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Participatory tax system

KeithTalent

Elite Member | Administrator | No Lifer
Administrator
I was having a discussion with some co-workers/friends over lunch and the subject of taxes came up (we're accountants, so yeah). Anyway, a bunch of us started talking about a participatory tax system and the potential pros and cons of such a system.

So the general idea is this:

1. Taxes are still calculated based upon the criteria used today

2. At the end of each year your total tax paid (not just the owed amount remaining, but paid and owed together) for the year would be calculated and a gross amount shown, same as it is now.

3. Whatever your total tax figure, let's use $10,000 for example, would then be split.

4. 50% ($5,000) goes to the government for them to do what they wish (like they do with the full 100% now)

5. 50% would be segregated for you, the payee, to allocate out to whatever areas you think it would be best spent. So for example, you could put 10% in education, 15% in the environment, 25% on defense, etc. There would be a separate form and instruction booklet outlining all of the possible areas it could be placed, so you couldn't just put it in a random box and say "teh faster internetz!1!!111!". You could also leave some or all of your portion to the government's discretion.

There would obviously be a lot of issues around accountability and auditing, plus the potential for programs to be underfunded if people did not allocate enough to certain areas, but at the same time, maybe it would force the government to be a little more responsible with the money they have.

Would you, as a taxpayer, like a system such as this? Or do you think the government should be the ones in charge of the entire amount? Maybe a third party should manage some of it?

Please feel free to comment, suggest improvements, or deride anything I posted here. We did have a couple of drinks at lunch, so I could be missing something very important here. 😀

Cheers,
KT
 
aHA!

We're both accountants, hence why we like ties. It all makes sense now.

I will read the rest of your post later 😉
 
Originally posted by: Ns1
aHA!

We're both accountants, hence why we like ties. It all makes sense now.

I will read the rest of your post later 😉

Bah, I've been outed! 😱

KT
 
Originally posted by: Nitemare
How about no income tax and raise sales taxes?
You favor near 30% tax for the poor, near 0% tax for the rich, elimination of the double-check system we currently have so that there is a new massive underground illegal trade of goods/services, double taxation of all the money you have saved so far (ie your savings accounts and home equity that you already have been taxed on would be taxed again when you spend it)?

Bah to that stupid idea.

Plus, with the typical "fixes" such as giving money to the poor, you have to calculate your income anyways and still have the IRS and the complicated tax forms.
 
Originally posted by: dullard
Originally posted by: Nitemare
How about no income tax and raise sales taxes?
You favor near 30% tax for the poor, near 0% tax for the rich, and double taxation of all the money you have saved so far (ie your savings accounts and home equity that you already have been taxed on would be taxed again when you spend it)?

Bah to that stupid idea.

Plus, with the typical "fixes" such as giving money to the poor, you have to calculate your income anyways and still have the IRS and the complicated tax forms.

More like 15% sales tax as well as having a luxury tax on certain items(just get rid of retarded government overspending). You can make an omelet without breaking a few eggs.

Yes, but the IRS would be reduced by like 90-95% manpower as well as all the hidden loopholes that the rich use.

FYI rich people don't pay taxes anyways, a good CPA would get them out of most all financial obligations.
 
Originally posted by: Nitemare
How about no income tax and raise sales taxes?

I like this, just to hugely reduce the overhead of the IRS, but I'm not sure it would pan out in terms of heavy earners pulling their fair share. What would the sales tax need to be to offset the current taxes on things like interest earnings from people who have millions 'banked'?

A standard sales tax would ease the burden significantly on those who spend a smaller % of their income on goods.

As to the OP, I see where you're headed with this, but I don't think it'd ever pan out. People, as a rule, are morons. It's hard enough to get them to get out and vote once every four years; I'm not sure I want government spending in their hands.
 
Originally posted by: Nitemare
Originally posted by: dullard
Originally posted by: Nitemare
How about no income tax and raise sales taxes?
You favor near 30% tax for the poor, near 0% tax for the rich, and double taxation of all the money you have saved so far (ie your savings accounts and home equity that you already have been taxed on would be taxed again when you spend it)?

Bah to that stupid idea.

Plus, with the typical "fixes" such as giving money to the poor, you have to calculate your income anyways and still have the IRS and the complicated tax forms.

More like 15% sales tax as well as having a luxury tax on certain items(just get rid of retarded government overspending). You can make an omelet without breaking a few eggs.

Yes, but the IRS would be reduced by like 90-95% manpower as well as all the hidden loopholes that the rich use.

