SamurAchzar
Platinum Member
- Feb 15, 2006
- 2,422
- 3
- 76
Right after you return Northern Cyprus to its rightful owners.
Military invasion, you say. Hundreds of thousands displaced citizens, you say. Hm.
Right after you return Northern Cyprus to its rightful owners.
Military invasion, you say. Hundreds of thousands displaced citizens, you say. Hm.
Now the Palestinians can work together to form a government to represent them, or different militias such as Hamas vs Fatah are going to fight each other to see who will be top-dog. If the Palestinians can show that they can live peacefully among themselves (and Israel) and form a legitimate government, then the Palestinians have proven themselves that there is a functional state of Palestine. It doesn't matter what the other countries say, because a legitimate state with functional government that represent its own people comes from within.
xj0hnx
Diamond Member
- Dec 18, 2007
- 9,262
- 3
- 76
I didn't know we killed that many civilians on purpose, rather than react to a combat situation - almost 100% created by their own people - and unfortunately kill civilians in the process.
Can you link to us where we intentionally targeted Iraqi civilians just to kill them? And, in the rare cases you may link to, where our soldiers weren't prosecuted and we didn't make restitution?
With as many as you're claiming we killed, you should be able to provide a "Macro" number of links.....
Thanks!
Chuck
SamurAchzar
Platinum Member
- Feb 15, 2006
- 2,422
- 3
- 76
What land and independence are you babbling about? They never had independence, they never had a country and the land was never "theirs". Meanwhile, the Turks occupy Northern Cyprus while killing Kurds indiscriminately, just a century after the Armenian holocaust, and the world turns a blind eye. At least you got the boot from Europe, it means not everyone is stupid.
MovingTarget said:
The Muslim hatred towards the Jews has nothing to do with education or money. The more educated the terrorists are, the more destructive they become (e.g. 9/11). The Palestinians enjoyed record growth in the years before they started the 2nd Intifada, and yet chosen the path of violence.
Unfortunately you come in with your imperialistic approach and say that if you just give them more money they'll turn to be you. Well, guess what, education and utilities are nowhere on their national agenda. Having the land of Israel to themselves, and sustaining a proper Muslim theocracy Hamas-style are. Their priorities and objectives are different than yours.
The Palestinians want their honor - which Israel deprived of the Arabs in each and every war - and their life without infidels (then they will turn to kill and oppress each other but it doesn't matter right now).
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SamurAchzar
Platinum Member
- Feb 15, 2006
- 2,422
- 3
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The vast majority of those fatalities were incurred by other Iraqis and insurgents. This is how it works in the libtard world, when one Muslim kills another, you go blame the supposed Christian-White overlord for not keeping his subordinates under check. It's extremely sad and will never lead to Muslims taking care of themselves.
I know, I just find it hilarious the mind of folks like that. It's nuts to think people actually think like that (to actually think that to post that not tongue in cheek, but, for real), but Millions do.
It's one of the only reasons I was - and still am - in favor of the Afghanistan and Iraq wars. My chief b1tches are that we didn't force enough change on the populations, and, F'd up so bad militarily and socially in Afghanistan.
Having real societal changes in the way their top down leadership thinks, including their religous leadership, is maybe the only thing that is going to get these countries to be still not where they were 700 years ago in another 200.
It's really sad, at multiple levels.....
Chuck
It's one of the only reasons I was - and still am - in favor of the Afghanistan and Iraq wars. My chief b1tches are that we didn't force enough change on the populations, and, F'd up so bad militarily and socially in Afghanistan.
Having real societal changes in the way their top down leadership thinks, including their religous leadership, is maybe the only thing that is going to get these countries to be still not where they were 700 years ago in another 200.
It's really sad, at multiple levels.....
Chuck
SamurAchzar
Platinum Member
- Feb 15, 2006
- 2,422
- 3
- 76
There's no changing for them. The more force you apply, the more force will go back at you. Try to convert them and you'll get more 9/11's. Leave them unchecked and you'll wake up in 30 years with Europe being 30% Muslim and half the planet under the control of Muhammad's minions.
To really control them, you need to be mercilessly brutal, like Saddam was. The direction we should take is reversed, we should seek to help and support such dictators because they are the only efficient counterforce against Islam, which ultimately breeds Taliban style theocracies.
We need more puppet dictators and less talks about democracy. It doesn't work in that part of the world, not anymore than a bacon breakfast does.
