Palestinian PM Abbas submits his resignation.

[LilBlinbBlahIce]

Originally posted by: ThePresence

Originally posted by: LilBlinbBlahIce
You may have been there for however long you were serving with the IDF, point is YOU ARE GOING TO BE BIASED. No one ever thinks their side is wrong. I am pretty sure Hamas does not consider itself a terrorist organization just as I am pretty sure people serving in the IDF consider themselves the good guys fighting for the right cause.

What does Hamas consider themselves, if not a terrorist organization? Freedom fighters? Blowing up kids on their way home from school? Freedom fighters? You have got to be kidding me. They know good and well that they are terrorists, but they think it's worth it to achieve their politcal ends.
That is your opinion. You have no way of knowing what they are thinking.

You may beleive protecting illegal settlements

I personally think the settelments are a bad idea, but I don't think that the penalty for living in a settelment should be violent death. So yes, I believe in protecting the lives of the people who live there.
I agree with you, the penalty should not be a violent death. Point is they are stealing land and putting themselves in a vunerable position on land that is not theirs, hence they are legitimate targets. They should not be there.

and shooting kids throwing stones at you is just,

That's a crock. Never happens. Don't believe what you read. If there is shooting, it is rubber bullets.
Rubber bullets kill too, especially a head shot to a little kid. If you can deny that you are a crock.

at the same time they might beleive that shooting at that settlement or dispaching a suicide bomber is also just,

No they don't. They just think it's worth it to achieve political ends.
Once again, that is your baseless opinion and you are completely entitled to it.

point is you're both wrong.

How so?
You are both wrong because violence begets violence. If you are trying to portray the IDF as a peace loving gentle but firm group of chaps you are not going to be convincing anyone. The only way a human can treat another human the way the IDF treats Palestinians is by dehuminizing them, just like the Nazis did. The only way a Pal suicide bomber can do what he does is by dehumnizing the enemy, just like the Nazis did. Hence, IMO, they are both wrong.

And for you to say that we are all media whores just because we were not sitting in the tank next to you is ridiculous

Well, I think most of what passes for news from that region is terribly skewed to reflect the political viewpoints of whatever network it may be.
You are right, skewed to the benefit of Israel. Try critisizing Israel here and you will be crucified as an Anti-Semite. In America, Israel is beyond reproach. Try being sympathetic to the Palestinians and run for office. You won't get past being head of your local neighbourhood watch if that. No one dares speak badly of our great friend in the ME.

there is no friendlier media to Israel than the American one

I know, if this is what counts as friendly media, can you imagine the news in Europe?
You don't think the American media is friendly to Israel? What planet do you live on? Or are you one of those permanently self pitying people with a massive persecution complex?

but some truths are just so ugly that they can only be sugar coated so much.

Apparently not. Alot of people support Hamas and Arafat etc.

I don't know what you were trying to imply. I was suggesting that Israel's brutality can only be sugar coated and overlooked by the US media and Gov. for so long. People around the world are repulsed by Israel's behavior, just as they were repulsed by that of the South Africans during apartheid, and yes, there is a lot of ground for comparison. Just ask any Israeli Arab AKA third class citizen holding an Israeli passport. I have.

 

[ThePresence]

Originally posted by: LilBlinbBlahIce

Originally posted by: ThePresence

Originally posted by: LilBlinbBlahIce
You may have been there for however long you were serving with the IDF, point is YOU ARE GOING TO BE BIASED. No one ever thinks their side is wrong. I am pretty sure Hamas does not consider itself a terrorist organization just as I am pretty sure people serving in the IDF consider themselves the good guys fighting for the right cause.

What does Hamas consider themselves, if not a terrorist organization? Freedom fighters? Blowing up kids on their way home from school? Freedom fighters? You have got to be kidding me. They know good and well that they are terrorists, but they think it's worth it to achieve their politcal ends.
That is your opinion. You have no way of knowing what they are thinking.

