particle beam

[hardwareuser]

I don't get how they plan to make a so-called "particle beam weapon". Wouldn't the air molecules severely limit the range?

 

[Gibsons]

Yes, it would probably require some trickery to get it to work in the atmosphere. Most plans for something like this propose basing the weapon in space. Neither seem likely to be made anytime soon though.

http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/airc...les/aureview/1984/jul-aug/roberds.html

 

[hardwareuser]

I read this exact article, and that's why I thought it's such BS. Even in space, I don't see the point of making such a weapon. I can't see how it's better than a regular gun.

 

[phaxmohdem]

Originally posted by: hardwareuser
I read this exact article, and that's why I thought it's such BS. Even in space, I don't see the point of making such a weapon. I can't see how it's better than a regular gun.

hehe You just made me remember that classic scene from Indiana Jones where this badass dude with a sword is making a fuss, and Indy just pulls out his revolver and its all over.

 

[dkozloski]

A good friend of mine was a U.S. Army Ranger and at one of his duty stations. Ft. Campbell, Kentucky, he guarded a site that he described as the place where lightning comes out of the ground. Rumors were that it was a prototype particle beam weapon. The Navy has also experimented with this type of device and found that one discharge only went a few feet but successive blasts went further and further as a path was made through the atmosphere. Another engineer friend of mine saw a strange armored tracked vehicle at Aberdeen proving grounds in Maryland. When he asked what it was he was told it was "The Death Ray". Stuff like this has been under developement for years but of course the results are classified.

 

[JJ650]

I wonder if incoporating a laser and a particle weapon into one would make the particle weapon more effective for range. A powerful enough laser would heat the surrounding atmosphere, thus causing the air around it to expand (much like lightning does) and "thinning" out the air along the lasers path. An extreme fraction of time later, the particle based weapon would fire along this seemingly void gap in the atmosphere reducing the interference you would normally get.
I could be totally off on this. I don't think that lasers operate in a manner such as they superheat the atmosphere along the entire length of its range.
Just interesting to think about.

 

[eLiu]

Originally posted by: hardwareuser
I don't get how they plan to make a so-called "particle beam weapon". Wouldn't the air molecules severely limit the range?

could you preheat the air enough (with a laser maybe??) to improve range? like maybe have the particle beam 'piggyback' on the laser's path

 

[phaxmohdem]

I'd think that with a laser powerful enough to cut the path needed for the particle weapon, there'd be nothing left of the target by the time the particle portion joined the party.

 

[IEC]

Originally posted by: JJ650
I wonder if incoporating a laser and a particle weapon into one would make the particle weapon more effective for range. A powerful enough laser would heat the surrounding atmosphere, thus causing the air around it to expand (much like lightning does) and "thinning" out the air along the lasers path. An extreme fraction of time later, the particle based weapon would fire along this seemingly void gap in the atmosphere reducing the interference you would normally get.
I could be totally off on this. I don't think that lasers operate in a manner such as they superheat the atmosphere along the entire length of its range.
Just interesting to think about.

Genius! That actually seems to make a lot of sense theoretically, but one can only guess at the practicality of such a weapon.

 

[Velk]

Originally posted by: JJ650
I wonder if incoporating a laser and a particle weapon into one would make the particle weapon more effective for range. A powerful enough laser would heat the surrounding atmosphere, thus causing the air around it to expand (much like lightning does) and "thinning" out the air along the lasers path. An extreme fraction of time later, the particle based weapon would fire along this seemingly void gap in the atmosphere reducing the interference you would normally get.

If I remember correctly, this was somewhat of a plot point in 'A Dark and Hungry God Arises' by Stephen Donaldson.

 

[Wahsapa]

what if you shoot a bullet AND THEN the particle beam

 

[dkozloski]

The trajectories don't match.

 

[Jeff7]

Originally posted by: hardwareuser
I read this exact article, and that's why I thought it's such BS. Even in space, I don't see the point of making such a weapon. I can't see how it's better than a regular gun.

Along those lines, yeah, we already have a particle beam weapon - it's called an automatic rifle.
Accelerating particles enough so that they can 1) penetrate the atmosphere with enough force to reach and damage a target, and 2) travel virtually unimpeded by Earth's gravity, would take a huge amount of energy. Plus, a lot of energy would be lost by atmospheric travel anyway. Pure energy weapons seem more feasible. No sense imparting energy into matter to make it move, when energy already has the capability of travelling through air without significant difficulty.

