Party Over Principle

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,030
2
61
After 7+ years of the Bush/Cheney administration, it is no wonder the Democrats look good. Many believe Obama will walk rather easily into the Oval Office.

As a conservative Republican, it makes me sick to my stomach to hear the voices of the remaining 28% of Americans who for some reason are still loyal to the Bush administration. But what I actually find more disgusting is the apologizing for the Democrats in Congress. They certainly are not as innocent as they are often perceived to be. Sure, next to the administration and the vast majority of Republicans in Congress, they sure can win some hearts.

But the Bush administration had very little opposition from the Democrats to the war in Iraq, nor it's continuous financing. Same goes for the Patriot Act. Nor from the issue of spying on Americans, a complete trampling on the Constitution and the rights of Americans.

With a now Democrat-controlled Congress, things don't seem any different. We're still in Iraq, there's still no end in sight. Sanctions are being placed on Iran, and even Obama is demonizing Iran. A country, much like Iraq, that is absolutely no danger to the US. When Bush does it, its "fear-mongering" and when the Democrats do it, it's called "pandering," you know, because the Jewish vote is important. More important than the truth.

Then there's the whole RIAA thing, the DMCA, the Democrats seem to like their Hollywood voters, err, corporate lobbyists, more than the rights of Americans.

Ok, I could go on, but I won't. It seems that we keep repeating a political process in this country. One party takes office, screws over the people, and the apologists are wearing a different team uniform. In the end, the people get the shaft, and half the country seems content with bitching and moaning while the other team is in control, while apologizing for their's when its in control. Rinse and repeat.

Do Americans really want change? If so, do they not understand what changes they need? Or are they just a bunch of people trying to find the perfect used car from the same two dealerships that keep selling them lemons?
 

Sinsear

Diamond Member
Jan 13, 2007
6,439
80
91
Neither party is in very good standing with me.

Bush pretty much went over the edge. While I support the war I will always remember how it has been mismanaged to death.

And as for the Dems, I just don't care for massive social entitlement programs, or for most of their failed promises from the '06 elections.

It's a clvsterfvck at this point over on Capitol Hill, and honestly I'm not sure what can really be done to fix it. Maybe throw em all out and start fresh, but that's not really viable either.
 

Pabster

Lifer
Apr 15, 2001
16,987
1
0
Washington is broken. There can be no doubt about that, regardless of which side of the aisle you happen to lean to.
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,399
3,947
126
I think Obama deserves a chance to reconcile these groups. Hopefully he will be one of those leaders that is able to listen to all sides and make real choices to help the country over all.

Lets say he doesn't lets say he is as bad as bush. I would rather have a horrible democratic president that would spend recklessly in our own country then one of these chicken hawks swinging our dicks all around the world.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
173
106
Originally posted by: bamacre
-snip-
Do Americans really want change?

I don't think that's in doubt.

Now what changes each of wants is a different matter.

Our problem is the two party system. You can only vote for who is on the ballot (write-in and 3rd party are just *throw-sway* protest votes to most of us).

It's like staring at the menu at dinner time and seeing only two choices - Red poop or blue poop. Do I want something else? H3ll yeah, but there's only two choices.

Fern
 
Feb 6, 2007
16,432
1
81
I hate both parties. A lot. I vote Democrat, because the lies they tell are more in line with what I would like to see done with government. But overall, both parties are ruled by money, which is predominantly controlled by corporate interests at the expense of the average citizen.

That said, I have not despised a politician so thoroughly as GWB in my life. I recall him making one single decision in his entire presidency that I supported, but I can't remember what it was. On everything else, he has been completely the opposite of me (and I think it's fitting that his approval rating is abysmal).
 

SAWYER

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
16,745
42
91
*applauds*

party apologists and finger pointers are what keeps the nasty cycle repeating.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
0
Originally posted by: Sinsear
Neither party is in very good standing with me.