You may beleive protecting illegal settlements

I personally think the settelments are a bad idea, but I don't think that the penalty for living in a settelment should be violent death. So yes, I believe in protecting the lives of the people who live there.
I agree with you, the penalty should not be a violent death. Point is they are stealing land and putting themselves in a vunerable position on land that is not theirs, hence they are legitimate targets. They should not be there.

and shooting kids throwing stones at you is just,

That's a crock. Never happens. Don't believe what you read. If there is shooting, it is rubber bullets.
Rubber bullets kill too, especially a head shot to a little kid. If you can deny that you are a crock.

at the same time they might beleive that shooting at that settlement or dispaching a suicide bomber is also just,

No they don't. They just think it's worth it to achieve political ends.
Once again, that is your baseless opinion and you are completely entitled to it.

point is you're both wrong.

How so?
You are both wrong because violence begets violence. If you are trying to portray the IDF as a peace loving gentle but firm group of chaps you are not going to be convincing anyone. The only way a human can treat another human the way the IDF treats Palestinians is by dehuminizing them, just like the Nazis did. The only way a Pal suicide bomber can do what he does is by dehumnizing the enemy, just like the Nazis did. Hence, IMO, they are both wrong.

And for you to say that we are all media whores just because we were not sitting in the tank next to you is ridiculous

Well, I think most of what passes for news from that region is terribly skewed to reflect the political viewpoints of whatever network it may be.
You are right, skewed to the benefit of Israel. Try critisizing Israel here and you will be crucified as an Anti-Semite. In America, Israel is beyond reproach. Try being sympathetic to the Palestinians and run for office. You won't get past being head of your local neighbourhood watch if that. No one dares speak badly of our great friend in the ME.

there is no friendlier media to Israel than the American one

I know, if this is what counts as friendly media, can you imagine the news in Europe?
You don't think the American media is friendly to Israel? What planet do you live on? Or are you one of those permanently self pitying people with a massive persecution complex?

but some truths are just so ugly that they can only be sugar coated so much.

Apparently not. Alot of people support Hamas and Arafat etc.

I don't know what you were trying to imply. I was suggesting that Israel's brutality can only be sugar coated and overlooked by the US media and Gov. for so long. People around the world are repulsed by Israel's behavior, just as they were repulsed by that of the South Africans during apartheid, and yes, there is a lot of ground for comparison. Just ask any Israeli Arab AKA third class citizen holding an Israeli passport. I have.

I could go point for point again, and if you want I will, but what is the point? I believe what I believe because I've been there, seen it and lived it. You believe what you believe because thats what you are told. Well, I can't convince you, and you'll never convince me. So this is all pointless.

 

[Gaard]

And the Palestines believe what they believe because they've been there, seen it and lived it.

You're saying that your opinion is more valid than others here because you've been over there for a while, right? Does that mean that the Palestinians who've lived over there all their lives have an opinion that is more valid than yours?

 

[LilBlinbBlahIce]

Originally posted by: ThePresence

Originally posted by: LilBlinbBlahIce

Originally posted by: ThePresence

Originally posted by: LilBlinbBlahIce
You may have been there for however long you were serving with the IDF, point is YOU ARE GOING TO BE BIASED. No one ever thinks their side is wrong. I am pretty sure Hamas does not consider itself a terrorist organization just as I am pretty sure people serving in the IDF consider themselves the good guys fighting for the right cause.

What does Hamas consider themselves, if not a terrorist organization? Freedom fighters? Blowing up kids on their way home from school? Freedom fighters? You have got to be kidding me. They know good and well that they are terrorists, but they think it's worth it to achieve their politcal ends.
That is your opinion. You have no way of knowing what they are thinking.

