Palestinians, Israelis trade rockets, airstrikes

[Orignal Earl]

As usual; you are dream or using Lemon law`s mushrooms...

Ya, I are dream shrooms

 

[bfdd]

An unknown militant group shoots off a rocket and injures a girl.
As usual, Israel launches ten fold destruction back including evil dairy plants.
It would be like your city taking out your block because you failed to stop the guy on the end of the block from slapping his wife.

Earl, terrible analogy. It would be like blowing up your neighbors garage cause he shot your dog.

 

[bfdd]

Back at you.
This is not WW2 we are talking about here. Where has this thinking worked since then?

Actually that kind of thinking always works, it's the new line of thinking, the pussy footing around in war, that isn't working and allowing stupid little conflicts like this to last forever. We're talking about WAR here, not tea time.

 

[SamurAchzar]

If anyone read the link provided by by Samur, it was careful not to say that Hamas was the group importing and firing an advanced Russian anti-tank weapon. And instead called it an identified organization.

Do you think ordinary citizens have access to state of the art Russian anti-tank missiles? Even the nastiest of drug cartels aren't able to acquire weapons of this caliber.

But the last time Israel went into Gaza, all that the Gaza militants had to defend themselves with were rocks and bottles,

They had guns, missiles and explosives. They ran like chickens when IDF entered Gaza, despite talking tough before the excursion. The Arab story, really.

but in a similar Israeli incursion into Lebanon that occurred two to three years before, found Israeli tanks facing those same missiles
used with great effect by Hezbollah.

The damages inflicted by the Russian missiles were not significant in the context of the 2006 conflict, as evidenced here:

In total, 50 Merkava tanks were damaged, eight of which remained serviceable on the battlefield. Two Merkava Mark IVs were damaged beyond repair, one by powerful IEDs, and another, it is believed, by Russian AT-14 'Kornet' missiles. All but two Merkava Mark IV tanks damaged during the war were repaired and returned to the IDF.

(Merkava Wiki)

That Kornet that fired at the Israeli tank now in Gaza did not cause any injuries. IDF said it didn't explode but that's BS, either it was incapacitated by one of the two Israeli active systems (TROPHY and the other one) or it didn't penetrate the vehicle.

At least those Russian rockets help even the odds, and keeping Israeli tanks and ground forces out of Lebanon has an overall good effect.

It's unlikely these missiles will be very effective against Merkava IV equipped with active defenses. If anything, it will allow Israel to step up its operations.

Now if Israeli ground forces stay the hell out of Gaza, that too would help lead to peace.

If having thousands of rockets fall in your territory in one year constitutes peace, you can keep that peace to yourself.
In general I don't see any reason to negotiate with Hamas, they are isolated and desperate, cut off by Israel and Egypt. Let them come begging.

West Bank is another story, but that's not what being discussed here. Unfortunately you try to derail every thread about ME affairs into an Israeli delegitimization fest with assessments that are more fitting to a Wizard Of Oz remake (like a worldwide embargo on Israel ). Good luck with that.

 

[Freshgeardude]

And now Common Courtesy add in the continuing Israeli propaganda of, "If Hamas actually wanted peace, they could have it. They do not want it; they desire/require conflict."

Well if that were true, the good peaceful Palestinians in the West Bank should have gotten that peace in Annapolis and again in the latest Obama negotiations. And now the world is increasingly realizing that no matter how the Palestinians behave, Israel will never give anything back and that the Common Courtesy contention is simply an Israeli smokescreen.

And that Abbas is 100% correct, why even play the Israeli charade while Israel settles and settles on West Bank land it can never own. As the Pals and the rest of the world increasingly realize Israel says one thing and does quite another. Israel has had two chances in Annapolis and now with the Obama plan, and have PROVED TO THE ENTIRE WORLD that Israel is the only party unwilling to work towards peace.

Job one is to stop 100% of Israeli settlement in the West Bank and East Jerusalem. Job two is to start expelling all Israeli settlers in the West Bank and East Jerusalem so we can set up a Palestinian State with a minimum amount of violence.

Yet again you think it it so simple. Israel stopped all settlements for 10 months. No plaestians came.

Israel already proved to the world they were going to stop if the otherbside committed.

You simply believe that if Israel puts its guns down and clear out of post 67 land, Hamas will stop its operation? U never directly coke to the inevitable fact that in Hamas 's charter, it calls for the destruction of the Jewish state. It does not say "fight until the land is back to the 67borders"


Get off the crack your smoking

 

[SamurAchzar]

An unknown militant group shoots off a rocket and injures a girl.
As usual, Israel launches ten fold destruction back including evil dairy plants.
It would be like your city taking out your block because you failed to stop the guy on the end of the block from slapping his wife.