FYI rich people don't pay taxes anyways, a good CPA would get them out of most all financial obligations.

Wouldn't matter to me, but hurts the poor the most, so it would never fly.
 
Originally posted by: Nitemare
Originally posted by: dullard
Originally posted by: Nitemare
How about no income tax and raise sales taxes?
You favor near 30% tax for the poor, near 0% tax for the rich, and double taxation of all the money you have saved so far (ie your savings accounts and home equity that you already have been taxed on would be taxed again when you spend it)?

Bah to that stupid idea.

Plus, with the typical "fixes" such as giving money to the poor, you have to calculate your income anyways and still have the IRS and the complicated tax forms.

More like 15% sales tax as well as having a luxury tax on certain items(just get rid of retarded government overspending). You can make an omelet without breaking a few eggs.

.

ive tried that, they just dont fry up as well.
 
Originally posted by: hanoverphist
Originally posted by: Nitemare
Originally posted by: dullard
Originally posted by: Nitemare
How about no income tax and raise sales taxes?
You favor near 30% tax for the poor, near 0% tax for the rich, and double taxation of all the money you have saved so far (ie your savings accounts and home equity that you already have been taxed on would be taxed again when you spend it)?

Bah to that stupid idea.

Plus, with the typical "fixes" such as giving money to the poor, you have to calculate your income anyways and still have the IRS and the complicated tax forms.

More like 15% sales tax as well as having a luxury tax on certain items(just get rid of retarded government overspending). You can make an omelet without breaking a few eggs.

.

ive tried that, they just dont fry up as well.

more calcium though and better for you
 
The best system would be an idiot tax. Just open up a bunch of federally operated casinos and fund government that way. 😀
 
Originally posted by: Nitemare
More like 15% sales tax as well as having a luxury tax on certain items(just get rid of retarded government overspending). You can make an omelet without breaking a few eggs.

Yes, but the IRS would be reduced by like 90-95% manpower as well as all the hidden loopholes that the rich use.

FYI rich people don't pay taxes anyways, a good CPA would get them out of most all financial obligations.
All wrong. It'll be far higher than 15%. The 15% number includes assumptions that government spending is slashed to levels that we'll never see. Lets try some numbers. The personal spending (non-goverment) for 2008 will be roughly $10 trillion. The US government spending for 2008 will be roughly $3 trillion. What percent of $10 trillion is needed to get $3 trillion? It isn't 15%. Let me give you a hint. Try 30%. And that assumes no exemptions on any purchases (all items are taxed, and nothing is given to the poor). If you start helping the poor or excluding items, that 30% number gets much bigger. Heck, if you consider the rich will just spend their money out of the US, that number soars (plus our economy would crash).

The IRS will still be there if you include exemptions for the poor (you have to see who is poor, of course). The rich have the AMT.

You have just a pipe dream with massaged numbers to make a good case. It just will not work as it is. Think of people with a home. Suddenly there is a 30% sales tax to sell the home. Guess what, your home value plummetted since now people aren't going to be able to afford your home. Americans lose trillions that way. Or, make an exception for homes - but that comes with a massive increase in the necessary tax rate. Rinse and repeat with many other major items and you'll see that 15% number skyrockets.
 
I am in favor of the Libertarian Party's idea to replace welfare with a tax CREDIT for donations to certain charities. This is similar to your idea in that it allows you to take a portion of the money that you would have paid in taxes and decide how you think it should be used (to a much lesser extent than your idea). I am in favor of replacing as much government responsibility as is feasible with private organizations that must operate efficiently to survive.
 
Absolutely not. The public is far too fickle and easily manipulated. They do not have the civic expertise needed to decide where money is needed. It's bad enough how easily budgets are twisted already.
 
Originally posted by: dullard
Originally posted by: Nitemare
How about no income tax and raise sales taxes?
You favor near 30% tax for the poor, near 0% tax for the rich, elimination of the double-check system we currently have so that there is a new massive underground illegal trade of goods/services, double taxation of all the money you have saved so far (ie your savings accounts and home equity that you already have been taxed on would be taxed again when you spend it)?

Bah to that stupid idea.

Plus, with the typical "fixes" such as giving money to the poor, you have to calculate your income anyways and still have the IRS and the complicated tax forms.

I agree that replacing income tax with a sales tax would unfairly target the poor. Has anyone seen the chart in this article? It seems to indicate that while the average income of the highest fifth of households is 15x that of the lowest fifth, they only have about double the consumption per person.