You may beleive protecting illegal settlements

I personally think the settelments are a bad idea, but I don't think that the penalty for living in a settelment should be violent death. So yes, I believe in protecting the lives of the people who live there.
I agree with you, the penalty should not be a violent death. Point is they are stealing land and putting themselves in a vunerable position on land that is not theirs, hence they are legitimate targets. They should not be there.

and shooting kids throwing stones at you is just,

That's a crock. Never happens. Don't believe what you read. If there is shooting, it is rubber bullets.
Rubber bullets kill too, especially a head shot to a little kid. If you can deny that you are a crock.

at the same time they might beleive that shooting at that settlement or dispaching a suicide bomber is also just,

No they don't. They just think it's worth it to achieve political ends.
Once again, that is your baseless opinion and you are completely entitled to it.

point is you're both wrong.

How so?
You are both wrong because violence begets violence. If you are trying to portray the IDF as a peace loving gentle but firm group of chaps you are not going to be convincing anyone. The only way a human can treat another human the way the IDF treats Palestinians is by dehuminizing them, just like the Nazis did. The only way a Pal suicide bomber can do what he does is by dehumnizing the enemy, just like the Nazis did. Hence, IMO, they are both wrong.

And for you to say that we are all media whores just because we were not sitting in the tank next to you is ridiculous

Well, I think most of what passes for news from that region is terribly skewed to reflect the political viewpoints of whatever network it may be.
You are right, skewed to the benefit of Israel. Try critisizing Israel here and you will be crucified as an Anti-Semite. In America, Israel is beyond reproach. Try being sympathetic to the Palestinians and run for office. You won't get past being head of your local neighbourhood watch if that. No one dares speak badly of our great friend in the ME.

there is no friendlier media to Israel than the American one

I know, if this is what counts as friendly media, can you imagine the news in Europe?
You don't think the American media is friendly to Israel? What planet do you live on? Or are you one of those permanently self pitying people with a massive persecution complex?

but some truths are just so ugly that they can only be sugar coated so much.

Apparently not. Alot of people support Hamas and Arafat etc.

I don't know what you were trying to imply. I was suggesting that Israel's brutality can only be sugar coated and overlooked by the US media and Gov. for so long. People around the world are repulsed by Israel's behavior, just as they were repulsed by that of the South Africans during apartheid, and yes, there is a lot of ground for comparison. Just ask any Israeli Arab AKA third class citizen holding an Israeli passport. I have.

I could go point for point again, and if you want I will, but what is the point? I believe what I believe because I've been there, seen it and lived it. You believe what you believe because thats what you are told. Well, I can't convince you, and you'll never convince me. So this is all pointless.

My point of view does not only come from the media, I know many Palestinians who were forced to leave their homes either directly or indirectly as a result of Israeli action. I have heard their stories and I feel for them, something they don't get very often from Americans. But of course, I'm sure you would call them liars or something, you know, being that I was not in their houses when they were kicked out or didn't wait with them at a road block for hours so they could make some money to put food on their table. It's all perspective Presence, no one wants to aknowledge that their side is capable of any wrong and I'm not saying either side is blameless. Where I think you and I differ is that you cannot fathom Israel being wrong in any way. And I am curious to see how you would respond to some of the things I brought up. We're not here to change minds, just discuss.

 

[ThePresence]

Originally posted by: Gaard
And the Palestines believe what they believe because they've been there, seen it and lived it.

You're saying that your opinion is more valid than others here because you've been over there for a while, right? Does that mean that the Palestinians who've lived over there all their lives have an opinion that is more valid than yours?

My opinion is not more valid then anybody elses. We all have our very own opinions and viewpoints. I, however, believe what I believe because of what I've seen. That's the reason I think the way I do. I've had rocks thrown at me, I've been shot at. Does that make my opinion more valid? Of course not. But it certainly gives me a prespective that people who haven't been where I've been can't possible have. Of course, I don't expect a Palestinian that lives there to agree with me. He's been tought to hate Israelis from when he was a fetus.

 

[LilBlinbBlahIce]

Originally posted by: ThePresence

Originally posted by: Gaard
And the Palestines believe what they believe because they've been there, seen it and lived it.

You're saying that your opinion is more valid than others here because you've been over there for a while, right? Does that mean that the Palestinians who've lived over there all their lives have an opinion that is more valid than yours?