Basically what should have been done in Afghanistan is to pick the most corrupt, vicious and vile bastard out of the lot, bribe him with equipment and weapons and let him go on a killing spree among Taliban, what US could never do due to press and public concerns. This, my friend, is how things work in the Muslim world. This is the only tried and tested method of removing Muslim extremists and providing stability and modest prosperity to the population. It worked miracles in Iraq, Syria, Egypt, and Libya and Iran's Shah.
Setting up a democracy is no more than a starting shot in a race for tyranny, to see who can grab power in the shortest time. Democracy is incompatible with Islam.
To really control them, you need to be mercilessly brutal, like Saddam was. The direction we should take is reversed, we should seek to help and support such dictators because they are the only efficient counterforce against Islam, which ultimately breeds Taliban style theocracies.
We need more puppet dictators and less talks about democracy. It doesn't work in that part of the world, not anymore than a bacon breakfast does.
Basically what should have been done in Afghanistan is to pick the most corrupt, vicious and vile bastard out of the lot, bribe him with equipment and weapons and let him go on a killing spree among Taliban, what US could never do due to press and public concerns. This, my friend, is how things work in the Muslim world. This is the only tried and tested method of removing Muslim extremists and providing stability and modest prosperity to the population. It worked miracles in Iraq, Syria, Egypt, and Libya and Iran's Shah.
Setting up a democracy is no more than a starting shot in a race for tyranny, to see who can grab power in the shortest time. Democracy is incompatible with Islam.
I know, but something has to be done. This isn't pre-global trade (and hence global transportation) pre-nuke/chem/bio weapons Earth. Having complete and total fanatics brainwashing tens of Millions just isn't a long term sustainable reality.
I'm not pushing for conversion, or hard force to convert, etc.
Simply use carrots in the form of positive reinforcement (including bribes where needed), backed up with the stick (which means one needs to be an occupying power) if those in power will not cooperate.
The change in these places shouldn't - and never would - happen overnight, however, it would at least happen...and likely in somewhat of a direction we'd like it to go. It's going to take 50-80 years of effort for Iraq to start turning out well for the Western world, and that's only if for those 50-80 years, the equity can be put into it and the bad f'rs can be kept from influencing a significant enough portion of that population to F it up.
Doing nothing isn't an option, and sanctioning someone brutal to 'keep them in check' neither is what America is (or at least, is supposed to be) about, nor would it stand a good chance of making sure we're not targeted again....
Chuck
I'm not pushing for conversion, or hard force to convert, etc.
Simply use carrots in the form of positive reinforcement (including bribes where needed), backed up with the stick (which means one needs to be an occupying power) if those in power will not cooperate.
The change in these places shouldn't - and never would - happen overnight, however, it would at least happen...and likely in somewhat of a direction we'd like it to go. It's going to take 50-80 years of effort for Iraq to start turning out well for the Western world, and that's only if for those 50-80 years, the equity can be put into it and the bad f'rs can be kept from influencing a significant enough portion of that population to F it up.
Doing nothing isn't an option, and sanctioning someone brutal to 'keep them in check' neither is what America is (or at least, is supposed to be) about, nor would it stand a good chance of making sure we're not targeted again....
Chuck
Lemon law
Lifer
- Nov 6, 2005
- 20,984
- 3
- 0
There was nothing fair about what Hitler did to the Jews and sadly nothing fair abourt what Jews in the state of Israel did to Palestinians who owned 60% of the land in the 1948 former British mandate.
But still the greater hope in forming the 1948 State of Israel was that the State of Israel would equally govern its indigenous population of Jews, Arab nations, and Palestinians as the founders of Israel pledged to do.
And here the greater world is some 62 years later and we find all we have done is to exchange a Jewish refugee problem for an even bigger Palestinian refugee problem.
But still in the grand scheme of things we can say the Nation of Israel has earned the right to exist inside of its pre1967 borders, but the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem must be set aside for a Palestinian state inside of which Israel has zero say.
And therefore Israel has been squatting on lands it cannot ever own for 43 years and counting. If Israel is unable to extend the same refugee rights it received in 1948 voluntarily to Palestinians, its far past time for the larger world to slap an economic embargo on Israel until Israel does the right thing. Thereafter its up to the Palestinians to prove they can do a better job than Israel in becoming a productive good neighbor within the mid-east.
Given the previous past record of Israel who has proved they are unable to meet the good mid-east neighbor seal of approval, the Palestinians would have to work very very hard to do worse than Israel has done, 1948 to the present.
But still the greater hope in forming the 1948 State of Israel was that the State of Israel would equally govern its indigenous population of Jews, Arab nations, and Palestinians as the founders of Israel pledged to do.