 

[hardwareuser]

Originally posted by: Jeff7

Originally posted by: hardwareuser
I read this exact article, and that's why I thought it's such BS. Even in space, I don't see the point of making such a weapon. I can't see how it's better than a regular gun.

Along those lines, yeah, we already have a particle beam weapon - it's called an automatic rifle.
Accelerating particles enough so that they can 1) penetrate the atmosphere with enough force to reach and damage a target, and 2) travel virtually unimpeded by Earth's gravity, would take a huge amount of energy. Plus, a lot of energy would be lost by atmospheric travel anyway. Pure energy weapons seem more feasible. No sense imparting energy into matter to make it move, when energy already has the capability of travelling through air without significant difficulty.

I agree about the energy weapons. But even lasers are pretty impractical at the moment. The efficiency of the current solid-state lasers is like <10%? That's pretty crappy. That guy in the article makes it sound like particle accelerators are a toy or something.

 

[Lazien]

I bet if You "painted" the target with highly charged positive ions first You could "release" a particle beam weapon on the target and the attraction would help pull it through the atmosphere

Another application would be to use highly magnetic particles in the accelerator and let their natural attraction hold the beam together until it hits the target. I would think that as long as vanderwall's forces can keep the particles from forming into a solid mass in the accelerator and after it's released that would make a perty good weapon too.

This is all fairly acedemic since I would think if You just discharged the electricity/energy needed to produce any of these effects at the target it would perty much be destroyed anyway so what's the point of particle beam weapons?

Wait....I got it......You could make a weapon who's gunpowder was mini neuclear explosions and instead of stoppering the barrel with a bullet just direct the resulting detonation at Your target annihilating it with the resultant accelerated neuclear particles.

Just some thoughts

 

[Matthias99]

Originally posted by: Velk

Originally posted by: JJ650
I wonder if incoporating a laser and a particle weapon into one would make the particle weapon more effective for range. A powerful enough laser would heat the surrounding atmosphere, thus causing the air around it to expand (much like lightning does) and "thinning" out the air along the lasers path. An extreme fraction of time later, the particle based weapon would fire along this seemingly void gap in the atmosphere reducing the interference you would normally get.

If I remember correctly, this was somewhat of a plot point in 'A Dark and Hungry God Arises' by Stephen Donaldson.

In less sci-fi news, I've read about combo laser-arc welders that work similarly to this. Rather than using a high-power laser to do welding (which is very expensive), they used a (relatively) low-power laser to ionize a path through the air, coaxially with an arc welder. The discharge from the arc welder tends to stick to the ionized path of the laser, making it almost as accurate as a true laser welder at a fraction of the price.

here's the sort of thing I'm talking about
another
some more detail

Several sci-fi settings have used similar setups for energy weapons (sometimes referred to as an 'electrolaser'). Star Trek's ubiquitous "Phaser" is also a supposed to be a combination particle beam/laser weapon.

 

[SCVA60]

What about the power needs. They would be massive.

 

[hobbkins]

You could use a capacitor to store energy over time and then release it all at once. I'm assuming a nuclear reactor would be used to generate enough power.

 

[JJ650]

Just a thought, but isn't an electron beam welder a small version of a particle weapon??? I know they use them to weld titanium members together on aircraft and other vehicles where a continuous weld is needed throughout the surfaces to be joined and not just on the seams as with conventional steel welding techniques. Just up that too full size.

 

[Matthias99]

Originally posted by: JJ650
Just a thought, but isn't an electron beam welder a small version of a particle weapon??? I know they use them to weld titanium members together on aircraft and other vehicles where a continuous weld is needed throughout the surfaces to be joined and not just on the seams as with conventional steel welding techniques. Just up that too full size.

Essentially, yes. However, electron beams are difficult to aim at any significant range; the beam is attracted to any electrical ground (including the, uh, ground). See my last post for a technique that is used to reduce this effect and increase accuracy of such welders.

AFAIK, nobody's tried to scale this up for military applications, but as a short-ranged high-power weapon it would probably be feasable. Assuming you could solve the power issues.