The way I figure it, a flat sales tax of 15% would mean that 25% of a poor family's income would go to taxes whereas it would only be about 7% of a rich family's. Am I doing the math wrong?
 
I think adding a modicum of involvement in how a person's tax dollars are spent would actually increase involvement and awareness of the entire government system. As it currently stands, people just see dollars going out the door and quite often have no sense of how or where their money is being put to work. If something like this were in place, people may just care a little more which would be better for the country, and the world, at large.

But maybe I'm an idealist.

KT
 
Originally posted by: KeithTalent
I think adding a modicum of involvement in how a person's tax dollars are spent would actually increase involvement and awareness of the entire government system. As it currently stands, people just see dollars going out the door and quite often have no sense of how or where their money is being put to work. If something like this were in place, people may just care a little more which would be better for the country, and the world, at large.

But maybe I'm an idealist.

KT

I'm pretty sure 80% of my income tax is probably wasted on crap i would never agree with
 
Originally posted by: KeithTalent
I think adding a modicum of involvement in how a person's tax dollars are spent would actually increase involvement and awareness of the entire government system. As it currently stands, people just see dollars going out the door and quite often have no sense of how or where their money is being put to work. If something like this were in place, people may just care a little more which would be better for the country, and the world, at large.

But maybe I'm an idealist.

KT

You could probably accomplish the same with a simple website where people enter in their tax information.
 
Originally posted by: Nitemare
Originally posted by: KeithTalent
I think adding a modicum of involvement in how a person's tax dollars are spent would actually increase involvement and awareness of the entire government system. As it currently stands, people just see dollars going out the door and quite often have no sense of how or where their money is being put to work. If something like this were in place, people may just care a little more which would be better for the country, and the world, at large.

But maybe I'm an idealist.

KT

I'm pretty sure 80% of my income tax is probably wasted on crap i would never agree with

Exactly. So something like this would at least allow you to allocate some of your own, hard-earned dollars, to something you actually care about.

KT
 
Originally posted by: torpid
Originally posted by: KeithTalent
I think adding a modicum of involvement in how a person's tax dollars are spent would actually increase involvement and awareness of the entire government system. As it currently stands, people just see dollars going out the door and quite often have no sense of how or where their money is being put to work. If something like this were in place, people may just care a little more which would be better for the country, and the world, at large.

But maybe I'm an idealist.

KT

You could probably accomplish the same with a simple website where people enter in their tax information.

How exactly? Convenience is not the point and does nothing to encourage involvement, participation, in a manner such as described in the OP, would me much more significant.

KT
 
Originally posted by: KeithTalent
Originally posted by: torpid
Originally posted by: KeithTalent
I think adding a modicum of involvement in how a person's tax dollars are spent would actually increase involvement and awareness of the entire government system. As it currently stands, people just see dollars going out the door and quite often have no sense of how or where their money is being put to work. If something like this were in place, people may just care a little more which would be better for the country, and the world, at large.

But maybe I'm an idealist.

KT

You could probably accomplish the same with a simple website where people enter in their tax information.

How exactly? Convenience is not the point and does nothing to encourage involvement, participation, in a manner such as described in the OP, would me much more significant.

KT

But it would be subject to immense corruption in numerous ways. As to a web site, all of the information you described is available in that you can see how much total tax income the government gets and how much is spent on each item. Theoretically, anyway.

Edit: In the US, I believe it's available here ... no idea about the UK, sorry.
 
Originally posted by: torpid
Originally posted by: KeithTalent
Originally posted by: torpid
Originally posted by: KeithTalent
I think adding a modicum of involvement in how a person's tax dollars are spent would actually increase involvement and awareness of the entire government system. As it currently stands, people just see dollars going out the door and quite often have no sense of how or where their money is being put to work. If something like this were in place, people may just care a little more which would be better for the country, and the world, at large.

But maybe I'm an idealist.

KT

You could probably accomplish the same with a simple website where people enter in their tax information.

How exactly? Convenience is not the point and does nothing to encourage involvement, participation, in a manner such as described in the OP, would me much more significant.

KT

But it would be subject to immense corruption in numerous ways. As to a web site, all of the information you described is available in that you can see how much total tax income the government gets and how much is spent on each item. Theoretically, anyway.

Don't get me wrong, I know any system like that described here would require a tonne of work before being ready for implementation, and in fact may never be implementable due to concerns of manipulation, but I think something like this, in theory, could do a lot of good.

KT
 
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