Pandering 101

[lupi]

So, whom was it that didn't want any FL/MI delegates and then relented to half only to ensure full delegate votes weren't allowed?

Perhaps we should ask for a congressional trial to re-examine the election for Dewey while we're at it too.


(CNN) -- Sen. Barack Obama said Sunday that delegates from Florida and Michigan should get a "full vote" at the Democratic convention this month.


Sen. Barack Obama said Sunday that Michigan and Florida delegates should get a full vote.

"I believe party unity calls for the delegates from Florida and Michigan to be able to participate fully alongside the delegates from the other states and territories," he said in a letter to the co-chairs of the Democratic National Convention's Credentials Committee.

Obama asked the committee to pass a resolution when it meets on August 24 to give each delegate a full vote.

Florida and Michigan were stripped of their delegates as a penalty for holding their primaries too early. During the primary season, there were growing calls to seat the delegations as Obama and Sen. Hillary Clinton were locked in a tight race for their party's nomination. Obama and Clinton were about 100 delegates apart in March, and Florida and Michigan's cache of 366 delegates had the potential to shake up the race.

The battle over the states' delegates became a key issue on the campaign trail. Clinton had long advocated seating both states' delegations. She won both primaries, but the Democratic candidates had agreed to not campaign in the two states and she was the only top-tier candidate on the ballot in Michigan.

Clinton's message that "every vote should count" became a key theme in her stump speeches. She accused Obama of being "un-American" for not backing plans to hold a revote in the two states.

The Illinois senator denied claims he was standing in the way of revotes.

"I want the Michigan delegation and the Florida delegation to be seated. And however the Democratic National Committee determines we can get that done, I'm happy to abide by those rules," he told CNN in March.

After months of wrangling over what to do, the DNC's rules and bylaws committee voted in late May to reinstate all of Florida and Michigan's delegates, with each getting a half-vote.

In his letter Sunday, Obama said all the delegates should be seated with a full vote for the sake of party unity.

"As a candidate for the nomination, I supported the DNC's efforts to establish and enforce a schedule for primaries and caucuses that would broaden the opportunity for Democrats from all regions of the country and all backgrounds and walks of life to have a meaningful voice," he wrote.

"As we prepare to come together in Denver, however, we must be -- and will be -- united in our determination to change the course of our nation. To that end, Democrats in Florida and Michigan must know that they are full partners and colleagues in our historic mission to reshape Washington and lead our country in a new direction."

Clinton on Sunday called Obama's request "the right position" for their party.

"During the campaign, I strongly advocated for the Democratic Party to seat the Florida and Michigan delegation with their full votes. The Democratic Party has always stood up for the principle of counting every person's vote. Today, Sen. Obama has requested that the Credentials Committee give Florida and Michigan delegates their full votes. This is the right position for the Democratic Party and for the country and I urge the Credentials Committee to restore full votes to Florida and Michigan delegates," she said in a statement.

In a statement issued Sunday, the DNC and the Credentials Committee said they "deeply appreciate and value Sen. Obama's perspective."

"This matter will be the top priority for the Credentials Committee when we meet on August 24. As always our goal is to ensure a fair process and a unified Democratic Party so that we can win in November."

The Democratic convention takes place August 25-28 in Denver, Colorado.

 

[Slew Foot]

Whatever works in your favor, its what all politicians do.
If the American people wanted sex with goats, you'd bet the politicians would be all over that the next day.

 

[fskimospy]

Uhmm, didn't everyone know that eventually the full delegations would be seated? This was common knowledge even back when this whole dispute happened. Go read some articles from then and you will see that this was predicted for months and months. The DNC couldn't allow for screwed up and unfair elections to determine their nomination process, but obviously after the nomination process was done they were going to put them back in.

 

[Infohawk]

As Slew Foot pointed out, it's in the nature of politicians to pander. That said, there are two kids of panderers: those that only pander to their base and those that try to pander to everyone. On one side you have GWB and the other side you have BHO. Which kind of pandering do you prefer?

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Slew Foot
Whatever works in your favor, its what all politicians do.
If the American people wanted sex with goats, you'd bet the politicians would be all over that the next day.

With tax breaks and incentives.

The OP is Trolling 101. This is not news. If the Dem parties in FL and MI hadn't screwed up their primaries in the first place, this problem would never even have existed.

 

[waggy]

ok wow. crappy title.

 

[Infohawk]

Originally posted by: waggy
ok wow. crappy title.

This is P n' N, where you can get all the latest headlines through a partisan kaleidoscope.

 

[nageov3t]

rules are rules, until they're not... kinda reminds me of the drilling thing -- Obama stays mum on the issue until it's too late for it to actually matter.

edit: I wonder what this means for the drama over whether or not Hillary's delegates will even get to vote.

 

[Aegeon]

This is what everyone knowledgeable expected on this point.

Basically the states have already been effectively punished by not having their votes fully count until its been very effectively decided who is going to be nominated by the Democrats for President, at this point its basically a symbolic act to appease the actual voters in the state.