My opinion is not more valid then anybody elses. We all have our very own opinions and viewpoints. I, however, believe what I believe because of what I've seen. That's the reason I think the way I do. I've had rocks thrown at me, I've been shot at. Does that make my opinion more valid? Of course not. But it certainly gives me a prespective that people who haven't been where I've been can't possible have. Of course, I don't expect a Palestinian that lives there to agree with me. He's been tought to hate Israelis from when he was a fetus.

Maybe so, but did you ever stop and think why he was thought to hate Israelis? Did you ever think that his instruction may not necessarily have come from books but from living in some of the most pathetic conditions on this planet? Did you ever think it may be because he knows that while his father does not have enough water to grow crops some Israeli kid is having a great time at a water park? Could it be because he sees his land being taken away from him day after day as settlements expand? Could it be because someone in his family could have been collateral dammage during an Israeli "pinpoint" attack? Could it be because his family is separated every time a new road block comes up? No body hates someone for absolutely no reason. Propaganda may play a role but reality plays a much greater one.

 

[Gaard]

That's the 2nd time you've stated that the Palestinians have been taught to hate since they are babies. Is that the only reason why you dismiss the Palestinian viewpoint?

Surely, they aren't teaching the Israel children to hate the Palestinians. Do they only teach the children about the way the Palestinian children are taught to hate them?

 

[ThePresence]

My point of view does not only come from the media, I know many Palestinians who were forced to leave their homes either directly or indirectly as a result of Israeli action. I have heard their stories and I feel for them, something they don't get very often from Americans. But of course, I'm sure you would call them liars or something, you know, being that I was not in their houses when they were kicked out or didn't wait with them at a road block for hours so they could make some money to put food on their table. It's all perspective Presence, no one wants to aknowledge that their side is capable of any wrong and I'm not saying either side is blameless. Where I think you and I differ is that you cannot fathom Israel being wrong in any way. And I am curious to see how you would respond to some of the things I brought up. We're not here to change minds, just discuss.

Okay, fair enough.

That is your opinion. You have no way of knowing what they are thinking.

That's true, I don't know what they're thinking. But I'd like to know how a straight thinking guy can consider himself a soldier if all he does is go after defenseless women and children.

I agree with you, the penalty should not be a violent death. Point is they are stealing land and putting themselves in a vunerable position on land that is not theirs, hence they are legitimate targets. They should not be there.
Again, who's land are they stealing? Who's land was it? When did it become the Palestinians land? Who gave it to them? It was Turkish, then British.

Rubber bullets kill too, especially a head shot to a little kid. If you can deny that you are a crock.

Well, maybe they shouldn't try to throw rocks at armed troops on a mission. If they want to do that, it ain't gonna tickle. Not saying they should be killed, and they aren't. But these guys are not going to be carrying supersoakers. And maybe they shouldn't be bringing their five year old kid with them to violent demonstrations. They do, I've seen it. It makes for great press images.

Once again, that is your baseless opinion and you are completely entitled to it.

Again, please justify for me how they consider themselves in the right. They shoot men, women and children driving on the road. Infants in car seats.

You are both wrong because violence begets violence. If you are trying to portray the IDF as a peace loving gentle but firm group of chaps you are not going to be convincing anyone. The only way a human can treat another human the way the IDF treats Palestinians is by dehuminizing them, just like the Nazis did. The only way a Pal suicide bomber can do what he does is by dehumnizing the enemy, just like the Nazis did. Hence, IMO, they are both wrong.

No, they are not gentle. They're an army, they're not supposed to be gentle. They're supposed to kick ass. You're missing a big point. When the IDF goes in there, they are shot at, have rocks thrown at them, grendaes, etc. So of course they respond with force. They're soldiers. That's what soldiers do when they are attacked. If they dehumanize anyone, it's because they have to treat everyone like a suspected terrorist, because they terrorists themselves are Palestinian civillians. Is it fair to the innocent Palestinians? No. But the blame lies with the terrorists. They are the ones who bring it upon their own people.

