply and then your follow up and think about it for a few minutes. Perhaps you will get it.

Yeah, I know, you think PCs will be struggling through Xbox 360s launch titles if they're ported over.

I don't think so.

Originally posted by: BenSkywalker
The average age of gamers is in their mid to late 20s now- my generation was the 'gaming generation' and many of us are closer to 40 then 30.

Not neccesarily - video games as a home institution didn't really start to show up until the original NES. Sure, there were systems before that - Atari comes to mind - but that one really blew the doors off the whole idea. Now video games are a household term.

I think of it as two generations - yours, which to me was more the arcade generation and is entering its 30s/40s, and mine, the console/PC generation starting in the early 90s (when we were all 6 or 7ish), which is breaking into the 20s now.

It depends on how you define it. Gaming for me took off with the original NES for consoles, and Doom brought me into the PC fold (as I'm sure is the case for many others).

Originally posted by: BenSkywalker
You certainly won't be finding any quotes of me saying any such thing. PC gaming won't change significantly because of the new consoles, it will remain the marginal player it has always been.

I agree.

Originally posted by: BenSkywalker
Actually, the XB2 will have dedicated sound hardware, a power supply that can push all it needs on top of having UMA for general system topography and eDRAM for the back buffer- vastly superior setup when looking at gaming.

The only thing that makes me wonder about 360 is the watercooling - consoles do like to get moved rather regularly, hope that thing doesn't leak easily.

 

[Macro2]

Dumb question probably.

Can an X-box 360 be used as a PC? Keyboard, mouse, VGA out, Windows OS?

 

[Excelsior]

Originally posted by: Insomniak

Originally posted by: BenSkywalker
Two and a half years before we see it in game if we are very lucky. Look at what Halo did to PC hardware years after it hit the XBox. Don't underestimate what fixed hardware offers nor how much low end parts hinder gaming development.

Heh, Halo runs like a turd because the port was coded terribly.

Originally posted by: BenSkywalker
Think it through now. Put your quote that I responded to together with my reply and then your follow up and think about it for a few minutes. Perhaps you will get it.

Yeah, I know, you think PCs will be struggling through Xbox 360s launch titles if they're ported over.

I don't think so.

Originally posted by: BenSkywalker
The average age of gamers is in their mid to late 20s now- my generation was the 'gaming generation' and many of us are closer to 40 then 30.

Not neccesarily - video games as a home institution didn't really start to show up until the original NES. Sure, there were systems before that - Atari comes to mind - but that one really blew the doors off the whole idea. Now video games are a household term.

I think of it as two generations - yours, which to me was more the arcade generation and is entering its 30s/40s, and mine, the console/PC generation starting in the early 90s (when we were all 6 or 7ish), which is breaking into the 20s now.

It depends on how you define it. Gaming for me took off with the original NES for consoles, and Doom brought me into the PC fold (as I'm sure is the case for many others).

Originally posted by: BenSkywalker
You certainly won't be finding any quotes of me saying any such thing. PC gaming won't change significantly because of the new consoles, it will remain the marginal player it has always been.

I agree.

Originally posted by: BenSkywalker
Actually, the XB2 will have dedicated sound hardware, a power supply that can push all it needs on top of having UMA for general system topography and eDRAM for the back buffer- vastly superior setup when looking at gaming.

The only thing that makes me wonder about 360 is the watercooling - consoles do like to get moved rather regularly, hope that thing doesn't leak easily.

I think, and most people agree with me, that what he meant by water cooling was really just a heatpipe setup.

 

[w00t]

Originally posted by: knothead34
dont forget most companys try to get 5 years out of a console. new vid cards come out about every year. not even mentioning processors. so yeah at release its gonna be nice..after its been out a while next gen pc cards will be out or in the works and even newer processors.

🙂 esp

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: BenSkywalker

how does the 6800u do? is it because ATI cards are forced to used SM 1 instead of 3?

