PC 800 RDRAM

[icecube]

I just got my first system (IBM Netvista) with this type of memory. It came with 256 mb, and I'd like to add some more. Some ?s:

1) From what I've gleaned thus far, adding memory requires adding 2 sticks at a time, correct?
2) Are there any manufacturers of memory I should choose over others

General questions:

1) I know SDRAM is the old technology. What's the different between PC 800 RDRAM vs DDR Ram?
2) Is one or the other going to be in the majority of systems going forward?

 

[Adul]

from the AT FAQ

Rdram
DDR SDRAM

more memory stuff from the faq

yes you need to install in pairs.

check out samsung rdram. I would add 2 256 MB sticks. if i where you

 

[icecube]

Thanks for the info!

I read through the links. Still wondering which is better: DDR or RDRAM. I read that people seem to dislike RDRAM, but the article may have been outdated. Is there any majority opinion on it?

 

[Adul]

still the fastest memory for the p4. with ddr following close. should be interesting once the dual channel ddr chipset come out.

 

[zzzz]

What chipset does your motherboard have? Is it for P3 or P4? There was a P3 chipset (820??) in which you didn't have to install it in pairs. (you still need to use the crimm)
The 256 you have, is it 2*128 or 256mb and a crimm?

 

[icecube]

It's a P4 1600 and has 2x128 installed right now. Will probably require 2 more...

Got the system, brand new, off eBay for $300 a little over a month ago. 60 gb hd, dvd/cd-rw combo drive. Works great!

 

[mchammer187]

Originally posted by: icecube
It's a P4 1600 and has 2x128 installed right now. Will probably require 2 more...

Got the system, brand new, off eBay for $300 a little over a month ago. 60 gb hd, dvd/cd-rw combo drive. Works great!

thats a great deal is it a northwood?

 

[icecube]

Hmm, I don't think it is a Northwood. I didn't even know they had Northwoods on the P4 1600s...

I'll paste a link to the specs on IBM's site when I get home tomorrow...I don't have the model number handy...

 

[jstultz]

Originally posted by: Adul
still the fastest memory for the p4. with ddr following close. should be interesting once the dual channel ddr chipset come out.

The dual channel ddr chipset? You mean nForce?

Of course, doesn't exactly take advantage of it...

 

[icecube]

Here's a link to the specs. Doesn't say anything about Northwood...I'm guessing not.

My mistake-- it's a P4 1500, not 1600...

Originally posted by: mchammer187

thats a great deal is it a northwood?

 

[AnAndAustin]

Well in any case you can just add 1 RDRAM (RIMM/RAMBUS) module but you will need to put a CRIMM in the next vacant slot. Bear in mind this will severely effect the RAM throughput of your PC from 1600MB/s to 800MB/s, so basicly use PAIRS!

As for RIMM vs DDR, IMHO DDR is the wiser choice at the moment but I wouldn't suggest changing your mobo just to use it. DDR333 is easily on par with RIMM-PC800 and isn't far behind RIMM-PC1066, just check out both prices and availability! I believe Intel are doing a U-turn (albeit on the quiet) and now realise that DDR is currently the way to go. Intel P4 RIMM mobos don't use the ICH4 southbridge (IIRC USB2, AGP8x, ATA133 etc), they use the older ICH2. Intel P4 DDR mobos use ICH4 and it's well worth having for the future while Intel RIMM mobos are NOT certified to use ICH4. Of course USB2 can easily be added via PCI and ATA133 & AGP8x are more to do with marketing than performance at the moment, but I think the ICH factor does show Intel's quiet preference for DDR along with Intel's investament into dual cahnnel DDR. With RIMM being expensive and PC1066 rare AND with DDR400 and dual channel DDR on the horizon (not like nForce's shabby implimentation which only boosted the onboard GF2MX gfx), DDR is looking the better technology. DDR also o/c's far better than RIMM and is certainly more flexible and able to run very well async to the FSB, often RIMM becomes the limiting factor when o/c'ing. RIMM isn't dead nor poor perf-wise by any means, but if it was my money I'd spend it on DDR.