All this suggests is Obama is not a stupid politician who recognizes when a point has been made and a move with no real consequences is the right one to make.

(Basically, the Democratic Party has established that states can get effectively punished electorally regarding the Democratic Nomination if they violate the rules and rush to be one of the first primaries, that should help the party set hopefully new rules in the future and avoid the primaries for the 2012 election actually ending up starting in 2009 or something.)

 

[Fern]

Well like the drilling thing, I suppose this is "pandering". But personally, I would call it good "politics".

I believe drilling was gonna pass in the Senate anyway, and polls show a majority favor it (even Dems). However since Pelosi refused to allow a vote, it won't pass before the Prez elections anyway. Obama gets to pose as a "compromiser" and there will be no drilling approved before the elections. It's pretty smart to realize when you can have your cake and eat it too.

On the delegate reversal - Super D's can switch votes, unless there is a backroom deal I'd be wary if I were Obama. Hillary can waltz into the Convention claiming the FL & MI delegates and make a stink about the Super D's over-ruling the voters and being anti-women. What's to stop her? (Don't mention shame etc) Otherwise, his new stance strikes me as similar to the drilling reversal. It's "good politics" and who is gonna care? Really, most voters haven't a clue about these kinds of details.

McCain better get with the program.

Fern

 

[SViscusi]

Originally posted by: Fern
What's to stop her? (Don't mention shame etc)

She would never do that. She doesn't have the backing of Super Delegates to do that. Even her main surrogates would revolt.

 

[Jhhnn]

This is precisely what Dean predicted months ago- that the eventual nominee would call for those delegations to be seated, and that they would be...

Part of it, I'm sure, is that Ms Clinton is being far more gracious in defeat than her Rush inspired faux supporters...

http://www.nydailynews.com/new...t_to_be_nominated.html

Wasn't the OP part of the "poor, poor states who don't get represented because of the big bad Obama" song and dance awhile back?

Right now, he's definitely part of the "no matter what Obama does it's wrong" team, that's for sure...

 

[nageov3t]

Originally posted by: Jhhnn
This is precisely what Dean predicted months ago- that the eventual nominee would call for those delegations to be seated, and that they would be...

Part of it, I'm sure, is that Ms Clinton is being far more gracious in defeat than her Rush inspired faux supporters...

http://www.nydailynews.com/new...t_to_be_nominated.html

Wasn't the OP part of the "poor, poor states who don't get represented because of the big bad Obama" song and dance awhile back?

Right now, he's definitely part of the "no matter what Obama does it's wrong" team, that's for sure...

it just rings a little hallow after he pushed the "rules are rules" line so hard when it actually mattered.

 

[Corbett]

Originally posted by: Vic
The OP is Trolling 101.

You can set your watch to how long it takes a Obamabot to post something like this.

 

[lupi]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Slew Foot
Whatever works in your favor, its what all politicians do.
If the American people wanted sex with goats, you'd bet the politicians would be all over that the next day.

With tax breaks and incentives.

The OP is Trolling 101. This is not news. If the Dem parties in FL and MI hadn't screwed up their primaries in the first place, this problem would never even have existed.

Yeah, let's just not bump the dozens of threads where you schmucks were screaming "what about the rules!". This is just another is a seemingly endless stream of examples of your messiah doing nothing more than saying hope and change while playing with smoke and mirrors; hoping that the gullible masses don't notice the smoke and mirrors.

 

[jonks]

I'm not even going to bother with a search for what people here were saying in January/February when Hillary called for full seating. I won't bother posting all the blog comments and Obama campaign statements about how full seating would undermine the entire nomination process. I won't go looking for the KO comment expressing outrage about how Hillary will say or do anything to win.

"Rules are rules." - Obama Campaign Spokesman circa Jan - April 2008.

"Hell we won the nomination, who gives a fuck about the rules?" Obama, August 2008.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: jonks
I'm not even going to bother with a search for what people here were saying in January/February when Hillary called for full seating. I won't bother posting all the blog comments and Obama campaign statements about how full seating would undermine the entire nomination process. I won't go looking for the KO comment expressing outrage about how Hillary will say or do anything to win.

"Rules are rules." - Obama Campaign Spokesman circa Jan - April 2008.

"Hell we won the nomination, who gives a fuck about the rules?" Obama, August 2008.

If you go back and read up on it you will see people all predicting that regardless of the outcome the full delegations would be seated.

You guys seem to be missing the difference between using the full delegations for the nomination process (which would have been obviously unfair) and having a feel good moment at the convention. (which this obviously is)

This has nothing to do with actually picking a nominee. Everyone knew from the start that once someone had the nomination locked up the full delegate counts would be returned.

 

[Aegeon]

Originally posted by: jonks
I'm not even going to bother with a search for what people here were saying in January/February when Hillary called for full seating. I won't bother posting all the blog comments and Obama campaign statements about how full seating would undermine the entire nomination process. I won't go looking for the KO comment expressing outrage about how Hillary will say or do anything to win.