6800U handles it perfectly- but it isn't because of the shader model revision. I think that the heavy useage of shader model revision numbers to denote graphics card functionality has made it easy to overlook the fact that certain features the parts have are not supported directly under DirectX in an obvious fashion(in terms of falling neatly under shader version x.x). You can pull up quotes from Danny LePage(IIRC) explaining out exactly how they handle the shadowing used on nV parts and why it can't be done on ATi hardware(reasonably, it is possible if recoded but would be orders of magnitude slower). BTW- I'm talking about the original SplinterCell, years old and still can't run full featured on any ATi part to date.

the only reason i mentioned nVidia is because you were comparing the xbox Splinter Cell's shadows as though it were superior to the PCs and not just an ati "problem". . . . and i do tend to oversimplify my answers since we are talking in generalities anyway

Generally PC Gfx on o top-of-the-line machine looks MUCH better than current console gfx.

Of course they do. I game on all the platforms and am under no dellusions.[/quote]

it appeared to me that you were trying to say the xbox was keeping up with PC gfx . . . it is not - that's why there is the 360.

And i am betting 'a year'.
(18 months for mainstream games)

Two and a half years before we see it in game if we are very lucky. Look at what Halo did to PC hardware years after it hit the XBox. Don't underestimate what fixed hardware offers nor how much low end parts hinder gaming development.[/quote]

here's where we totally disagree . . . for the PC: dedicated physics processors, superfast multicore CPUs, huge amounts of RAM, sli'd multi-core GPUs and DX 10 will give the PC a huge advantage in less than two years - for the very best PCs

This is part of the problem - right now gaming is seen as something for kids. I have a feeling that as the video game generation gets into its 20s and 30s, we're going to see that change.

The average age of gamers is in their mid to late 20s now- my generation was the 'gaming generation' and many of us are closer to 40 then 30.[/quote]

What does that make me? ancient? i am the Pong generation. but i agree, gamers are in their late 20s to 30s and games are already BIGGER than the movies.

the death of PC gaming gfx has already been predected . . . over and over, again and again - with EACH new launch of a console gaming platform - for many years now.

You certainly won't be finding any quotes of me saying any such thing. PC gaming won't change significantly because of the new consoles, it will remain the marginal player it has always been.[/quote]

i never said you did . . . i just don't see the PC ever being marginalized as games are developed on them and there is always the highest end user/player who will PAY for the best . . . and then there is ATI/nVidia . . . although console GPUs may become their bread and butter, their LOVE is for PC graphics and it will always be superior to consoles . . . ultimately

once the next gen cards come out, the xbox 2 will be beaten. think about this: a good gaming pc has a separate sound card for audio, a huge power supply, and everything else in it runs on its own silicon chip, but on the xbox 2, the processors have to handle everything them selves.

Actually, the XB2 will have dedicated sound hardware, a power supply that can push all it needs on top of having UMA for general system topography and eDRAM for the back buffer- vastly superior setup when looking at gaming.[/quote]
as i said, physics processors are shortly here for the PC along with unlimited RAM, multil core CPUs, multi core and sli'd GPUs, superfast HDs . . . and when DX 10 hits - next year - the PC gets another "boost".

The console fans better hope that programmers get more efficient as they try to adapt next gen Unreal3+ Engine's most demanding new features to the 360's old HW . . . by late '07 you're gonna be looking forward to xbox720

 

[ponyo]

I'm most excited about the prospect of Home Theater Gaming with these next gen consoles. By the time Xbox 360 and PS3 are released, 720p DLP and LCD front projectors should've come down in price significantly. Gaming on Xbox 360 + something like Panny AE700 or Benq PE7700 at 720p = bliss. I've been looking for a reason to upgrade my projector. Xbox 360 gives me one.

 

[hippotautamus]

I think everyone is missing an important fact here. It doesn't MATTER that PC hardware will catch up with console hardware. Coding directly to the hardware is a huge advantage for console developers that will allow them to keep their lead for a LONG time yet. It doesn't matter what version of DirectX comes out for PCs, since the Xbox 360 will barely even use DirectX. It writes commands straight to the VGA, allowing it to be significantly faster than anything coming through true DirectX.