By your marginal logic, if you attempted to murder someone and failed, you can just walk away because no one got hurt.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Of course, from the standpoint of a totally pro-Israeli fan clubber, only the Israeli viewpoint is "TOTALLY CORRECT."

What is being missed here is that basically 60%+ of the entire state of Israel is propped up on the foundation of theft of Palestinian land. And now to add injury to insult, Israel wants to retain and dominate the West Bank and Gaza in addition.

But after 62 or 43 years of Israeli stalling stalling and stalling, nothing is getting accomplished toward solving how to restore some equivalent fairness to the Palestinians.

If the world looks at it from just the pro-Israeli point of view, the Palestinians refugee crisis we traded for an Jewish refugee crisis in 1948 will never be solved.

But that is now the Israeli problem, the world is getting increasingly losing patience with the Israeli propaganda that they are the reasonable ones. And the next entity that tries to set up a Palestinians state is not going to be asking Israel to get the heck out of the West Bank and Gaza, they will be forcing Israel to get out because Israel no longer has any moral standing. Probable means, an Israeli economic embargo.

When it comes, a few million totally pro-Israeli fan clubbers will be amazed, and probably another larger group of totally pro Israeli fan clubbers will be totally amazed at how long Israel got away with their propaganda before the jig was up.

If we look at the Israeli Palestinian conflict from a fairness perspective, no fair minded person could totally side with the current Israeli government and its settler parties.

But no one on this forum is accusing JediY and the other pro-Israeli fan clubbers of being fair minded.

Do the Palestinians want fairness or want it all?
Do they even know what they want?

One group does not show up for negotiations; when they do they then walk away after wasting time.

A second group wants there to be no negotiations and is encouraging conflict with the Israelis.

But that is now the Israeli problem, the world is getting increasingly losing patience with the Israeli propaganda that they are the reasonable ones. And the next entity that tries to set up a Palestinians state is not going to be asking Israel to get the heck out of the West Bank and Gaza, they will be forcing Israel to get out because Israel no longer has any moral standing. Probable means, an Israeli economic embargo.

Rinse and repeat.
There is no evidence of such being planned.
The world has seen the Palestinians walk away from the table.
The world has seen the Palestinians attack Israel.

Wake up: the world is not going to side with sympathy to the Palestinians because the Palestinians have not yet shown that they want to resolve the issue.

Too much exposure has happened on how the Palestinians operate to allow a blanket victim card to be played.

All those funds that were sent to the Palsistineans was shown to be diverted into leadership private accounts.

The fact that the Palestinians can not sneeze without approval from the Arab league.

Two seperate groups claim power - who does represent the Palestinians?

They are their own worst enemy.

 

[Lemon law]

What is being perhaps missed here is that the Mid-east conflicts are heating up again, and at the rate things are going, will never end. Prior violence and theft is being used to justify more violence and theft, as a mid-east proxy arms race is just starting to begin in the last decade.

But as time goes on, nothing is being done, particularly on the Israeli side to defuse the mutual hatreds. Longer term, the only big winners will be international terrorists groups that will, sooner or later, acquire very dangerous WMD and the means to deploy it in Israel itself.

 

[Orignal Earl]

By your marginal logic, if you attempted to murder someone and failed, you can just walk away because no one got hurt.

How do you people figure Hamas would be able to stop every single Palestinian from acting against Israel?
Your local police force cannot stop criminal behavior from happening, thousands of insane things go down in the US every single day. I don't get how you guys can't see that.

 

[Scotteq]

But as time goes on, nothing is being done, particularly on the Israeli side to defuse the mutual hatreds. Longer term, the only big winners will be international terrorists groups that will, sooner or later, acquire very dangerous WMD and the means to deploy it in Israel itself.

Well... Given that their enemies are sworn to totally destroying the entire state of Israel and its inhabitants, I can understand the reluctance.


Or in more sarcastic terms: Blaming them for not doing enough to defuse the situation is like criticizing your neighbor (who's dog you shot earlier in this thread) for not hanging himself because you want his house.

 

[Freshgeardude]

an interesting turn of events in an article on Jpost on the same matter

http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=200574

'UN's Serry condemns rocket fire'

Earlier Wednesday, UN Middle East envoy Robert Serry condemned the "firing of indiscriminate mortars and rockets by militant groups in Gaza at Israel which has escalated in recent days."

"These attacks are in clear violation of international humanitarian law and endanger civilians in Israel,'' Serry said in a statement.

He said that Israel has a right to self-defense but urged Jerusalem "to exercise maximum restraint and take every precaution to ensure that its forces do not endanger civilians in Gaza."