Here's some useful links:

DDR vs RIMM:
http://www17.tomshardware.com/mainboard/02q2/020501/index.html

DDR vs RIMM:
http://www.xbitlabs.com/mainboards/i845g-i845e/

Intel mobos using DDR:
http://www17.tomshardware.com/mainboard/02q2/020520/index.html

VIA P4 mobos using DDR:
http://www17.tomshardware.com/mainboard/02q2/020514/index.html

SiS P4 DDR333 mobos:
http://www17.tomshardware.com/mainboard/02q2/020403/index.html

Intel 845 mobos vs the rest:
http://www.xbitlabs.com/mainboards/i845g-i845gl/

P4 SiS645DX and sneak peak at DDR400:
http://www.xbitlabs.com/mainboards/sis645dx/

P4 mobos compared:
http://www.xbitlabs.com/mainboards/p4-chipsets-comparison/

Specifics on mobo (in this case P4 Skt423/478):
http://www17.tomshardware.com/mainboard/02q2/020422/chipset-07.html

TR Chipset reviews:
http://www.tech-report.com/reviews/chipsets.x

TR Mobo reviews:
http://www.tech-report.com/reviews/motherboards.x

Firing Squad (scroll to mobo section and check for 2002 dates):
http://firingsquad.gamers.com/hardware/

 

[icecube]

Thanks AnAndAustin! Very informative!

 

[Curley]

I must be missing something? All those review are great reviews and DDR is fast, but as some of the reviews point out, trying to find DDR400 at C2 is difficult and the stuff I did find, (Corsair XMS DDR) 256MB ($106 Pricewatch) cost way more that a stick of RDRAM (PC800) $77.00 pricewatch. The RDRAM seems to be the best bang fo the buck. You get the same or better performance and if you want to continue to lead the DDR/RDR debate, just buy a stick of RDRAM 1066 ($109, 256MB, Essential Computer) in which the DDR 400 works very hard to keep up with while the RDRAM is barely breaking a sweat.

This is what I see, but if someone can show me the light, I would love to stay away from an arm twisting company like rambus but when I buy parts, I buy with my hard earned money and not my heart.

Curley

 

[AnAndAustin]

Curley, if you read the reviews you don't need DDR400 to compete (and often beat) RIMM-PC800, DDR400 should be pretty level with RIMM-PC1066, and try finding prices and availability for PC1066! DDR400 will almost certainly be CL3.0 in the early days (it isn't even JEDEC yet!), CL2.5 shouldn't be far behind but DDR333 CL2.0 should be about as fast as DDR400 CL2.5 anyway, basicly DDR will continue development at a much faster pace then RIMM, as such by the time PC1066 is truly available and relatively cheap you'll probably find DDR-II is not only out but twice as fast!

As I mentioned before, RIMM sucks at o/c'ing AND must be dual matched (2x256MB RIMM-PC800 = 1x512MB DDR333), DDR is far more flexible and lets take a look at some prices shall we Mr RIMM () ...

Pricewatch.com:

1x256MB DDR266 $56
1x256MB DDR333 $62
1x256MB DDR400 $75
1x512MB DDR266 $102
1x512MB DDR333 $121
1x512MB DDR400 $162

2x128MB=256MB PC-800 $90
2x128MB=256MB PC1066 $136
2x256MB=512MB PC-800 $154
2x256MB=512MB PC1066 $258

256MB of RIMM-PC800 is 50% more expensive than DDR333, and 256MB RIMM-PC1066 is nearly twice the price of DDR400! Erm, bit of a price difference there, LOL.

 

[AndyHui]

RIMM sucks at o/c'ing

I disagree. Most low density PC800 RDRAM (8 or more device RIMMs) do very well at overclocking and most will reach PC1066 levels, and some even better.

There were numerous threads about this about 2 or 3 months ago.