 

[BenSkywalker]

Heh, Halo runs like a turd because the port was coded terribly.

No, it isn't terribly coded- it is that intensive on hardware. Certain levels have nearly every pixel on screen shaded with varrying complexity.

Yeah, I know, you think PCs will be struggling through Xbox 360s launch titles if they're ported over.

They will need to be scaled down to run on the PC, much as the current best of the PC market needs to be scaled down to run on the consoles.

Not neccesarily - video games as a home institution didn't really start to show up until the original NES.

You are really showing your youth with that comment.

I think of it as two generations - yours, which to me was more the arcade generation and is entering its 30s/40s, and mine, the console/PC generation starting in the early 90s (when we were all 6 or 7ish), which is breaking into the 20s now.

We had our Ataris in the 70s, along with our Pong boxes- home gaming was very strong prior to 1984 for quite some time(and then came the crash).

the only reason i mentioned nVidia is because you were comparing the xbox Splinter Cell's shadows as though it were superior to the PCs and not just an ati "problem". . . . and i do tend to oversimplify my answers since we are talking in generalities anyway

I mentioned SC's shadows as an example of how clearly 'inferior' hardware can give clearly superior results when optimal code is used.

here's where we totally disagree . . . for the PC: dedicated physics processors, superfast multicore CPUs, huge amounts of RAM, sli'd multi-core GPUs and DX 10 will give the PC a huge advantage in less than two years - for the very best PCs

And in theory PCs had an edge over the XBox inside of six months- try to find a game on the PC that could come close to DOA3 from anywhere near that time era. HL2 is the first that can give it a run for its money in terms of model complexity and animation and even then some of the details such as the hair in DOA3 are still clearly superior on the XBox- and that was a launch title. According to Carmack you should expect a roughly 100% improvement in performance coding to dedicated hardware- how long before that hits for the PCs and then how long before games are actually coded for that level of power?

What does that make me? ancient? i am the Pong generation. but i agree, gamers are in their late 20s to 30s and games are already BIGGER than the movies.

You are part of my generation(GenX, aren't you?).

i never said you did . . . i just don't see the PC ever being marginalized

It already is marginalized. Sweeney is already planning on the U3 engine being more popular on the consoles then on the PC- if that is not an indication of marginalization I don't know what is.

as i said, physics processors are shortly here for the PC along with unlimited RAM, multil core CPUs, multi core and sli'd GPUs, superfast HDs . . . and when DX 10 hits - next year - the PC gets another "boost".

Tripple core CPU, UMA, and a 200GB/sec+ eDRAM back buffer are not going to be easy to overcome. WGF(DX10) is already the XB360's development environment.

The console fans better hope that programmers get more efficient as they try to adapt next gen Unreal3+ Engine's most demanding new features to the 360's old HW . . . by late '07 you're gonna be looking forward to xbox720

Not really, the XBox360 is rather easily the weakest console this generation. Wait until you see what Sony and even Nintendo have coming.

 

[robertcloud]

Even XBOX 1 is looking damn good in 1080i even now compared to the latest games.

I just want native keyboard/mouse support for console games. I mean is it really that hard? PS2 has 2 standard USB ports, why can't I use the controls I want?

