Parental Notification doesn't cut down on abortions.

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: techs

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: techs

Originally posted by: techs

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Tom

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Tom
The reason I oppose these notification laws is that sometime, somewhere, a woman or girl is going to be injured or killed because of the law.

It might be statistically insignificant, but it has consequences.

I am sure some gun law has got somebody killed as well. The same can be said about a drug law.

We shouldnt base a law on some minute possibility in the future, when this law subverts the role of the parent in the family.

It isn't a "minute possibility", it's a certainty, in my opinion.

As far as parental roles, i'm not a fan of government control. That is the issue that always puzzles me, "conservatives" who want the government telling everyone how to live their lives, how to raise their children, etc, etc, etc.

Parents who need the government to make their kids tell them about getting an abortion..have you considered just how f'ed up that is ?

Your response said it might be "statistically insignificant". That in my opinion is "minute".

And why is it "f'd" up requiring a hospital or clinic to notify the "legal" guardian of a "child" before a medical procedure is performed?

You still miss the point.
btw what would you do if your daughter wanted an abortion and the clinic notified you?

I noticed you haven't answered the question Genx87 .
What would you do if your daughter wanted an abortion and the clinic notified you?

Irrelevant to this discussion and nothing but a diversion to turn this personal.

Nope. Its highly relevant. Because you keep whining about your rights over your kids. You chime in every time this topic is brought up.
Lets hear what you would do. Real life and real people. Thats what these laws affect.
What would you do if your daughter wanted an abortion and the clinic notified you?

Case in point

 

[zendari]

Originally posted by: Tom

Originally posted by: zendari
You do, for basically every other medical procedure in the world. But not an abortion thanks to the lobbyists.

Just curious, how big/powerful do you think the government should be, since it isn't big/powerful enough yet ?

It already is plenty big and powerful...adding this small change doesnt change anything.

I'm a legal working adult citizen and I can't even go down to a bar and buy a beer.

 

[techs]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: techs

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: techs

Originally posted by: techs

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Tom

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Tom
The reason I oppose these notification laws is that sometime, somewhere, a woman or girl is going to be injured or killed because of the law.

It might be statistically insignificant, but it has consequences.

I am sure some gun law has got somebody killed as well. The same can be said about a drug law.

We shouldnt base a law on some minute possibility in the future, when this law subverts the role of the parent in the family.

It isn't a "minute possibility", it's a certainty, in my opinion.

As far as parental roles, i'm not a fan of government control. That is the issue that always puzzles me, "conservatives" who want the government telling everyone how to live their lives, how to raise their children, etc, etc, etc.

Parents who need the government to make their kids tell them about getting an abortion..have you considered just how f'ed up that is ?

Your response said it might be "statistically insignificant". That in my opinion is "minute".

And why is it "f'd" up requiring a hospital or clinic to notify the "legal" guardian of a "child" before a medical procedure is performed?

You still miss the point.
btw what would you do if your daughter wanted an abortion and the clinic notified you?

I noticed you haven't answered the question Genx87 .
What would you do if your daughter wanted an abortion and the clinic notified you?

Irrelevant to this discussion and nothing but a diversion to turn this personal.

Nope. Its highly relevant. Because you keep whining about your rights over your kids. You chime in every time this topic is brought up.
Lets hear what you would do. Real life and real people. Thats what these laws affect.
What would you do if your daughter wanted an abortion and the clinic notified you?

Case in point

Yes, case in point.
You are quick to pass judgement but are unwilling to stand by your convictions.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: techs

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: techs

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: techs

Originally posted by: techs

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Tom

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Tom
The reason I oppose these notification laws is that sometime, somewhere, a woman or girl is going to be injured or killed because of the law.

It might be statistically insignificant, but it has consequences.

I am sure some gun law has got somebody killed as well. The same can be said about a drug law.

We shouldnt base a law on some minute possibility in the future, when this law subverts the role of the parent in the family.

It isn't a "minute possibility", it's a certainty, in my opinion.

As far as parental roles, i'm not a fan of government control. That is the issue that always puzzles me, "conservatives" who want the government telling everyone how to live their lives, how to raise their children, etc, etc, etc.