And here the greater world is some 62 years later and we find all we have done is to exchange a Jewish refugee problem for an even bigger Palestinian refugee problem.
But still in the grand scheme of things we can say the Nation of Israel has earned the right to exist inside of its pre1967 borders, but the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem must be set aside for a Palestinian state inside of which Israel has zero say.
And therefore Israel has been squatting on lands it cannot ever own for 43 years and counting. If Israel is unable to extend the same refugee rights it received in 1948 voluntarily to Palestinians, its far past time for the larger world to slap an economic embargo on Israel until Israel does the right thing. Thereafter its up to the Palestinians to prove they can do a better job than Israel in becoming a productive good neighbor within the mid-east.
Given the previous past record of Israel who has proved they are unable to meet the good mid-east neighbor seal of approval, the Palestinians would have to work very very hard to do worse than Israel has done, 1948 to the present.
SamurAchzar
Platinum Member
- Feb 15, 2006
- 2,422
- 3
- 76
Yes, those evil Jews, how dare they win the war against 5 Arab nations, while the Palestinians run away from their homes and wait until the war is over, so they can go back and slaughter the Jews. How dare they. It was all set up so nicely.
The Israeli founders talked of a Jewish shelter state, they never said anything about becoming a part of the greater Muslim Umma.
Of course it's bigger, the perpetual refugees; longest standing, most heavily supported (financially and politically) refugees of the planet. Never mind the atrocities in Darfur, count on the Palestinians to have 4th generation refugees that live off the developed nations, while waging terror against the Jews.
Israelis rejoice, LL has granted you the "right to exist".
Few threads ago, you were saying an embargo is inevitable. Now you say "it's past time"; interesting. In other words, "if you don't agree to take in millions of Muslims that are 4th generation to emigrants, thus turning your nicely developed country into the 26th Arab country, you will face sanctions".
Yes, I'm sure the Palestinians will give a real fight to Israel in productivity. Their leaders are surely richer than the Israeli leaders and they do have groundbreaking suicide capabilities.
That elusive mid-east neighbor seal of approval - how do you get it? Do you intentionally lose when attacked by your peace loving neighbors (1948, 1956, 1967, 1973, 1982, 1990, 2006)? Do you sit idly while they arm themselves with nukes or sponsor radical Muslim terrorist organizations? Maybe you should oppress free speech? Prey tell how you exactly can you get on favorable terms with the Muslims.
JEDIYoda
Lifer
- Jul 13, 2005
- 33,986
- 3,321
- 126
They made their bed they can lie in it, until they wake up and decide that enough is enough!!
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Lemon law
Lifer
- Nov 6, 2005
- 20,984
- 3
- 0
My only reaction is that Israeli fan clubbers have such a limited view of history, look at the French Aristocracy, they had an almost 1000 year run until one fine day in 1789 when the jig was up. The examples are endless, but the former Apartheid State of South Africa had an over 100 run before the jig was up. The whole problem with the jig being up, is that no one bothers to give much advance warning to the offending idiots that their days in power are rapidly ending.
When and exactly how the Israeli staus quo ends is beyond present prediction, but present Israeli credibility is rapidly unraveling. If Israel voluntarily assists the formation of Palestinian State, its going to be a positive step for Israel and the world. But the present course set by the present Netanyuhu government is clearly unsustainable.
I can waste a million words telling Israeli fan clubbers that present Israeli government policy is unsustainable, but the proof will be in the end results. Meanwhile many surrounding Arabs states are living on borrowed time also, but still change is inevitable.
I am more worried about my own country, namely the USA as it bleeds blood and treasure trying to stop the inevitable changes. And failing miserably at the job at that.
When and exactly how the Israeli staus quo ends is beyond present prediction, but present Israeli credibility is rapidly unraveling. If Israel voluntarily assists the formation of Palestinian State, its going to be a positive step for Israel and the world. But the present course set by the present Netanyuhu government is clearly unsustainable.
I can waste a million words telling Israeli fan clubbers that present Israeli government policy is unsustainable, but the proof will be in the end results. Meanwhile many surrounding Arabs states are living on borrowed time also, but still change is inevitable.
I am more worried about my own country, namely the USA as it bleeds blood and treasure trying to stop the inevitable changes. And failing miserably at the job at that.
Oric
Senior member
- Oct 11, 1999
- 965
- 101
- 106
Yeah just like you, a bigot in a "modern" country ...
What rights did you have to invade a nation a leave the masses to misery, so that you could secure your "oil"
Where Are the weapons of destruction that were supposedly ready to fire by Saddam.