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: BenSkywalker

here's where we totally disagree . . . for the PC: dedicated physics processors, superfast multicore CPUs, huge amounts of RAM, sli'd multi-core GPUs and DX 10 will give the PC a huge advantage in less than two years - for the very best PCs

And in theory PCs had an edge over the XBox inside of six months- try to find a game on the PC that could come close to DOA3 from anywhere near that time era. HL2 is the first that can give it a run for its money in terms of model complexity and animation and even then some of the details such as the hair in DOA3 are still clearly superior on the XBox- and that was a launch title. According to Carmack you should expect a roughly 100% improvement in performance coding to dedicated hardware- how long before that hits for the PCs and then how long before games are actually coded for that level of power?

not just in theory, the GF4 is a superior GPU to the Xbox GPU and 1Ghz came very quickly for the PC. The 9700p was the GPU that literally blew it away. And there were the Demos and 3DMark0X to show what could be done . . . it took SOFTWARE another (1) YEAR to catch up [beginning with Unreal II] - and then continuing with truly superior game gfx . . . the latest crop we are playing now. HOWEVER, things are a changing. Engines are being developed to greatly shorten the programmer's time from idea to completion . . . soon, i envision a project that will co-ordinate the game with the movie so a truly 'polished' game will be ready when the movie is released.

We DO know Unreal 3 is due next year with some pretty advanced gfx capabilities that the new consoles can take advantage of . . . but then with the launch of Longhorn and then DX10 the following year, the PC will continue to excel while xbox360 programmers struggle to stay up with their aging HW.

And PC HW is set for another 'leap' with 1) multicore CPUs that will soon exceed 4Ghz; 2) Multicore and SLI'd GPUs that by r620 in another year will have ~4x the processing power of the x360;3) Physics processors, unlimited RAM and super-fast HDs will have MS and Sony looking forward to the NEXT next gen of consoles.

i believe PC gaming is just starting to take off

.

What does that make me? ancient? i am the Pong generation. but i agree, gamers are in their late 20s to 30s and games are already BIGGER than the movies.

You are part of my generation(GenX, aren't you?).[/quote]

No, baby boomer

i never said you did . . . i just don't see the PC ever being marginalized

It already is marginalized. Sweeney is already planning on the U3 engine being more popular on the consoles then on the PC- if that is not an indication of marginalization I don't know what is.[/quote]

That's not what he said . . .

as i said, physics processors are shortly here for the PC along with unlimited RAM, multil core CPUs, multi core and sli'd GPUs, superfast HDs . . . and when DX 10 hits - next year - the PC gets another "boost".

Tripple core CPU, UMA, and a 200GB/sec+ eDRAM back buffer are not going to be easy to overcome. WGF(DX10) is already the XB360's development environment.[/quote]

Sure it is, give it 'a year' for HW . . . another year for SW. . . and WGF is not DX10.

The console fans better hope that programmers get more efficient as they try to adapt next gen Unreal3+ Engine's most demanding new features to the 360's old HW . . . by late '07 you're gonna be looking forward to xbox720

Not really, the XBox360 is rather easily the weakest console this generation. Wait until you see what Sony and even Nintendo have coming.[/quote]of course, and within a year after their launch - 'ho hum'

 

[0roo0roo]

And in theory PCs had an edge over the XBox inside of six months- try to find a game on the PC that could come close to DOA3 from anywhere near that time era. HL2 is the first that can give it a run for its money in terms of model complexity and animation and even then some of the details such as the hair in DOA3 are still clearly superior on the XBox- and that was a launch title. According to Carmack you should expect a roughly 100% improvement in performance coding to dedicated hardware- how long before that hits for the PCs and then how long before games are actually coded for that level of power?

yea stuff like Doa ultimate http://media.xbox.ign.com/media/566/566556/imgs_1.html and ninja gaiden for xbox still look amazing. http://www.xbox.com/en-us/ninjagaiden/default.htm http://www.gamespot.com/xbox/action/ninjagaiden/

 

[BenSkywalker]

not just in theory, the GF4 is a superior GPU to the Xbox GPU and 1Ghz came very quickly for the PC.

The GF4 is essentially identical to the NV2A. GHZ processors were out prior to the XBox.

The 9700p was the GPU that literally blew it away. And there were the Demos and 3DMark0X to show what could be done . . .