Parents who need the government to make their kids tell them about getting an abortion..have you considered just how f'ed up that is ?

Your response said it might be "statistically insignificant". That in my opinion is "minute".

And why is it "f'd" up requiring a hospital or clinic to notify the "legal" guardian of a "child" before a medical procedure is performed?

You still miss the point.
btw what would you do if your daughter wanted an abortion and the clinic notified you?

I noticed you haven't answered the question Genx87 .
What would you do if your daughter wanted an abortion and the clinic notified you?

Irrelevant to this discussion and nothing but a diversion to turn this personal.

Nope. Its highly relevant. Because you keep whining about your rights over your kids. You chime in every time this topic is brought up.
Lets hear what you would do. Real life and real people. Thats what these laws affect.
What would you do if your daughter wanted an abortion and the clinic notified you?

Case in point

Yes, case in point.
You are quick to pass judgement but are unwilling to stand by your convictions.

Wrong, I am unwilling to let you turn this thread personal.

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

Originally posted by: zendari

Originally posted by: Tom

Originally posted by: zendari
You do, for basically every other medical procedure in the world. But not an abortion thanks to the lobbyists.

Just curious, how big/powerful do you think the government should be, since it isn't big/powerful enough yet ?

It already is plenty big and powerful...adding this small change doesnt change anything.

I'm a legal working adult citizen and I can't even go down to a bar and buy a beer.

and your point is, you can't legally get drunk, so ban abortions. And any change is change no matter how your fuzzy grammar distorts it. Lemme quote ya z-boy

adding this small change doesnt change anything.

So, on this logic, they could make as many small changes to anything, because it wouldn't change anything. Gotcha. :disgust:

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: techs

But some workers and doctors at abortion clinics said that the laws had little connection with the real lives of most teenagers, and that they more often saw parents pressing their daughters to have abortions than trying to stop them.

I bet this part will just drive the Jesus-freaks up the wall. Parents pressuring their children into having 'bortions? OMG! We need a law against that! Now the Christians will try to pass a law to make it illegal for parents to pay for their children's abortions and for parents to advise their children to have abortions.

Maybe what we really need is a law that requires those under 18 to have abortions since, using some of the Jesus-freaks' reasoning, if those under 18 can't make their own life decisions, then (my reasoning) perhaps they shouldn't be allowed to have children at all.

 

[zendari]

Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper

Originally posted by: techs

But some workers and doctors at abortion clinics said that the laws had little connection with the real lives of most teenagers, and that they more often saw parents pressing their daughters to have abortions than trying to stop them.

I bet this part will just drive the Jesus-freaks up the wall. Parents pressuring their children into having 'bortions? OMG! We need a law against that! Now the Christians will try to pass a law to make it illegal for parents to pay for their children's abortions and for parents to advise their children to have abortions.

Maybe what we really need is a law that requires those under 18 to have abortions since, using some of the Jesus-freaks' reasoning, if those under 18 can't make their own life decisions, then (my reasoning) perhaps they shouldn't be allowed to have children at all.

There's nothing wrong with parents pressuring their kids into doing things, as long as the kids are their responsibility.

 

[shadow9d9]

Originally posted by: zendari

Originally posted by: Tom

Originally posted by: zendari
You do, for basically every other medical procedure in the world. But not an abortion thanks to the lobbyists.

Just curious, how big/powerful do you think the government should be, since it isn't big/powerful enough yet ?

It already is plenty big and powerful...adding this small change doesnt change anything.

I'm a legal working adult citizen and I can't even go down to a bar and buy a beer.

When you hit 21 you will be able to buy a beer : P).

 

[shadow9d9]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: techs

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: techs

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: techs

Originally posted by: techs

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Tom

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Tom
The reason I oppose these notification laws is that sometime, somewhere, a woman or girl is going to be injured or killed because of the law.

It might be statistically insignificant, but it has consequences.

I am sure some gun law has got somebody killed as well. The same can be said about a drug law.

We shouldnt base a law on some minute possibility in the future, when this law subverts the role of the parent in the family.