Israel has a clear green light by the UN to defend itself while take every precaution to protect civilians.

i wont be surprised if they do a complete turnaround in the next few days because of the arab control of the UN

 

[Genx87]

How do you people figure Hamas would be able to stop every single Palestinian from acting against Israel?
Your local police force cannot stop criminal behavior from happening, thousands of insane things go down in the US every single day. I don't get how you guys can't see that.

Go launch a missile in any US city and see how long it takes for the cops to show up and arrest you. That is if people dont report you while you are erecting the launcher. These missiles are launched, why arent the people shooting them arrested by Hamas?

 

[ericlp]

jews killing jews..... Whhooo! How ya liking it so far?

 

[EagleKeeper]

What is being perhaps missed here is that the Mid-east conflicts are heating up again, and at the rate things are going, will never end. Prior violence and theft is being used to justify more violence and theft, as a mid-east proxy arms race is just starting to begin in the last decade.

But as time goes on, nothing is being done, particularly on the Israeli side to defuse the mutual hatreds. Longer term, the only big winners will be international terrorists groups that will, sooner or later, acquire very dangerous WMD and the means to deploy it in Israel itself.

What should Israel do to diffuse the hatreds.

The Jews have been hated long before the Palestinians arrived and started to play the game.

The Palestinians have wanted to play with a loaded dice provided by the Arabs and Israel will not let them.

There are two things that be done to reduce the tensions.
The Palestinians have their own state and the Palestinians make an honest attempt to stop all violence against Israel from within the Palestinian controlled territory.

Without the second, there can be no first.

At present, the Palestinians are demonstrating that they do not want to implement the second item.

If the tensions are not reduced and the weapon use becomes more severe, it wil be the Palestinians that are going to suffer as much as Israel.

Israel has nothing to lose by an escalation; her enemies already want her destoryed.
The destruction of Israel will also cause the destruction of the Palestinians; we know that the Palestinian leaders has no problem sending people as suicide bombers; but are they themselves willing to be on the front lines.

 

[EagleKeeper]

How do you people figure Hamas would be able to stop every single Palestinian from acting against Israel?
Your local police force cannot stop criminal behavior from happening, thousands of insane things go down in the US every single day. I don't get how you guys can't see that.

There is a buffer zone between Gaza and Israel. It is not liking walking across the street.

Hamas has spies/lookouts within all organizations - they do not want to be out of control. Hamas knows who assembles those missile and for which group. the supplies for the missiles come through Hamas.

Someone has to drive a vehicle to certain launch sites to be able to send a home grown missle into Israel such that it will hit a settlement. (Think of RV trailer pads)
The missile has to be unloaded, assembled, mounted, primed and then fired.
These are not a shoulder fired stinger.

 

[Orignal Earl]

Go launch a missile in any US city and see how long it takes for the cops to show up and arrest you. That is if people dont report you while you are erecting the launcher. These missiles are launched, why arent the people shooting them arrested by Hamas?

My point is the cops (usually) don't blow the hell out of the entire block because of a single kook, and no matter how much Americans are encouraged to report their neighbors, shit still happens.
You can't stop all the kooks.

 

[EagleKeeper]

My point is the cops (usually) don't blow the hell out of the entire block because of a single kook, and no matter how much Americans are encouraged to report their neighbors, shit still happens.
You can't stop all the kooks.

You can not stop all; but when it becomes a pattern, you get suspicious.

And if every kook is required to check in any weapons before they enter the block; one will ask why they have a weapon.

 

[Freshgeardude]

My point is the cops (usually) don't blow the hell out of the entire block because of a single kook, and no matter how much Americans are encouraged to report their neighbors, shit still happens.
You can't stop all the kooks.

since when was israel the police of the palestinians?

its like mexico shooting rockets at the US.

would the US not respond severely?

 

[Karl Agathon]

What is being perhaps missed here is that the Mid-east conflicts are heating up again, and at the rate things are going, will never end. Prior violence and theft is being used to justify more violence and theft, as a mid-east proxy arms race is just starting to begin in the last decade.

But as time goes on, nothing is being done, particularly on the Israeli side to defuse the mutual hatreds. Longer term, the only big winners will be international terrorists groups that will, sooner or later, acquire very dangerous WMD and the means to deploy it in Israel itself.

