Patenting ideas

[fustercluck]

I've got a good idea for a food product (i won't post it or else someone will steal it and make billions! ) I'm not sure how to go about patenting the idea though, or if it's even possible for a food product. Basically i don't know anything about patenting, or how much it costs. ATOT is the best resource for weird info, so i figure someone will give a good explanation.

Also i'm not sure how to pitch my idea to companies once i patent it (if i can). All companies that i've emailed about my idea (not telling them what my idea was either, just asking if i could propose the idea in person, probably with a lawyer present...or maybe that would be unnecessary) give me an auto response saying they won't accept unsolicited ideas, yadda yadda yadda. So i don't know how to make money off my good idea. I'm just trying to make some caysh like everyone else. Any helpful info would be appreciated, who knows, one day when i'm a multi millionaire, i might even compensate you for your info (well...it COULD happen )

 

[newnameman]

Give up.

 

[So]

Patenting is expensive...probably thousands upon thousands of dollars to actually get it done. You'd better have a REALLY good idea.

 

[PowerMacG5]

Patent lawyers FTW.

 

[DaveSimmons]

Google and wiki should have some good info on "how do I patent", along with eleventy billion scam offers to "help" you with your idea.

It's going to take thousands of dollars to file a patent, at which point you are still almost nowhere since as you mention food companies won't even talk to you.

So you decide to sell directly, that will take thousands, maybe even tens or hundreds of thousands more.

Then if you do have any success, the big companies will see if they can duplicate your idea without infringing your patent, or get your patent invalidated, or offer you $10K to give up your rights.

In short, you need more than an idea, you need a really good idea that's impossible to copy, plus a huge amount of money to build a market for your idea.

 

[chusteczka]

Judge the marketability of this idea before investing any money into it since obtaining a patent is completely different from marketing and selling a product or licensing the patent to allow someone else to market and sell a product.

I believe food can be patented if the patent covers composition of the food or a unique, novel, unobvious, and useful method of manufacture of said food. However, with food, all it takes is one recipe or custom from some rare part of the world to invalidate said patent.

Companies will not discuss the idea with you since they will either steal it and use it without compensating you or they will be afraid you will sue them for any similar future product or method of manufacture they may develop. If they talk with you, they will limit their future development of new ideas but if they do not talk with you then they are free to create whatever they think of.

Methods of action include manufacturing, marketing, and selling the product yourself while keeping your idea as a trade secret or obtaining a patent. Once a patent is obtained then you are able to restrict others from manufacturing, marketing, and selling a product similar to your patent.

If you want to know how to start, you start by researching the patent archives and researching any related prior art (previous patents teaching your invention). You will want to improve upon any prior art already in existence. Here is the USPTO Search Page.

The other useful thing to do is read David Pressman's Patent it Yourself. My local library has four copies and they are usually unavailable.

Here is some information from the slides of a presentation I provided a couple years ago.

What can be patented?
Any person who invents or discovers any new and useful process, machine, manufacture, or composition of matter, or any new and useful improvement thereof, may obtain a patent.

• Process ? process, act, or method
• Manufacture ? articles which are made
• Composition of matter ? chemical compositions such as mixtures of ingredients and new chemical compounds.

What cannot be patented?

• Inventions useful solely in the utilization of special nuclear material or atomic energy for nuclear weapons (Atomic Energy Act of 1954)
• Non-useful or non-working machines, it must have utility
• Laws of nature, physical phenomena, and abstract ideas
• A patent cannot be obtained upon a mere idea or suggestion, a complete description is required.

Legal requirements for a utility patent

• Statutory Class Utility
• Novelty
• Unobviousness

Statutory Classes
Does the invention fit into one of five classes established by Congress?

• Process (method)
• Machine
• Article of manufacture
• Composition ? includes chemical composition
• Or, a "new use" of one of the first four.

Novelty

• Does the invention have an aspect that is different in any way from all previous inventions and knowledge?
  • Physical differences
  • New combinations
  • New use
• An invention cannot be patented if:
  • the invention was known or used by others in this country, or patented or described in a printed publication in this or a foreign country, before the invention thereof by the applicant for patent, or
  • the invention was patented or described in a printed publication in this or a foreign country or in public use or on sale in this country more than one year prior to the application for patent in the United States?

Unobviousness
A patent may be refused if the differences between the invention and prior art are obvious

• Prior art ? the state of knowledge existing before the date of the invention
• If someone skilled in the art would obviously consider the subject matter sought to be patented while implementing any prior art
• Substituting materials or changing size are ordinarily obvious
• New and unexpected results
• Three criteria for non-obviousness:
  • Commercial success
  • Long-felt but unsolved need
  • Failure of others to come up with your invention

EDIT: s/their/there/

 

[bersl2]

How does it work?