God gave you brains to think, not to create insults at the opposing views
Oric
Senior member
- Oct 11, 1999
- 965
- 101
- 106
If you are so concerned about the validity of my numbers but not the actual loss of life, shame on you
Oric
Senior member
- Oct 11, 1999
- 965
- 101
- 106
What reason did you have to destroy iraq ? Kicking them out of kuwait was more then enough. Your actions to invade and destroy all government and infrastructure caused indescribeable pain in the region. I have been to baghdad many times, not to secure military bases but to civilian parts. Your comments behindscreens thousands of miles away mean nothing for the real life... You may continue talking how "right"you are, you know nothing.
JEDIYoda
Lifer
- Jul 13, 2005
- 33,986
- 3,321
- 126
Spoken like some kid who cannot continue to carry on the discussion in an intelligent manner......gobble gobble....Turkey get it -- hahahaha Gobble Gobble
Nebor
Lifer
- Jun 24, 2003
- 29,582
- 12
- 76
If we dare? The Turkish military is literally the laziest, least professional and most poorly trained military I've ever seen. The Afghans that they were supposed to be mentoring knew better than their Turkish advisors. Living with ~20 Turkish officers for over 6 months, I saw 4 of them in uniform... once. Otherwise they stayed in civilian clothes, watched movies and hung out in the dining facility getting fatter. Also (until they were banned from our latrines) they stood on our god damned toilets, leaving dirty footprints all over the toilet seats. Having worked with coalition military members from over 20 countries, I found the Turks to be the absolute bottom of the barrel. And this isn't my sole sentiment as an American. The Turks are the most hated people in Afghanistan, and that's including the Taliban.
By destroy Iraq do you mean the initial invasion (in which case that's what happens when an army takes over a country by force) or do you mean post major combat aka occupation (in which case any damage and/or loss of innocent life after that point is the sole cause of insurgents aka your fellow Muslims)?
Your comments are exactly why change is needed in that region of the world. You, and apperantly the civilian parts of Baghdad you've been too, have this 'Blame American/West' mindset that essentially removes any and all responsibility for your actions and places it on us.
Instead of blaming the insurgent who's shooting at American forces (why exactly is he doing that? They're there to keep the peace in the country while it gets sorted out, not to be shot at...oh, that's right, he's shooting at them because...well, because why again????), and then they return fire (after waiting for 30 minutes getting shot at to get permission to engage, something no other military would ever do but we do anyways because we want to be "fair" to the same civilian population that has elements shooting at us), and because they actually have more tools for the job than an AK-47, civilians end up getting hurt and/or killed (because, the insurgent didn't pick the middle of no where to engage, he picked a crowded market/civilian area, so he could get away and/or make sure the American's hurt as many civilians as possible), and we're the ones that get blamed?????
Lets make up an analogy even a ME Muslim should be able to understand:
1.) You have a crowded room, with no way out. (Iraq, post major combat)
2.) In it is a group of men, walking around the room, and they're carrying large sticks for security, else the others in the room will end up killing each other. (men with sticks = US, others = different Iraqi's)
3.) A F'ing idiot comes into the room, throws a bunch of venomous snakes - that fly - everywhere. (insurgents ((aka fellow Muslims)), AQI ((aka fellow Muslims)))
4.) The men beat the venomous snakes down, and because they're in a room packed with people, the people they're there to protect from themselves get hurt. (US forces combating insurgents in crowded population densities, with civilians getting hurt)
5.) This analogy cannot be changed or added to.
Who should we blame for the people getting hurt?
The civilians? No, they're supposed to be there.
US forces? No, post major combat, they need to be there to maintain security.
F'ing idiot insurgents? According to you, apperantly not....
Strange, strange view of Reality you have there.....
Chuck
SamurAchzar
Platinum Member
- Feb 15, 2006
- 2,422
- 3
- 76
Orignal Earl
Diamond Member
- Oct 27, 2005
- 8,059
- 55
- 86
The blame can be narrowed down to the chucky types
The death of every Iraqi since the invasion is chuckys fault.
The 100,000's of refugees are his fault too.
It's just their nature not to accept their responsibility
Sad but true
Nebor is just pissed because his job was cleaning the latrines
The death of every Iraqi since the invasion is chuckys fault.
The 100,000's of refugees are his fault too.
It's just their nature not to accept their responsibility
Sad but true
Nebor is just pissed because his job was cleaning the latrines
- Aug 4, 2007
- 16,809
- 13
- 0
Hamid Karzai: From this day forth, all the toilets in the Afghan kingdom shall be known as. . .Nebor!
Crowd: [ cheers ] …
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