Palestinians / Arab / Israeli Misc Thread

[SandEagle]

Originally posted by: ayabe
Saw this last night for the first time.

I think the best line is something like "The fate of Israel is in your hands!!!"

In fact, I even wrote an email to MSNBC to complain about it. Blatant and insulting propaganda.

Propaganda, exactly. Why are they showing this on American cable tv anyway? I don't see any similar types of ads for any other countries in distress?

I highly doubt the majority of Israel is suffering that bad. Our tax dollars helped build a very nice looking place.

http://www.planetware.com/pictures/israel-isr.htm?pg=2
http://www.pbase.com/doronav/telaviv2
http://www.twip.org/photo/midd...-30-07-08-06-22-05.jpg

 

[CaptainGoodnight]

But it's ok when Palastenians fake videos.

 

[SandEagle]

Originally posted by: CaptainGoodnight
But it's ok when Palastenians fake videos.

and its okay for israel to create fake Al Qaeda cells in Gaza?

http://www.smh.com.au/articles.../08/1038950271656.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2550513.stm
http://whatreallyhappened.com/...tml?q=fakealqaeda.html

 

[dahunan]

Same question I have.. Why couldn't the Moral and Righteous Europeans protect and treat Jewish people fair instead of harming Arabs and using guns and weapons to steal land from Arab peoples?

http://www.whatwouldgandhido.net/

GANDHI ON THE CREATION OF ISRAEL


My sympathies are all with the Jews. I have known them intimately in South Africa. Some of them became life-long companions. Through these friends I came to learn much of their age-long persecution. They have been the untouchables of Christianity. The parallel between their treatment by Christians and the treatment of untouchables by Hindus is very close. Religious sanction has been invoked in both cases for the justification of the inhuman treatment meted out to them. Apart from the friendships, therefore, there is the more common universal reason for my sympathy for the Jews.


But my sympathy does not blind me to the requirements of justice. The cry for the national home for the Jews does not make much appeal to me. The sanction for it is sought in the Bible and the tenacity with which the Jews have hankered after return to Palestine. Why should they not, like other peoples of the earth, make that country their home where they are born and where they earn their livelihood?

Palestine belongs to the Arabs in the same sense that England belongs to the English or France to the French. It is wrong and in-human to impose the Jews on the Arabs. What is going on in Palestine today cannot be justified by any moral code of conduct. The mandates have no sanction but that of the last war. Surely it would be a crime against humanity to reduce the proud Arabs so that Palestine can be restored to the Jews partly or wholly as their national home.


The nobler course would be to insist on a just treatment of the Jews wherever they are born and bred. The Jews born in France are French in precisely the same sense that Christians born in France are French. If the Jews have no home but Palestine, will they relish the idea of being forced to leave the other parts of the world in which they are settled? Or do they want a double home where they can remain at will? This cry for the national home affords a colourable justification for the German expulsion of the Jews.


...And now a word to the Jews in Palestine. I have no doubt that they are going about it the wrong way. The Palestine of the Biblical conception is not a geographical tract. It is in their hearts. But if they must look to the Palestine of geography as their national home, it is wrong to enter it under the shadow of the British gun.

A religious act cannot be performed with the aid of the bayonet or the bomb. They can settle in Palestine only by the goodwill of the Arabs. They should seek to convert the Arab heart.... (November 1938)

 

[Farang]

Look man you make some good points but knock it the fuck off

 

[dahunan]

Originally posted by: Farang
Look man you make some good points but knock it the fuck off

Tell that to the people who feel Israel has the right to steal land and the inhabitants don't have a right to retaliate against the thieves

The creation of Israel was an unjust blight on humanity. There was no need to subjugate the Arab peoples in that way.. and destroy their civilization just out of guilt for how The Europeans treated the Jewish..

 

[fallout man]

If jews own Hollywood, they should be able to fake better explosions. This definitely needs more cowbell. The voice acting sucks as well.

I'm going to wait until this shows up on HBO.

 

[AreaCode7O7]

Originally posted by: dahunan

Originally posted by: Farang
Look man you make some good points but knock it the fuck off

Tell that to the people who feel Israel has the right to steal land and the inhabitants don't have a right to retaliate against the thieves

The creation of Israel was an unjust blight on humanity. There was no need to subjugate the Arab peoples in that way.. and destroy their civilization just out of guilt for how The Europeans treated the Jewish..

There are differing historical perspectives about how subjugated the Arabs were at that point, whether the Jews took over land worth having or moved into abandoned desert, whether they destroyed their civilization or their coming simply shed light on a civilization already in the process of destroying itself (or being destroyed by post-colonial rot).

Leaving the question of original right or wrong aside, do you think it would currently be right to dispossess either the Israelis or Palestinians of the land they currently hold, excepting the disputed properties of Gaza and the West Bank?

 

[Dman877]

Can't blame Jews for wanting out of Europe. 2 millenia of persecution will do that to you. Their mistake was trying to live in close proximity to those they conquered.