You are right, skewed to the benefit of Israel. Try critisizing Israel here and you will be crucified as an Anti-Semite. In America, Israel is beyond reproach. Try being sympathetic to the Palestinians and run for office. You won't get past being head of your local neighbourhood watch if that. No one dares speak badly of our great friend in the ME.

Do you read the NY Times? Do you watch CNN? They are almost as bad as the BBC. So skewed to towards the Palestinians. And they are not the only ones.

You don't think the American media is friendly to Israel? What planet do you live on? Or are you one of those permanently self pitying people with a massive persecution complex?

See above.

I don't know what you were trying to imply. I was suggesting that Israel's brutality can only be sugar coated and overlooked by the US media and Gov. for so long. People around the world are repulsed by Israel's behavior, just as they were repulsed by that of the South Africans during apartheid, and yes, there is a lot of ground for comparison. Just ask any Israeli Arab AKA third class citizen holding an Israeli passport. I have.

ISRAEL'S brutality?! Is this a joke? Do you see Israelis intentionally blowing up busloads of children going to school? Or busloads of people coming from prayer? Or do you see them trying to kill the people that are murdering their innocent civillians? THAT'S what I'm implying.

 

[ThePresence]

Originally posted by: Gaard
That's the 2nd time you've stated that the Palestinians have been taught to hate since they are babies. Is that the only reason why you dismiss the Palestinian viewpoint?

I don't dismiss their viewpoint at all. I really do feel for the innocent Palestinians involved. But they have the terrorists to blame for it. Israel has to protect it's own citizens, and when the murderers are going around as Palestinian civillians, then the civillians are all being punished by the terrorists.

Surely, they aren't teaching the Israel children to hate the Palestinians. Do they only teach the children about the way the Palestinian children are taught to hate them?

No, they are not teching in Israeli schools to hate Palestinians. NOR DO THEY HAVE SUMMER CAMPS FOR CHILDREN THAT TEACH HOW TO MURDER INNOCENT PEOPLE.

 

[ThePresence]

Originally posted by: LilBlinbBlahIce

Originally posted by: ThePresence

Originally posted by: Gaard
And the Palestines believe what they believe because they've been there, seen it and lived it.

You're saying that your opinion is more valid than others here because you've been over there for a while, right? Does that mean that the Palestinians who've lived over there all their lives have an opinion that is more valid than yours?

My opinion is not more valid then anybody elses. We all have our very own opinions and viewpoints. I, however, believe what I believe because of what I've seen. That's the reason I think the way I do. I've had rocks thrown at me, I've been shot at. Does that make my opinion more valid? Of course not. But it certainly gives me a prespective that people who haven't been where I've been can't possible have. Of course, I don't expect a Palestinian that lives there to agree with me. He's been tought to hate Israelis from when he was a fetus.

Maybe so, but did you ever stop and think why he was thought to hate Israelis? Did you ever think that his instruction may not necessarily have come from books but from living in some of the most pathetic conditions on this planet? Did you ever think it may be because he knows that while his father does not have enough water to grow crops some Israeli kid is having a great time at a water park? Could it be because he sees his land being taken away from him day after day as settlements expand? Could it be because someone in his family could have been collateral dammage during an Israeli "pinpoint" attack? Could it be because his family is separated every time a new road block comes up? No body hates someone for absolutely no reason. Propaganda may play a role but reality plays a much greater one.

You're right. Nobody hates for no reason. I always wondered what the Iranians have against Israel. I also wonder why the Syrians, Egyptians and Jordains attacked Israel. When you tell me why they hate Israel, then you'll have your reason.

 

[LilBlinbBlahIce]

Originally posted by: ThePresence

Originally posted by: LilBlinbBlahIce

Originally posted by: ThePresence

Originally posted by: Gaard
And the Palestines believe what they believe because they've been there, seen it and lived it.

You're saying that your opinion is more valid than others here because you've been over there for a while, right? Does that mean that the Palestinians who've lived over there all their lives have an opinion that is more valid than yours?