Bush pretty much went over the edge. While I support the war I will always remember how it has been mismanaged to death.

And as for the Dems, I just don't care for massive social entitlement programs, or for most of their failed promises from the '06 elections.

It's a clvsterfvck at this point over on Capitol Hill, and honestly I'm not sure what can really be done to fix it. Maybe throw em all out and start fresh, but that's not really viable either.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There is some massive denial in the Sincear post. Maybe in the distant past, the democrats
were the party of unrestrained social spending, but in the modern era, both Reagan and GWB have outspent the democrats and run up the two largest deficits in US history.
And in terms of pork and earmarks, that too is significantly reduced after the election of 11/06.

Sincear maybe needs to learn myths are not only not always true, they are testable hypotheses. What part of a world record 3.6 Trillion addition to the national debt
added by GWB has Sincear missed. And most of it was added during the first six years.
 

SAWYER

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
16,745
42
91
I don't think Bush knows what the veto stamp looks like, it is a damn shame to see the Republicans trying to outspend the Dems, we used to at least have one party who tried to cut spending.
 

OrByte

Diamond Member
Jul 21, 2000
9,302
144
106
good points raised.

I only give credit to teh Ds in congress for making Bush and Co. change course wrt Iran. I think that if we had a Republican controlled congress we would be up to our eyeballs in war with Iran.

I guess too once the Ds took control of congress you began to see people like Gonzalez and Rove and others bail. That was nice.

but I agree the Ds are doing jack sh!t about the war and the domestic spying issue and corporate influence is as strong as ever.

dissappointed? definitely.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
349
126
I think a lot of people forget how much worse it is when the Republicans control Congress as well and give Bush even more license to do what he wants - and fail to investigate wrongdoing.

I don't think doing too little is as bad as doing large wrongs. The dems have made some efforts on reducing lobbyists' role (not enough) and investigating the administration (not enough).
 

SAWYER

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
16,745
42
91
LOL don't kid yourself, they are all the same crooked, self-serving bastards regardless of the letter by their name.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,095
513
126
Politics is a game. People act like they care when the other team is doing the same things. Then ignore the problems within their own party. In this thread we see prime examples of it. Making excuses for the democratic controlled congress's failures. Most common excuse of course is "remember the republicans". Yeah we do, wondering when they are going to get voted out. Tagging a D before your name then acting like the people you replace makes you just as wrong.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,940
49,660
136
Winner take all system = two party system.

It doesn't matter if they don't represent us, they will never go away unless one party collapses and is replaced by another monolithic party in its place. It is an insurmountable collective action problem.
 

SleepWalkerX

Platinum Member
Jun 29, 2004
2,649
0
0
And then we have the Libertarian party nominating Barr and Root. Ugh, both these guys are wannabe Libertarians.

I have no party..
 

Drift3r

Guest
Jun 3, 2003
3,572
0
0
Originally posted by: Genx87
Politics is a game. People act like they care when the other team is doing the same things. Then ignore the problems within their own party. In this thread we see prime examples of it. Making excuses for the democratic controlled congress's failures. Most common excuse of course is "remember the republicans". Yeah we do, wondering when they are going to get voted out. Tagging a D before your name then acting like the people you replace makes you just as wrong.

So who should they be replaced with? The last set of yahoos we got rid of in Congress? Sorry no thanks. I will coincide that this Dem Congress has failed at standing up against this horrible presidential administration.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,415
14,307
136
I don't like political parties in general, and would not be against the federal adoption of a nonpartisan system like Nebraska's state legislature.
 

Drift3r

Guest
Jun 3, 2003
3,572
0
0
Originally posted by: bamacre
After 7+ years of the Bush/Cheney administration, it is no wonder the Democrats look good. Many believe Obama will walk rather easily into the Oval Office.