"Rules are rules." - Obama Campaign Spokesman circa Jan - April 2008.

"Hell we won the nomination, who gives a fuck about the rules?" Obama, August 2008.

Actually if you care about the rules, they ARE effectively mostly getting followed here.

As noted, Florida and Michigan have been very effectively punished by not counting all their delegates until the nominee has already been effectively determine.

As the rules stated, the Democrats were unable to change things earlier to count all the delegates fully, but are allowed to do so at the convention which is when this decision will be formally made.

Basically, a substantial portion of us were ALREADY saying in April that what would happen is all the delegates would eventually be counted as long as it no longer mattered by the point this policy is changed. (The key was for most of us that the Democratic Party could effectively punish violators and Obama wouldn't be hurt by the Michigan and Florida votes suddenly being counted since it had previous been stated that they would not. Since Obama is in a position where this change will no longer hurt him and the two states have been effectively punished, the rules have been enforced in all the ways that matter.)

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Corbett

Originally posted by: Vic
The OP is Trolling 101.

You can set your watch to how long it takes a Obamabot to post something like this.

Yeah, I'll keep that in mind the next time I see one of your kneejerk hack posts.

The OP has been trolling this same crap for months. And every time he intentionally misrepresents the circumstances and situation. Kind of like you do with all your posts, but he's an angry Hillarybot and you're just a fundie nutjob.

As it is, the only thing Lupi is upset about here is what he had been told would happen months ago. It's like he created this thread for the purpose of owning himself.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: lupi
Yeah, let's just not bump the dozens of threads where you schmucks were screaming "what about the rules!". This is just another is a seemingly endless stream of examples of your messiah doing nothing more than saying hope and change while playing with smoke and mirrors; hoping that the gullible masses don't notice the smoke and mirrors.

I would *LOVE* for you to just link to those threads in this thread. I'll even ask nicely and say please.

 

[Corbett]

Originally posted by: Vic
Yeah, I'll keep that in mind the next time I see one of your kneejerk hack posts.

Hello pot? This is kettle...

Originally posted by: Vic
you're just a fundie nutjob.

Nice try, but it doesn't stick. But good to see I'm right since you are obviously so riled up when someone calls you out on your falling all over yourself to slam anyone against the black Jesus.
[/quote]

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Corbett

Originally posted by: Vic
Yeah, I'll keep that in mind the next time I see one of your kneejerk hack posts.

Hello pot? This is kettle...

Originally posted by: Vic
you're just a fundie nutjob.

Nice try, but it doesn't stick. But good to see I'm right since you are obviously so riled up when someone calls you out on your falling all over yourself to slam anyone against the black Jesus.

[/quote]

Is this actually your idea of a rebuttal?

I get told I love 'the black Jesus' by some hack who would eagerly go down on both McCain and Bush at the same time if he ever got the chance?

Nice duh-version. Try staying on topic.

 

[UberNeuman]

Originally posted by: Corbett

Originally posted by: Vic
Yeah, I'll keep that in mind the next time I see one of your kneejerk hack posts.

Hello pot? This is kettle...

Originally posted by: Vic
you're just a fundie nutjob.

Nice try, but it doesn't stick. But good to see I'm right since you are obviously so riled up when someone calls you out on your falling all over yourself to slam anyone against the black Jesus.

[/quote]

I always have laugh over those who keep crying Mr. Obama is a messiah - it seems to be the rightwingers who keep crapping that one out...........

 

[RY62]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: lupi
Yeah, let's just not bump the dozens of threads where you schmucks were screaming "what about the rules!". This is just another is a seemingly endless stream of examples of your messiah doing nothing more than saying hope and change while playing with smoke and mirrors; hoping that the gullible masses don't notice the smoke and mirrors.

I would *LOVE* for you to just link to those threads in this thread. I'll even ask nicely and say please.

This is one of those rare cases where the forum search actually works fairly well. Simply search for Florida Michigan Rules and you'll find what you'd "LOVE" to see.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: RY62

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: lupi
Yeah, let's just not bump the dozens of threads where you schmucks were screaming "what about the rules!". This is just another is a seemingly endless stream of examples of your messiah doing nothing more than saying hope and change while playing with smoke and mirrors; hoping that the gullible masses don't notice the smoke and mirrors.

I would *LOVE* for you to just link to those threads in this thread. I'll even ask nicely and say please.

This is one of those rare cases where the forum search actually works fairly well. Simply search for Florida Michigan Rules and you'll find what you'd "LOVE" to see.

Which is why you don't link them then? I'm sure that's because they don't say what you wish they did. Hillary who tried to break the rules. It was the Hillarybots that were screaming she should be able to break the rules.
"Rules are rules" applies to the people trying to break the rules. Not to voters who never did anything wrong.
So no matter how much you and the OP try to spin it, there is no reason that the voters of FL and MI should be punished because Hillary tried to break the rules. NO ONE ever said their delegates shouldn't be seated at the convention, and it was always expected that they would be.