It doesn't.

 

[sandorski]

First, right the idea down thoroughly, put it into an envelope, mail it back to yourself, but don't open it. Store it away somewhere.

Second, make your food item.

Thirdly, find out about patenting A patent might be overkill for your idea, but I dunno(not a lawyer and have no idea what your idea is )

Fourthly, instead of contacting major Food manufacturers about it, just start making it and sell to local Stores/Restaurants(depending on what it is)

Fifthly, if people really(important) like the Product you sell, then consider your options. Maybe it would be best to continue expanding your business or maybe a manufacturer might be turned onto it.

Sixthly, Profit!

 

[chusteczka]

Originally posted by: sandorski
First, right the idea down thoroughly, put it into an envelope, mail it back to yourself, but don't open it. Store it away somewhere.

This concept is similar to an old wive's tale and I am not sure if it would hold up in the court of law as proof for date of conception. It could not hurt to do it though. However, the Provisional Patent Application was implemented to provide for such proof of concept. The provisional patent application allows an inventor to quickly jot down the concept of the invention and provide informal sketches to submit as proof of conception. A provisional patent application expires after one year so the inventor needs to ensure the patent application has been completed and submittted within that one year time period. A problem with provisional patent applications is they provide the possibility a US patent examiner may declare a "new matter" rejection on any differences between the patent application and the submitted provisional application. It may also be possible a provisional application may be used later to invalidate any patent received. Therefore it is a good idea to be as thorough as possible when submitting the provisional application. This aspect, for all its informal intentions, actually requires a knowledgeable patent attorney that is up to date with the latest information regarding provisional applications.

Originally posted by: sandorski
... Fifthly, if people really(important) like the Product you sell, then consider your options. Maybe it would be best to continue expanding your business or maybe a manufacturer might be turned onto it. ...

Success in the market is a strong argument for non-obviousness when applying and corresponding with the patent examiner. However, make certain to submit a (provisional) patent application within one year of the start of this business or the one year period will have been exceeded. Any invention publicly known in the U.S. for longer than one year is not patentable.


The rest of Sandorski's recommendations are perfect.

General Information Concerning Patents

 

[fustercluck]

Okie dokey. Thanks for the help/info. After i make my first million, checks are going out to chusteczka and sandorsk - Actually, it all sounds hella confusing, so maybe newnameman has the right idea.

Patenting might not be necessary for this food item i have in mind, and i can't afford getting a patent anyway. I can't afford much at all actually :disgust: - So i still don't know how or if i'm going to go about doing this. I didn't plan on making the said food item myself, though i suppose i could figure out how to make it if needed. I'm not looking to sell it just locally either, I really want to get this (still uninvented and only in my head) product everywhere. It wouldn't be spectacular or anything, but it would sell well enough to keep it in production i'm pretty sure. So many things to consider though. I'm kinda leaning toward forgetting about it. Then again, It's not like i have anything else to do, being out of school and having no job. Doing something entrepreneur-like could be the best thing for me to do, or i might just end up making a fool out of myself. Either way, thanks for the info.

 

[everman]

What you need to do is think of a very general idea to patent. Something so obvious that nobody bothered to patent it.
Now you have your patent.
Sue everybody
????
Profit!

 

[sandorski]

sweeet

May you become the Bill Gates of food!

 

[axelfox]

Originally posted by: So
Patenting is expensive...probably thousands upon thousands of dollars to actually get it done. You'd better have a REALLY good idea.

:thumbsup: Find a patent attorney that will do a free consultation. Generally, they are bound my attorney-client privilege even if you don't hire them.

 

[chusteczka]

Originally posted by: axelfox

Originally posted by: So
Patenting is expensive...probably thousands upon thousands of dollars to actually get it done. You'd better have a REALLY good idea.

:thumbsup: Find a patent attorney that will do a free consultation. Generally, they are bound my attorney-client privilege even if you don't hire them.

The process is not so expensive if you do most of the work yourself. There are three main components to a patent application:

• specification
• claims
• drawings.

As referenced below, do the leg work yourself by searching through the prior art. Learn how patents are constructed by reading the referenced book and by reading all the prior art patents you can find that are similar to your invention. The concept of plagiarism does not exist with patents. It is perfectly legitimate to take someone else's patent, make small improvements, and submit it as your application.

Learn how the specification is made by reading the specifications of patents similar to your invention. Learn how the claims are constructed. Write the specification yourself. The specification is basically a paper that describes how to manufacture your invention. It provides the history of prior art and then explains how your invention improves on the prior art. Once you have written a specification that is similarly constructed to the work you have researched, then draft a few claims to focus on the improvements your invention bring to the prior art.