My opinion is not more valid then anybody elses. We all have our very own opinions and viewpoints. I, however, believe what I believe because of what I've seen. That's the reason I think the way I do. I've had rocks thrown at me, I've been shot at. Does that make my opinion more valid? Of course not. But it certainly gives me a prespective that people who haven't been where I've been can't possible have. Of course, I don't expect a Palestinian that lives there to agree with me. He's been tought to hate Israelis from when he was a fetus.

Maybe so, but did you ever stop and think why he was thought to hate Israelis? Did you ever think that his instruction may not necessarily have come from books but from living in some of the most pathetic conditions on this planet? Did you ever think it may be because he knows that while his father does not have enough water to grow crops some Israeli kid is having a great time at a water park? Could it be because he sees his land being taken away from him day after day as settlements expand? Could it be because someone in his family could have been collateral dammage during an Israeli "pinpoint" attack? Could it be because his family is separated every time a new road block comes up? No body hates someone for absolutely no reason. Propaganda may play a role but reality plays a much greater one.

You're right. Nobody hates for no reason. I always wondered what the Iranians have against Israel. I also wonder why the Syrians, Egyptians and Jordains attacked Israel. When you tell me why they hate Israel, then you'll have your reason.

Don't move off topic, stick to the issues, dismiss what I've said and then we'll move on to third parties who use the Palestinian cause for their own twisted reasons. Let's stick with the Israelis and the Palestinians, they are the only two parties that matter.

 

[ThePresence]

Originally posted by: LilBlinbBlahIce

Originally posted by: ThePresence

Originally posted by: LilBlinbBlahIce

Originally posted by: ThePresence

Originally posted by: Gaard
And the Palestines believe what they believe because they've been there, seen it and lived it.

You're saying that your opinion is more valid than others here because you've been over there for a while, right? Does that mean that the Palestinians who've lived over there all their lives have an opinion that is more valid than yours?

My opinion is not more valid then anybody elses. We all have our very own opinions and viewpoints. I, however, believe what I believe because of what I've seen. That's the reason I think the way I do. I've had rocks thrown at me, I've been shot at. Does that make my opinion more valid? Of course not. But it certainly gives me a prespective that people who haven't been where I've been can't possible have. Of course, I don't expect a Palestinian that lives there to agree with me. He's been tought to hate Israelis from when he was a fetus.

Maybe so, but did you ever stop and think why he was thought to hate Israelis? Did you ever think that his instruction may not necessarily have come from books but from living in some of the most pathetic conditions on this planet? Did you ever think it may be because he knows that while his father does not have enough water to grow crops some Israeli kid is having a great time at a water park? Could it be because he sees his land being taken away from him day after day as settlements expand? Could it be because someone in his family could have been collateral dammage during an Israeli "pinpoint" attack? Could it be because his family is separated every time a new road block comes up? No body hates someone for absolutely no reason. Propaganda may play a role but reality plays a much greater one.

You're right. Nobody hates for no reason. I always wondered what the Iranians have against Israel. I also wonder why the Syrians, Egyptians and Jordains attacked Israel. When you tell me why they hate Israel, then you'll have your reason.

Don't move off topic, stick to the issues, dismiss what I've said and then we'll move on to third parties who use the Palestinian cause for their own twisted reasons. Let's stick with the Israelis and the Palestinians, they are the only two parties that matter.

Okay.They wanted the land Israel is now on for themselves. Not part of it, the whole thing. So they went to war. They lost. They're sore losers.
This is the short version without getting involved in the whole religious aspect.

 

[LilBlinbBlahIce]

Originally posted by: ThePresence

Originally posted by: LilBlinbBlahIce

Originally posted by: ThePresence

Originally posted by: LilBlinbBlahIce

Originally posted by: ThePresence

Originally posted by: Gaard
And the Palestines believe what they believe because they've been there, seen it and lived it.

You're saying that your opinion is more valid than others here because you've been over there for a while, right? Does that mean that the Palestinians who've lived over there all their lives have an opinion that is more valid than yours?