 

[AreaCode7O7]

My one and only Palestine/Israel thread, I promise.

I am a little fuzzy on what the AT P&N supporters would consider the appropriate endgame for this area with such a history of conflict. I don't necessarily consider the opinions of the posters here to represent the opinions of either the Palestinian people or the Palestinian leadership, so I'll take all responses with a grain of salt, intending to hear only the voices of the people actually speaking.

Please be honest and straightforward in your responses; if you think Israel should be dissolved there's no safer place to state that than on the internet, and I'm truly curious if that is the ideal goal for the Pro-Palestine crowd.

I promise not to flame any of the responses (in this thread ) but I may ask additional questions.

Thanks!

Rough approximation of Original Poll Options (prior to thread consolidation):
- I am neutral or pro-Israeli
- Pro-Palestine: My ultimate end result would be to have Israel gone
- Pro-Palestine: They can have Gaza, we keep West Bank
- Pro-Palestine: They can have West Bank, we keep Gaza

Request out to the mods to have the actual poll options and votes at the time of thread closure sent to me to post here.

 

[GrGr]

Even many South Africans like Nelson Mandela consider Apartheid in South Africa to be less cruel and dehumanizing than the Israeli treatment of the Palestinian people.

"Apartheid is a crime against humanity. Israel has deprived millions of Palestinians of their liberty and property. It has perpetuated a system of gross racial discrimination and inequality. It has systematically incarcerated and tortured thousands of Palestinians, contrary to the rules of international law. It has, in particular, waged a war against a civilian population, in particular children." Nelson Mandela 2001

Boycott Israel. South Africa was boycotted for it's racism and bigotry. Israel is far worse still than even South Africa. Mandela's words were true in 2001. They are even more true and powerfully highlighted by the murders committed in Gaza by Israeli Jews.

 

[kylebisme]

I am neutral; and hence support resolving this conflict with Israeli controlled borders and government in Israel and Palestinian-controlled borders and government in the Palestinian territories of Gaza and the West Bank.

As for your other choices, where do you suppose a Palestine with Palestinian-controlled borders and government, without either Gaza or the West Bank, would be? Do you not realize those territories are the only land Palestinian have left after ceding the rest to Israel at Oslo?

 

[AreaCode7O7]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman
I am neutral; and hence support resolving this conflict with Israeli controlled borders and government in Israel and Palestinian-controlled borders and government in the Palestinian territories of Gaza and the West Bank.

As for your other choices, where do you suppose a Palestine with Palestinian-controlled borders and government, without either Gaza or the West Bank, would be? Do you not realize those territories are the only land Palestinian have left after ceding the rest to Israel at Oslo?

Basically no, I didn't/don't realize that. I'm relatively new to paying attention to the conflict and am trying to understand it better. I know some of the more remote history but am not terribly familiar with the lay of the land, the recent conflicts and causes, etc. So if I seem ignorant, I am. Poll changed to remove option 2 (there were no voters at the point I removed that option.)

 

[Farang]

Originally posted by: dahunan

Originally posted by: Farang
Look man you make some good points but knock it the fuck off

Tell that to the people who feel Israel has the right to steal land and the inhabitants don't have a right to retaliate against the thieves

The creation of Israel was an unjust blight on humanity. There was no need to subjugate the Arab peoples in that way.. and destroy their civilization just out of guilt for how The Europeans treated the Jewish..

I'm referring more to your repetitive posting on this forum rather than any political issue. I'd tell it to anyone who repeated the same idea but felt they were important enough to clog the forums with it.

 

[mxyzptlk]

I'm neutral and I think the ideal endgame should be a single state where Israelis and Palestinians alike can live together, if not in perfect harmony, at least without blowing each other up..

 

[GrGr]

I think in this day and age religion has no place in the political landscape. Let "Pale-Israel" be a secular state with equal right for all citizens under the law. One state, one law, one people of whatever belief or creed. Forget the old rasistic ideal of Zionism. It belongs to the 19th century.

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: AreaCode707
So if I seem ignorant, I am.

It takes quite a bit of effort not to be ignorant of this conflict as little as our media does to help explain it, I've been at it nearly a decade now.

Put simply, Gaza is a small strip of desert along the coast, while the West Bank is the vasty majority of Palestinian territory which is hilly and fertile soil. Israel has held both territories since 1967 and started colonizing soon after conquering them. In 2005 Israel withdrew completely from Gaza to let it descend into chaos while refocusing their efforts on expanding colonization of the West Bank.

Here is fairly recent map depicting the situation in the West Bank:

http://www.btselem.org/Downloa...on_Barrier_Map_Eng.pdf

And there is lots of other relevant information on that site, they are an Israeli human rights group:

http://www.btselem.org/English/index.asp

Originally posted by: mxyzptlk
I'm neutral and I think the ideal endgame should be a single state where Israelis and Palestinians alike can live together, if not in perfect harmony, at least without blowing each other up..