It isn't a "minute possibility", it's a certainty, in my opinion.

As far as parental roles, i'm not a fan of government control. That is the issue that always puzzles me, "conservatives" who want the government telling everyone how to live their lives, how to raise their children, etc, etc, etc.

Parents who need the government to make their kids tell them about getting an abortion..have you considered just how f'ed up that is ?

Your response said it might be "statistically insignificant". That in my opinion is "minute".

And why is it "f'd" up requiring a hospital or clinic to notify the "legal" guardian of a "child" before a medical procedure is performed?

You still miss the point.
btw what would you do if your daughter wanted an abortion and the clinic notified you?

I noticed you haven't answered the question Genx87 .
What would you do if your daughter wanted an abortion and the clinic notified you?

Irrelevant to this discussion and nothing but a diversion to turn this personal.

Nope. Its highly relevant. Because you keep whining about your rights over your kids. You chime in every time this topic is brought up.
Lets hear what you would do. Real life and real people. Thats what these laws affect.
What would you do if your daughter wanted an abortion and the clinic notified you?

Case in point

Yes, case in point.
You are quick to pass judgement but are unwilling to stand by your convictions.

Wrong, I am unwilling to let you turn this thread personal.

You are unwilling to put things into perspective.. you have all of these opinions but you don't want to actually get involved in the situations... Therefore, you disconnect yourself from reality.

 

[techs]

I just had an interesting thought.
Should it also be mandatory that doctors inform parents their kid is pregnant so the parent can force them to have an abortion?

 

[zendari]

Originally posted by: shadow9d9

Originally posted by: zendari

Originally posted by: Tom

Originally posted by: zendari
You do, for basically every other medical procedure in the world. But not an abortion thanks to the lobbyists.

Just curious, how big/powerful do you think the government should be, since it isn't big/powerful enough yet ?

It already is plenty big and powerful...adding this small change doesnt change anything.

I'm a legal working adult citizen and I can't even go down to a bar and buy a beer.

When you hit 21 you will be able to buy a beer : P).

And when a girl hits 18 she can have an abortion without parental notification.

 

[zendari]

Originally posted by: techs
I just had an interesting thought.
Should it also be mandatory that doctors inform parents their kid is pregnant so the parent can force them to have an abortion?

They can't force her to do anything. They can, and perhaps should, allow her to face the consequences of her actions.

 

[techs]

Originally posted by: zendari

Originally posted by: techs
I just had an interesting thought.
Should it also be mandatory that doctors inform parents their kid is pregnant so the parent can force them to have an abortion?

They can't force her to do anything. They can, and perhaps should, allow her to face the consequences of her actions.

If parental consent laws are in effect then a parent can stop a child from having an abortion. Wouldn't the reverse be true? A parent can then force their child to have an abortion?
Would you support this?

 

[zendari]

Originally posted by: techs

Originally posted by: zendari

Originally posted by: techs
I just had an interesting thought.
Should it also be mandatory that doctors inform parents their kid is pregnant so the parent can force them to have an abortion?

They can't force her to do anything. They can, and perhaps should, allow her to face the consequences of her actions.

If parental consent laws are in effect then a parent can stop a child from having an abortion. Wouldn't the reverse be true? A parent can then force their child to have an abortion?
Would you support this?

The same set of laws and the logic that follows apply to many other situations. A parent can forbid a child from getting a tattoo, but they can hardly force a kid to get one.

Why does this set of thinking work so well for everything else, but not the abortion industry?

 

[3chordcharlie]

Originally posted by: zendari

Originally posted by: Tom

Originally posted by: zendari
You do, for basically every other medical procedure in the world. But not an abortion thanks to the lobbyists.

Just curious, how big/powerful do you think the government should be, since it isn't big/powerful enough yet ?

It already is plenty big and powerful...adding this small change doesnt change anything.

I'm a legal working adult citizen and I can't even go down to a bar and buy a beer.

Has it occured to you that this is silly?

What possible legitimate reason is there that you cannot buy a beer?