My opinion is not more valid then anybody elses. We all have our very own opinions and viewpoints. I, however, believe what I believe because of what I've seen. That's the reason I think the way I do. I've had rocks thrown at me, I've been shot at. Does that make my opinion more valid? Of course not. But it certainly gives me a prespective that people who haven't been where I've been can't possible have. Of course, I don't expect a Palestinian that lives there to agree with me. He's been tought to hate Israelis from when he was a fetus.

Maybe so, but did you ever stop and think why he was thought to hate Israelis? Did you ever think that his instruction may not necessarily have come from books but from living in some of the most pathetic conditions on this planet? Did you ever think it may be because he knows that while his father does not have enough water to grow crops some Israeli kid is having a great time at a water park? Could it be because he sees his land being taken away from him day after day as settlements expand? Could it be because someone in his family could have been collateral dammage during an Israeli "pinpoint" attack? Could it be because his family is separated every time a new road block comes up? No body hates someone for absolutely no reason. Propaganda may play a role but reality plays a much greater one.

You're right. Nobody hates for no reason. I always wondered what the Iranians have against Israel. I also wonder why the Syrians, Egyptians and Jordains attacked Israel. When you tell me why they hate Israel, then you'll have your reason.

Don't move off topic, stick to the issues, dismiss what I've said and then we'll move on to third parties who use the Palestinian cause for their own twisted reasons. Let's stick with the Israelis and the Palestinians, they are the only two parties that matter.

Okay.They wanted the land Israel is now on for themselves. Not part of it, the whole thing. So they went to war. They lost. They're sore losers.
This is the short version without getting involved in the whole religious aspect.

So your spiel is that every Palestinian wants all of Israel destroyed and they are willing to go on suffering till that is achieved with no blame whatsoever on the Israeli side. And us media whores are disillusioned?

 

[ThePresence]

Originally posted by: LilBlinbBlahIce

Originally posted by: ThePresence

Originally posted by: LilBlinbBlahIce

Originally posted by: ThePresence

Originally posted by: LilBlinbBlahIce

Originally posted by: ThePresence

Originally posted by: Gaard
And the Palestines believe what they believe because they've been there, seen it and lived it.

You're saying that your opinion is more valid than others here because you've been over there for a while, right? Does that mean that the Palestinians who've lived over there all their lives have an opinion that is more valid than yours?

My opinion is not more valid then anybody elses. We all have our very own opinions and viewpoints. I, however, believe what I believe because of what I've seen. That's the reason I think the way I do. I've had rocks thrown at me, I've been shot at. Does that make my opinion more valid? Of course not. But it certainly gives me a prespective that people who haven't been where I've been can't possible have. Of course, I don't expect a Palestinian that lives there to agree with me. He's been tought to hate Israelis from when he was a fetus.

Maybe so, but did you ever stop and think why he was thought to hate Israelis? Did you ever think that his instruction may not necessarily have come from books but from living in some of the most pathetic conditions on this planet? Did you ever think it may be because he knows that while his father does not have enough water to grow crops some Israeli kid is having a great time at a water park? Could it be because he sees his land being taken away from him day after day as settlements expand? Could it be because someone in his family could have been collateral dammage during an Israeli "pinpoint" attack? Could it be because his family is separated every time a new road block comes up? No body hates someone for absolutely no reason. Propaganda may play a role but reality plays a much greater one.

You're right. Nobody hates for no reason. I always wondered what the Iranians have against Israel. I also wonder why the Syrians, Egyptians and Jordains attacked Israel. When you tell me why they hate Israel, then you'll have your reason.

Don't move off topic, stick to the issues, dismiss what I've said and then we'll move on to third parties who use the Palestinian cause for their own twisted reasons. Let's stick with the Israelis and the Palestinians, they are the only two parties that matter.

Okay.They wanted the land Israel is now on for themselves. Not part of it, the whole thing. So they went to war. They lost. They're sore losers.
This is the short version without getting involved in the whole religious aspect.