 

[AnAndAustin]

Fair enough, but no RIMM o/c's as well as DDR, DDR with its much lower latency coupled with its fine ability to run async make DDR very suited to o/c'ing. Some RIMM-PC800 can function at 533FSB speeds but many o/c'ers want ot hit 600FSB and for that you will certainly need PC1066, and even then you are in no way guaranteed that the RAM won't be holding you back. In any case I admit I was perhaps too dosmissive of RIMM's o/c'ing ability, but it is still not as o/c'able as DDR and the prices and perf speak for themselves.

 

[AndyHui]

DDR with its much lower latency coupled with its fine ability to run async make DDR

The latency difference is nowhere near as big as it used to be, particularly as RDRAM's latency decreases as its frequency increases.

The i850E chipset can also run RDRAM asynchronously (downwards rather than upwards though).

Most boards, for both the i850 and i850E, offer a 3x and 4x multiplier.

Latency does not have much relevence to overclocking capabilities.

 

[Krk3561]

First off, he's not going to be o'cing with an IBM, its not an issue. Ice, If your system came with RDRAM then your motherboard will NOT support DDR so theres not really any reason to consider DDR. Samsung is a good brand for RDRAM. Also, the majority of newer systems will have dual channel DDR.

 

[SteelCityFan]

You do need to get two sticks. Samsung is the brand of choice for the most part. Corsair ASAIK uses Samsung Chips so they are close.

Since you won't be overclocking you don't have to worry about which density will overclock better. The high density RDRAM chips have slightly less latency, but don't overclock as well (but it does not matter for you). These would be...

128MB sticks with 4 devices (or chips).
256MB sticks with 8 devices (or chips).

When I was hunting for RDRAM bargains a couple months ago, I think Googlegear had the lowest prices at about $75 for a 256MB stick. They also clearly list the # of devices.

I ended up getting the memory from a local place for a buck or 2 more, but saved shipping.

 

[Curley]

Great arguements, almost like the days of AMD and Intel. But "right here", "right now", the best performer is undoubtedly PC1066 without breaking a sweat. Maybe in the "future" DDR may catch up. It is even the best bang for the buck compared to high end DDR required to even try to keep up with PC800 let alone PC1066.

Your comments are completely right if and when these CL2 sticks of DDR 400 come out approved by JDEC.

Curley

 

[AnAndAustin]

AndyHui and particularly Krk3561, half of the purpose of this thread was about DDR vs RIMM and not simply o/c'ing or icecube's IBM PC.

QUOTE icecube:
"General questions:
1) I know SDRAM is the old technology. What's the different between PC 800 RDRAM vs DDR Ram?
2) Is one or the other going to be in the majority of systems going forward? "

Hence why I was covering it, RIMM is certainly still very fine, but DDR certainly seems to be the future. If you have RIMM, cool, it's still excellent, if you are buying a new PC then I would rec DDR, if you want the best and are prepared to pay for it then RIMM-PC1066 is undeniably top dog. But DDR333 is cheaper and better than RIMM-PC800, in fact on a 533FSB DDR266 CL2.0 is VERY close to RIMM-PC800 too.

QUOTE Krk3561: "Also, the majority of newer systems will have dual channel DDR."

Well when it is finished that is true but currently no system uses true dual DDR, when they do it should make RIMM completely pointless.

 

[Curley]

Intel P4 RIMM mobos don't use the ICH4 southbridge (IIRC USB2, AGP8x, ATA133 etc), they use the older ICH2. Intel P4 DDR mobos use ICH4 and it's well worth having for the future while Intel RIMM mobos are NOT certified to use ICH4. Of course USB2 can easily be added via PCI and ATA133 & AGP8x are more to do with marketing than performance at the moment, but I think the ICH factor does show Intel's quiet preference for DDR along with Intel's investament into dual cahnnel DDR.