I have seen you say this quite a few times. I dont disagree that there certainly is a possibility for that to happen. My question to you is. Do you think if a WMD goes off in israel that the israelis will just let themselves be lambs to the slaughter? You seem like a fairly intelligent person. You must know that would most likelly cause a "Sampson Option" type event. Escpecially if neighboring countries decide to try and "take advantage" of the situation and decide they want to finish off slaughtering the israelis. At the very least, there would be massive retaliation if 10s of thousands of israelis were slaughtered. its not going to be like "BOOM, ten thousand israelis are killed, no big deal, life will go on like nothing happened"

 

[SamurAchzar]

I have seen you say this several times. I dont disagree that there certainly is a possibility for that to happen. My question to you is. Do you think if a WMD or nuke goes off in israel that the israelis will just let themselves be lambs to the slaughter? You seem like a fairly intelligent person. You must know that would most likelly cause a "Sampson Option" type event,. At the very least, there would be massive retaliation if 10s of thousands of israelis were slaughtered.

As recent history shows, if someone wants to avoid large scale terrorism, Israel is probably the safest place on earth. When was the last time someone tried to hijack an El Al airliner? Even when The security arrangement in Israel and its assets around the world are better than anyone else's, and the Israeli intelligence is the best around.

Muslims prefer much softer targets to hit, such as in 9/11 and later in Europe. Europeans are weak and incapable of defending themselves - that's what years of "cultural openness" do to you.

Shit, man, Israel is the only countries with airliners that give you AA countermeasures as part of the hospitality package:

Countermeassures
The Israeli airline El Al uses an infrared countermeasure system - once used by the British military in Northern Ireland[citation needed] - that inteferes with the SAM's seeker system, making it less accurate. It is not known whether such a system was used on the Arkia flight.[3] However Arkia had a contract with the Israeli government, and one of its two Boeing 757 planes had earlier that year flown Prime Minister Ariel Sharon to Washington, and by implication that plane was fitted with Infrared countermeasures for protection.[4] It is not known if this plane in Kenya was the same plane that transported Ariel Sharon, but since none of the missiles hit the aircraft, it is probable that this plane as well was fitted with countermeasures that tampers with the SAM's seeker system.[original research?] Reports from passengers tended to confirm the idea that some sort of antimissile defence system had been deployed.[citation needed] Eyewitnesses reported seeing a small explosion above one of the plane’s wings suggesting that decoy flares had been fired.[4]

The pilots planned on an emergency landing in Nairobi after seeing the two missiles streak past them, but decided to continue to Israel. The airliner landed at Ben Gurion Airport in Tel Aviv about five hours later, escorted by Israeli F-15 fighter jets.[5]

(Tells about the Mombassa attacks, where Muslims tried downing an Israeli Boeing 757 using Strela-2 MANPADs)

 

[Lemon law]

Notice that clever propaganda here as sammy sez, "Tells about the Mombassa attacks, where Muslims tried downing an Israeli Boeing 757 using Strela-2 MANPADs"

As if the entire Muslim religion was behind a single group of nuts who happened to be Muslim?

After all, we can find endless examples of individuals of any one given group of people being rascals, but to then try to paint the entire rest of the group as being rascals is simply where racial predecease starts and spreads.

 

[JEDIYoda]

try to paint the entire rest of the group as being rascals is simply where racial predecease starts and spreads.

Sorry to pop your bubble but they as Samurachzar says...or as you so eloquesntly stated -- but to then try to paint the entire rest of the group as being rascals is simply where racial predecease starts and spreads.

 

[SamurAchzar]

Notice that clever propaganda here as sammy sez, "Tells about the Mombassa attacks, where Muslims tried downing an Israeli Boeing 757 using Strela-2 MANPADs"

As if the entire Muslim religion was behind a single group of nuts who happened to be Muslim?

After all, we can find endless examples of individuals of any one given group of people being rascals, but to then try to paint the entire rest of the group as being rascals is simply where racial predecease starts and spreads.

I didn't say "all Muslims". I didn't say Islam tried to down a plane. Just Muslims. These were Muslims trying to murder Jews - is this anything but a Jihad?

 

[Lemon law]

I didn't say "all Muslims". I didn't say Islam tried to down a plane. Just Muslims. These were Muslims trying to murder Jews - is this anything but a Jihad?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No you did not say all Muslims, you just said Muslims, and then you compound your error by making a few nuts into an entire Muslim Jihad against all Jews.

It does not surprise me that you remain blind to your own racial bigotry, but methinks many others will see your futile denial.

 

[Darwin333]

Back at you.
This is not WW2 we are talking about here. Where has this thinking worked since then?

Its pretty much the only proven method of warfare. When has it seriously been used since then by any significant force?


From a military perspective it worked real damned well in Iraq. How long did it take us to initially take over the country, a week?

How long did it take Russia to fuck up Georgia (and they were kinda nice about it)?

As far as currently, its working real well in the parts of Africa that are shitholes and closer to home it is currently working in Mexico. Unfortunately, I wouldn't call either of those examples the "good" guys winning but the tactic has stood the test of time and continues to be effective.

When has overwhelming force not worked would be a much shorter list.