I mean I understand having an age limit for alcohol, and since it has to be some arbitrary number, I understand making it high enough to minimize access to alcohol in high school, but 21 is a stupid age to choose.

 

[zendari]

Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie

Originally posted by: zendari

It already is plenty big and powerful...adding this small change doesnt change anything.

I'm a legal working adult citizen and I can't even go down to a bar and buy a beer.

Has it occured to you that this is silly?

What possible legitimate reason is there that you cannot buy a beer?

I mean I understand having an age limit for alcohol, and since it has to be some arbitrary number, I understand making it high enough to minimize access to alcohol in high school, but 21 is a stupid age to choose.

Surely then, we should minimize high schoolers' access to dangerous elective medical procedures.

 

[Fern]

Originally posted by: Tom
The reason I oppose these notification laws is that sometime, somewhere, a woman or girl is going to be injured or killed because of the law.

It might be statistically insignificant, but it has consequences.

How about they avoid getting injured or killed because of notification?

Who is going to pay for the abortion of, say, a 15yr old girl if not her parents? If your parents are going to pay, well notification is irrelevent isn't it? Perhaps if parents are notified they will take care in ensuring that the daughter gets good medical care in the performance of the proceedure.

I'm just raising the idea that, as a parent myself, I'd like notification -even some level of control here - because I'm legally & finacially reasonable for this person (my daughter).

It seems there are posts in this thread mentioning "goverment control", this has very little if anything to do with "gov control". Its abot parental involvement. As a parent this is a person I not only love very much, but am (again) legally & finacialy responsible for. I beleive I have a right to "help" in the decision process, even if only choosing which doctor performs this proceedure.

I've had too many friends die in unexpected ways from "minor" medical proceedures. God forbid I have to hear about a proceedure gone bad and my child is dead.

Fern

 

[Todd33]

Originally posted by: zendari
Surely then, we should minimize high schoolers' access to dangerous elective medical procedures.

And submit them to safe coat hangers? I love your right wing scare pamphlet language "dangerous elective medical procedures". I guess taking my wisdom teeth out was a "dangerous elective medical" procedure and I was 15!! Someday when you move out of your parents house/church and become an adult you might remove yourself from the fringe that you were brainwashed to and see the world through practical eyes.

 

[3chordcharlie]

Originally posted by: zendari

Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie

Originally posted by: zendari

It already is plenty big and powerful...adding this small change doesnt change anything.

I'm a legal working adult citizen and I can't even go down to a bar and buy a beer.

Has it occured to you that this is silly?

What possible legitimate reason is there that you cannot buy a beer?

I mean I understand having an age limit for alcohol, and since it has to be some arbitrary number, I understand making it high enough to minimize access to alcohol in high school, but 21 is a stupid age to choose.

Surely then, we should minimize high schoolers' access to dangerous elective medical procedures.

Actually the justification for '18/19' is more circuitous than that: alcohol is more harmful to people who are still growing, and if high school seniors can get booze legally, then high school freshman can get it much more easily; it's not that 17-18 year olds drinking is so bad, it's making it easier for 13-14 year olds. Las I checked, you can't get your ofage friend to pick you up a sixpack of abortions when she goes in to get her own; the issues are therefore not similar.

 

[zendari]

Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie

Originally posted by: zendari

Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie
Has it occured to you that this is silly?

What possible legitimate reason is there that you cannot buy a beer?

I mean I understand having an age limit for alcohol, and since it has to be some arbitrary number, I understand making it high enough to minimize access to alcohol in high school, but 21 is a stupid age to choose.

Surely then, we should minimize high schoolers' access to dangerous elective medical procedures.

Actually the justification for '18/19' is more circuitous than that: alcohol is more harmful to people who are still growing, and if high school seniors can get booze legally, then high school freshman can get it much more easily; it's not that 17-18 year olds drinking is so bad, it's making it easier for 13-14 year olds. Las I checked, you can't get your ofage friend to pick you up a sixpack of abortions when she goes in to get her own; the issues are therefore not similar.

And you consider this circular chain of coincidences reason enough to restrict the rights of individual adults? I guess you aren't the libertarian I thought you were.