Call me crazy but when I lay a motherboard into a case, I want stability and reliability, not intergration. I see many complaints about the I850E not using ICH4 but the quote below explains the reason why and I might add is a dam good one. Although Intel has left it up to the motherboard manufacturers for workarounds, I would rather use a PCI card than sacrifice my overclocking ability. I actually look before I buy an I850/E motherboard to make sure it doesn't have ICH4. This is just my mad way of thinking and is not my opinion but I guess it would be called fact. Intel did offer PCI USB 2.0 cards with the release of some I850E boards. I believe things have changed since it's release.

"The voltage of the 850E northbridge is 1.8V, while the voltage of ICH4 is 1.5V. If a motherboard manufacturer wanted to make this configuration work it's possible, but only by adjusting the voltage of the chips against their specifications," an Asus spokeswoman wrote. "The result is a board that doesn't follow specifications, which is also less stable and may have long-term reliability issues. "For ASUS, the 850E with ICH2 is a natural fit," she added. "With both northbridge and southbridge voltages being an identical 1.8V, stability and reliability is not sacrificed. "

Curley

 

[icecube]

Hi guys,

You're right...I won't be overclocking my pc. I mainly just wanted to know the difference between rdram and ddr ram and what the best brand of rdram was to buy for my upgrade. I am going to try to pick up a couple Samsung Rimms; maybe I'll buy 512 or 1 gig worth and sell my existing 256...

I thank you all for more than answering my questions. It's great to get lots of different insight from everybody!

-Ro

 

[CrazySaint]

Originally posted by: Curley
Great arguements, almost like the days of AMD and Intel. But "right here", "right now", the best performer is undoubtedly PC1066 without breaking a sweat. Maybe in the "future" DDR may catch up. It is even the best bang for the buck compared to high end DDR required to even try to keep up with PC800 let alone PC1066.

Your comments are completely right if and when these CL2 sticks of DDR 400 come out approved by JDEC.

Curley

PC1066 paired with i850E may be the fastest P4 platform, but in no way is it the most cost effective. I don't know where you get this talk about you need "high end DDR just to keep up with PC800 let alone PC1066" from, unless you consider DDR333 "high end" DDR, which I don't. The i845G paried with DDR333 RAM (and a 3:4 mem ratio enabled) will match PC800 and come very close to PC1066. In fact, PC1066 isn't even 10% faster (the minimum increase to even notice any kind of difference in speed) than DDR266! A 256MB stick of PC800 is about the same price as a 256MB stick of Corsair XMS DDR333 CAS2 which can easily OC to DDR400 (200MHz FSB or 150MHz FSB with 3:4 mem ratio) (and higher), whereas, it appears that PC800 will only OC to about PC1066 (133MHz FSB).

Call me crazy but when I lay a motherboard into a case, I want stability and reliability, not intergration. I see many complaints about the I850E not using ICH4 but the quote below explains the reason why and I might add is a dam good one. Although Intel has left it up to the motherboard manufacturers for workarounds, I would rather use a PCI card than sacrifice my overclocking ability. I actually look before I buy an I850/E motherboard to make sure it doesn't have ICH4. This is just my mad way of thinking and is not my opinion but I guess it would be called fact. Intel did offer PCI USB 2.0 cards with the release of some I850E boards. I believe things have changed since it's release.

"The voltage of the 850E northbridge is 1.8V, while the voltage of ICH4 is 1.5V. If a motherboard manufacturer wanted to make this configuration work it's possible, but only by adjusting the voltage of the chips against their specifications," an Asus spokeswoman wrote. "The result is a board that doesn't follow specifications, which is also less stable and may have long-term reliability issues. "For ASUS, the 850E with ICH2 is a natural fit," she added. "With both northbridge and southbridge voltages being an identical 1.8V, stability and reliability is not sacrificed. "

If anything, that's an argument against RDRAM because there are plenty of i845G boards with ICH4 that overclock extremly well and are stable. If RDRAM can't handle ICH4 and still be stable and/or OC, then that's a knock against it, IMO.

 

[icecube]

Thought I had this all figured out, but now I have another question:

Do I want ECC or non-ECC RDRAM??

Here's a link to my system again...