What could be done is nice, when will we see anything resmebling the nature test in 3DM03(forget anything in '05)? Haven't had anything remotely close yet in game.

it took SOFTWARE another (1) YEAR to catch up [beginning with Unreal II]

The U2 engine doesn't push the XBox by default, what are you talking about? It is a DX7 based engine with marginal support for a few basic shaders utilized in DX8. U2 is available and runs without issue on the XBox.

Engines are being developed to greatly shorten the programmer's time from idea to completion . . . soon, i envision a project that will co-ordinate the game with the movie so a truly 'polished' game will be ready when the movie is released.

You mean like they already have been doing for years? We can look to last years SpiderMan2 or last weeks Episode3 launch or any number of titles in the past. Ignoring that though, the major issue with upcoming games is going to be art assets- they will be several orders of magnitude more labor intensive then coding.

We DO know Unreal 3 is due next year with some pretty advanced gfx capabilities that the new consoles can take advantage of . . .

With ease. Unreal3 is far removed from being a good example of what the new generation of consoles can push. It may seem like the holy grail to PC gamers ATM, but check out the NBA2K6 clip circulating around. Unreal3 looks quaint in comparison.

but then with the launch of Longhorn and then DX10 the following year

They are now working under WGF- that is straight from MS and has been widely discussed for a couple of years now.

And PC HW is set for another 'leap' with 1) multicore CPUs that will soon exceed 4Ghz

The EE runs at 300MHZ and pushes FLOPS comparable to a 1.7GHZ P4(utilizing SSE2, its' FPU isn't remotely close)- but the EE hit in 1999 while the comparable desktop part hit Q2 '01. The 4GHZ multi core CPUs on the horizon aren't close to comparable to that offered in the XB360, forget about Cell.

2) Multicore and SLI'd GPUs that by r620 in another year will have ~4x the processing power of the x360

With a quarter of the bandwidth that the XB360 has at peak and an enormous system memory bandwidth bottleneck.

3) Physics processors, unlimited RAM and super-fast HDs will have MS and Sony looking forward to the NEXT next gen of consoles.

RAM is the PC's biggest edge. Physics processors the PCs will absolutely require if it hopes to come close to the consoles anytime soon.

i believe PC gaming is just starting to take off

In relative terms it is in a state of decline right now. If not for 'The Sims' the PC gaming market would be looking extremely poor in relative terms.

No, baby boomer

D@mn dude.... you are old 😛 😉

Sure it is, give it 'a year' for HW . . . another year for SW. . . and WGF is not DX10.

As of right now there still isn't a consumer PC with system bandwidth that can match the original XBox- and the XB360 is a generational leap. As for "DX10"- it is rolled in to WGF. Much as the actual portion we are talking about- Direct3D- is rolled in to DirectX currently.

of course, and within a year after their launch - 'ho hum'

Four years later and still waiting for the PC that can match the XBox in everything. The PC is an extremely poor design in terms of a gaming platform, it needs brute force(which has been its strength) to overpower the consoles by a large margin before it can really compete- and even then it needs developer support. The typical(not top tier, typical) games for the PC coming out right now can't touch the top tier games hitting the XBox- and this is an 'obsolete' platform.

 

[Keysplayr]

Originally posted by: BenSkywalker

I don't think any of these statements are accurate. Since games like Gears of War are coming to the Xbox 360 and the PC at the same time, I think that says that next gen consoles will be about as capable as a top end PC when they launch

Using that same standard DooM3, FarCry and HL2 are all on or are shortly coming to the last gen consoles, so obviously they are as powerful as a top tier PC right now.... 😛

The X850XT😛E can't run the original SplinterCell with the same level of detail that the XBox can(can not enable the highest quality shadows)- do not underestimate the rift a fixed platform creates.

This may have been answered already but, don't consoles run at standard Television resolutions? 640x480 or maybe with the latest TVs one res higher? 8x6? To me, that doesn't seem to require much horsepower if this is correct. Meanwhile, todays highest end PC (SLI) can seemingly run games well above 1600x1200. And single high end usually get to 1600x1200 pretty easily. Correct me if I am mistaken. -Thanks.