That would be great, but Israel is a Jewish nationalist state which already has far more non-Jews than it wants. Very few Israel Jews have any interest of giving up the ethnic nationalist nature of their state. However, even the vast majorty of the settlers would happily withdraw from the West Bank if only they understood how far that would go to ending this conflict. Unfortunately, their leadership has been intent on convincing them exactly the opposite for over four decades now, while the people on both sides suffer for those leaders lust of land.

Pehraps in some decades the two nations could join as one, but for now a two-state is the far more realistc path.

 

[AreaCode7O7]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman

It takes quite a bit of effort not to be ignorant of this conflict as little as our media does to help explain it, I've been at it nearly a decade now.

Based on the media I've pretty much just overheard, I'd always assumed Israel had an undisputed chunk of land, Palestine had an undisputed chunk of land and they fought over two small chunks of land that were in dispute. So did Israel or anyone else ever hand over money for those two pieces anytime in the past?

 

[fallout man]

There can, and should be a two-state solution. This would require Palestine to be fully independent of Israeli control (not like the full border/airspace/sea control Israel imposes currently). It would also require a viable Palestinian territory--not a bunch of Pali islands scattered between Israeli checkpoints in the West Bank.

Palestine can keep Gaza as a port and smaller population center, while many of the Gazans can live in the West Bank. This would, of course, require acceptably free movement of goods between Gaza and WB, which would be difficult to pull off.

The biggest hurdle is for the Israeli government and Israeli extremists to recognize the Palestinians as living, breathing human beings who deserve life, liberty, and prosperity. This hurdle, in my opinion, is what has been fueling the conflict all along.

There are crazies in the United States, but the vast majority do not identify with them nor support them simply because a vast majority of Americans are doing... OK. Why would a typical well-to-do middle-class person hitch up with a nascent Commie terror cell full of flunkies when they don't have much to complain about and can look to a better future? If you want to say that Islam will still push all Palestinians toward terror, I will take your word for it, and disagree.

Of course, folks like OBL are well-to-do, and hitch up with Islamic terrorists. I firmly believe that this is because they're fucking bat. shit. crazy. psychopaths, and most people are not psychopaths.

The Palestinian extremists will have to return the favor, because they would lose all support if they spit at a reasonable and humane two-state compromise. If there is nothing to bitch about, I truly believe that the common Palestinians will go on with their lives, better themselves, and reject extremism. At the moment, they are broken and indigent.

This can even be seen when you compare Pali's in WB and the Pali's in Gaza. People in the WB, at the least, are employed. Gaza, on the other hand, is an open-air prison. Where is the violence coming from?

Israel can become a place where Palestine is a boon, not a bane. Unfortunately, both parties in the conflict will have to bite their lip very hard and work through this with mutual respect.

I'm a fucking dreamer, aren't I?

 

[fallout man]

Originally posted by: AreaCode707

Originally posted by: TheSnowman

It takes quite a bit of effort not to be ignorant of this conflict as little as our media does to help explain it, I've been at it nearly a decade now.

Based on the media I've pretty much just overheard, I'd always assumed Israel had an undisputed chunk of land, Palestine had an undisputed chunk of land and they fought over two small chunks of land that were in dispute. So did Israel or anyone else ever hand over money for those two pieces anytime in the past?

This kind of sums it up for you:

Generous Offer

 

[mxyzptlk]

except how do you have two separate states where one is wholly contained within the other and still somehow separated from itself..


seriously.. Israelistine (or Palisrael) all the way!

 

[mect]

So, based on what this quote is stating, the Arabs should now just be content with the established borders and let the Jews have Israel. My understanding of what he is saying is that borders have changed throughout history, and we shouldn't identify any country as someone's "homeland". At one point, the Jews lost Israel through war. Then the Arabs lost it to the European nations who took it for the Jews. I'm not stating anything about who had the land first, simply that at one time, the Jews had it, at another, the Arabs. Currently, the Jews have it. So based on Gandhi's statement, it would seem that would mean the Arabs should simply be content with the way things are, that there is no point looking back in history to try to reestablish land to those who have the right to them. The problem with this statement is, how long ago does a section of land have to be forcefully taken by a country before those who lost it should simply relinquish their claim? 10 years? 100 years? 1000 years? Maybe I haven't thought about this enough, but I just don't see anything profound in what Gandhi is saying here.

 

[Steeplerot]

Where is the choice of just being neutral because you think both of the fundamentalist wingnuts who run both shows suck? To infer that only pro-Israeli leaning people could be neutral sucks. What rational person would takes sides in that mess anyhow?

 

[Lemon law]

Farang makes a nonsense argument, good link and post dahunan.

 

[fallout man]

Originally posted by: mxyzptlk
except how do you have two separate states where one is wholly contained within the other and still somehow separated from itself..


seriously.. Israelistine (or Palisrael) all the way!

1967-border Palestine without Israel's "settlements" and "control" would have land borders with Jordan in WB and Egypt in Gaza. If things are peaceful, Gaza stuffs could travel through Israel to Israel and WB, and vice-versa.

Of course, both parties would have to earn each-others' trust to make THAT happen.