Out of curiousity, why can't a 16 year old get a tattoo without parental involvement? You can't get a sixpack of tattoos.

 

[3chordcharlie]

Originally posted by: zendari
And you consider this circular chain of coincidences reason enough to restrict the rights of individual adults? I guess you aren't the libertarian I thought you were.

Out of curiousity, why can't a 16 year old get a tattoo without parental involvement? You can't get a sixpack of tattoos.

Actually no, I don't particularly.

But your use of the word 'adult' is pretty telling - when do you become an adult?

AFAIC there is no reason a 16 yo should not be allowed to get a tattoo; health standards at tattoo parlours are well-defined, and unless there's some lack of enforcement I don't see the potential for harm other than the usual buyer's remorse.

 

[Tom]

Originally posted by: Fern

Originally posted by: Tom
The reason I oppose these notification laws is that sometime, somewhere, a woman or girl is going to be injured or killed because of the law.

It might be statistically insignificant, but it has consequences.

How about they avoid getting injured or killed because of notification?

Who is going to pay for the abortion of, say, a 15yr old girl if not her parents? If your parents are going to pay, well notification is irrelevent isn't it? Perhaps if parents are notified they will take care in ensuring that the daughter gets good medical care in the performance of the proceedure.

I'm just raising the idea that, as a parent myself, I'd like notification -even some level of control here - because I'm legally & finacially reasonable for this person (my daughter).

It seems there are posts in this thread mentioning "goverment control", this has very little if anything to do with "gov control". Its abot parental involvement. As a parent this is a person I not only love very much, but am (again) legally & finacialy responsible for. I beleive I have a right to "help" in the decision process, even if only choosing which doctor performs this proceedure.

I've had too many friends die in unexpected ways from "minor" medical proceedures. God forbid I have to hear about a proceedure gone bad and my child is dead.

Fern

What are you talking about ? You don't think laws are enforced by the government ?

This entire issue is all about government control. There are plenty of other ways for parents to know what their kids are doing, without expecting the government to do it for them.

If you are a parent, i hope you aren't waiting for someone else, or the government, to raise them for you.

 

[Tom]

Originally posted by: zendari

Originally posted by: Tom

Originally posted by: zendari
You do, for basically every other medical procedure in the world. But not an abortion thanks to the lobbyists.

Just curious, how big/powerful do you think the government should be, since it isn't big/powerful enough yet ?

It already is plenty big and powerful...adding this small change doesnt change anything.

I'm a legal working adult citizen and I can't even go down to a bar and buy a beer.

How do you think it got so big ? Because millions of people all have their own little thing that they think wouldn't make it that much bigger, or that much more of a limit on people's rights.

As far as you're buying a beer, what you say doesn't make sense. Either the bar is closed, or you aren't as much of an adult as you think you are, at least in the collective judgement of the citizens of the society you are a part of.

 

[LumbergTech]

Originally posted by: Tom

Originally posted by: zendari

Originally posted by: Tom

Originally posted by: zendari
You do, for basically every other medical procedure in the world. But not an abortion thanks to the lobbyists.

Just curious, how big/powerful do you think the government should be, since it isn't big/powerful enough yet ?

It already is plenty big and powerful...adding this small change doesnt change anything.

I'm a legal working adult citizen and I can't even go down to a bar and buy a beer.

How do you think it got so big ? Because millions of people all have their own little thing that they think wouldn't make it that much bigger, or that much more of a limit on people's rights.

As far as you're buying a beer, what you say doesn't make sense. Either the bar is closed, or you aren't as much of an adult as you think you are, at least in the collective judgement of the citizens of the society you are a part of.

i can appreciate the reasons for drinking laws, but i also think that their effects are perfectly reflected in the attitude of this individual, he is overly concerned with his ability to purchase intoxicants, its the culture..people make alcohol into this plateau of the good life..i think its a sickness of society..im not against drinking but it shouldnt be put on the pedestal that it is

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Genx87

If you dont see the damage in having a govt entity interfere with a family decision you are beyond hope.

But you are for the Government being behind closed bedroom doors.