Once this work has been accomplished, then contact an attorney and let the attorney improve on your specification and your claims. In this manner you will both minimize the attorney's time, which will minimize your expenses, and you will be able to understand the discussion you have with the attorney without wasting time for the attorney to explain basic concepts to you.

Originally posted by: chusteczka
...
If you want to know how to start, you start by researching the patent archives and researching any related prior art (previous patents teaching your invention). You will want to improve upon any prior art already in existence. Here is the USPTO Search Page.

The other useful thing to do is read David Pressman's Patent it Yourself. My local library has four copies and they are usually unavailable. ...

 

[fustercluck]

Thanks again, Chusteczka. I'm curious as to why you know so much about patenting?

I'm not sure where to start, i guess i could check out that Patent it Yourself book, but...600+ pages? Ouch! - I'm still not sure if it's even necessary/possible for the product i have in mind. Guess it wouldn't hurt to try and figure some things out though, libraries are still free right? Haven't been to one since Elementary

 

[Remaker22]

Just curious what you trying to potent jacktackle, you can tell with one word it wont uncover your sicret , is it cake or sandwich?

 

[Harvey]

Before you show your idea to anyone, the first thing you need is a good, inventor-oriented document variously known as a disclosure document, or nondisclosure document or NDA. Do NOT automatically sign one provided by anyone from a company where you want to show your invention without having it reviewed by someone who speaks legalese and is on your side. It will almost certainly be full of loopholes and escape clauses that make it easy for them to get off the hook.

I am an inventor with two patents. If you want a good one from an inventor's viewpoint, I'll be glad to give you a generic form of the one my late partner and I developed which has been reviewed and approved by a number of attorneys.

The next thing you need to know is, you don't need a patent attorney. If you're serious enough to invest in protecting your idea, you can use a patent agent to apply for a patent. Patent agents can do everything a patent attorney can do except represent you in court if you ever get that far in defending your any patent you obtain. The most important difference is, the last time I filed for a patent, attorneys were charging over $300/hr. My patent agent charged me $75/hr.

There's more to know and do, but that's a start.

 

[fustercluck]

Dang, I offer checks to people who give good advice and then i get a bunch of smart people in this thread. Remember, I made no promises! - Hopefully things go well though and I'll of course be greatful by dealing some coin. Thanks Harvey.

Originally posted by: Remaker22
Just curious what you trying to potent jacktackle, you can tell with one word it wont uncover your sicret , is it cake or sandwich?

Well, you've heard of Triple fudge cake right? I want to take it to the next level. You guessed it. Quadruple fudge cake.


Just kidding of course, that's not my idea

I do hope my idea isn't too lame though, or hasn't already been patented or something (i couldn't find it on the US patent search), I'm sure some worser ideas have made lotsa cash.

 

[fustercluck]

bump, hopefully the good info posted in this thread will help out others, as i may not use the information unfortunately.

I'm kind of curious as to how i would make money off of this idea if i did everything right and it ended up being a successful product. Would i get a % out of every sale of said product or what?

 

[chusteczka]

Originally posted by: jacktackle
Thanks again, Chusteczka. I'm curious as to why you know so much about patenting?

I'm not sure where to start, i guess i could check out that Patent it Yourself book, but...600+ pages? Ouch! ...

Sorry to take so long to reply. The work week had commenced.

My experience concerning patents is through the efforts of attempting to obtain a few patents. My father-in-law is a professional mechanical engineer with 20+ patents. He learned how to obtain patents through his work and he has taught me how to go through the process as we attempt to push through a few home grown ideas. I am lucky in this regard although I am not lucky yet to receive a patent like Harvey is.

The book, Patent it Yourself, is very useful and you do not need to read it in entirety. The first few chapters will get you started and you read the next chapter as you need the information.

The issue regarding the difference between a patent agent and a patent attorney found me in a funny situation. I needed the help of an experienced attorney or agent. With the belief a patent agent would be cheaper, I first contacted a patent agent. The patent agent provided me an estimate of $40,000 to complete 4 applications that have already been started. His work would be minimal since we basically need him for advice on how to proceed and to review our submissions. With that cost in mind, I then called the most experienced patent attorney in the USPTO listing of patent attorneys near my location. I judged his experience based on the number of patents that were returned in a search that had his name on them. It turns out this experienced patent attorney is retired and is helping us for only the USPTO costs. He may charge us more later if we actually receive a patent but so far he has been down to earth and appears happy to be occupied with something to keep him busy and keep his wife off his back.

 

[Journer]

microwaveable special brownies?