As a conservative Republican, it makes me sick to my stomach to hear the voices of the remaining 28% of Americans who for some reason are still loyal to the Bush administration. But what I actually find more disgusting is the apologizing for the Democrats in Congress. They certainly are not as innocent as they are often perceived to be. Sure, next to the administration and the vast majority of Republicans in Congress, they sure can win some hearts.

But the Bush administration had very little opposition from the Democrats to the war in Iraq, nor it's continuous financing. Same goes for the Patriot Act. Nor from the issue of spying on Americans, a complete trampling on the Constitution and the rights of Americans.

Sorry but it was pretty hard for any Dem to stand up against an administration and GOP lead congress that would quickly label you "UnAmerican" and a "Terrorist lover". Especially when the majority of idiots in this nation were frothing at the mouth or scared witless enough to start the Iraq War.


With a now Democrat-controlled Congress, things don't seem any different. We're still in Iraq, there's still no end in sight. Sanctions are being placed on Iran, and even Obama is demonizing Iran. A country, much like Iraq, that is absolutely no danger to the US. When Bush does it, its "fear-mongering" and when the Democrats do it, it's called "pandering," you know, because the Jewish vote is important. More important than the truth.


It's the same crap. Pandering and fear mongering are both worthless acts that area determent to the system at large. Dem's appealing to the Jewish vote is done because they don't wont to be left behind in the electoral spending race. So they cave in and pander to the Israel lobby. Bush making Iran into the next world threat is this guy and his friends looking for a new distraction for the US public and new ways to bilk cash from US tax payers in order to put it into the hands of his friends.

Then there's the whole RIAA thing, the DMCA, the Democrats seem to like their Hollywood voters, err, corporate lobbyists, more than the rights of Americans.

Yeah they screwed up royally here and this why the system is screwed up. When you have so much money flowing into D.C. to skew votes what are you going to do as a politician? Say no to the money and let your opponent build up several million dollars in a political war chest?

The money flooding the system is the biggest reason why things are screwed up on both sides. Then you add in the demagoguery and bashing of networks like FOXNEWS and you see why even DEM's don't dare upset the foaming masses of freedom fries eaters.

Ok, I could go on, but I won't. It seems that we keep repeating a political process in this country. One party takes office, screws over the people, and the apologists are wearing a different team uniform. In the end, the people get the shaft, and half the country seems content with bitching and moaning while the other team is in control, while apologizing for their's when its in control. Rinse and repeat.

Do Americans really want change? If so, do they not understand what changes they need? Or are they just a bunch of people trying to find the perfect used car from the same two dealerships that keep selling them lemons?

No Americans don't want change. Sorry to break it too you. Change would involve a break from old traditional and conservative ideals that many Americans hold like a security blanket. Americans sadly want feel good moments and the perception of safety even though nothing has changed.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
349
126
Originally posted by: Sawyer
LOL don't kid yourself, they are all the same crooked, self-serving bastards regardless of the letter by their name.

No, they're not, but you have plenty of air to heat and say otherwise. Some are, some aren't.
 

SAWYER

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
16,745
42
91
Of course not all are crooked, but don't try to act like one group overall is better. Both parties are packed to them rim with lying, pandering douches. You will not make it to be that big without pandering and selling out some of your values
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
349
126
Originally posted by: Sawyer
Of course not all are crooked, but don't try to act like one group overall is better. Both parties are packed to them rim with lying, pandering douches. You will not make it to be that big without pandering and selling out some of your values

There are compromises at times, but that's a far cry from 'selling out your values'.

Can you name 3 examples of doing so for: Pete Stark, Bernie Saunders, Henry Waxman, Barbara Lee?

The list could go on, but there are plenty of such examples - and a lot of frustrated politicians who don't like the way they have to raise so many funds to get elected.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
173
106
Originally posted by: Vic
I don't like political parties in general, and would not be against the federal adoption of a nonpartisan system like Nebraska's state legislature.

I've never heard of this. Can you elaborate for us?

TIA

Fern