So your spiel is that every Palestinian wants all of Israel destroyed and they are willing to go on suffering till that is achieved with no blame whatsoever on the Israeli side. And us media whores are disillusioned?

Well, I don't think every Palesinian is willing to go on suffering untill it's achieved. The terrorists are the ones who are willing to let everyone suffer untill they achive whatever it is their ambitions are. That's my SPIEL. I don't know what you mean about being disillusioned. Cheer up.

 

[LilBlinbBlahIce]

Originally posted by: ThePresence

Originally posted by: LilBlinbBlahIce

Originally posted by: ThePresence

Originally posted by: LilBlinbBlahIce

Originally posted by: ThePresence

Originally posted by: LilBlinbBlahIce

Originally posted by: ThePresence

Originally posted by: Gaard
And the Palestines believe what they believe because they've been there, seen it and lived it.

You're saying that your opinion is more valid than others here because you've been over there for a while, right? Does that mean that the Palestinians who've lived over there all their lives have an opinion that is more valid than yours?

My opinion is not more valid then anybody elses. We all have our very own opinions and viewpoints. I, however, believe what I believe because of what I've seen. That's the reason I think the way I do. I've had rocks thrown at me, I've been shot at. Does that make my opinion more valid? Of course not. But it certainly gives me a prespective that people who haven't been where I've been can't possible have. Of course, I don't expect a Palestinian that lives there to agree with me. He's been tought to hate Israelis from when he was a fetus.

Maybe so, but did you ever stop and think why he was thought to hate Israelis? Did you ever think that his instruction may not necessarily have come from books but from living in some of the most pathetic conditions on this planet? Did you ever think it may be because he knows that while his father does not have enough water to grow crops some Israeli kid is having a great time at a water park? Could it be because he sees his land being taken away from him day after day as settlements expand? Could it be because someone in his family could have been collateral dammage during an Israeli "pinpoint" attack? Could it be because his family is separated every time a new road block comes up? No body hates someone for absolutely no reason. Propaganda may play a role but reality plays a much greater one.

You're right. Nobody hates for no reason. I always wondered what the Iranians have against Israel. I also wonder why the Syrians, Egyptians and Jordains attacked Israel. When you tell me why they hate Israel, then you'll have your reason.

Don't move off topic, stick to the issues, dismiss what I've said and then we'll move on to third parties who use the Palestinian cause for their own twisted reasons. Let's stick with the Israelis and the Palestinians, they are the only two parties that matter.

Okay.They wanted the land Israel is now on for themselves. Not part of it, the whole thing. So they went to war. They lost. They're sore losers.
This is the short version without getting involved in the whole religious aspect.

So your spiel is that every Palestinian wants all of Israel destroyed and they are willing to go on suffering till that is achieved with no blame whatsoever on the Israeli side. And us media whores are disillusioned?

Well, I don't think every Palesinian is willing to go on suffering untill it's achieved. The terrorists are the ones who are willing to let everyone suffer untill they achive whatever it is their ambitions are. That's my SPIEL. I don't know what you mean about being disillusioned. Cheer up.

They may not be willing to go on suffering, but do you think that they ALL want Israel gone? And once again, you have skirted all the issues I brought up. If you don't feel like taking about this, just say so.

 

[ThePresence]

Originally posted by: LilBlinbBlahIce
They may not be willing to go on suffering, but do you think that they ALL want Israel gone? And once again, you have skirted all the issues I brought up. If you don't feel like taking about this, just say so.

Yes, I think all the terrorists want Israel wiped off the face of the map. I don't believe I skirted any issues. Please tell me which ones I didn't address, and I'll be glad to tell you my viewpoint on them.

 

[LilBlinbBlahIce]

Originally posted by: ThePresence

Originally posted by: LilBlinbBlahIce
They may not be willing to go on suffering, but do you think that they ALL want Israel gone? And once again, you have skirted all the issues I brought up. If you don't feel like taking about this, just say so.

Yes, I think all the terrorists want Israel wiped off the face of the map. I don't believe I skirted any issues. Please tell me which ones I didn't address, and I'll be glad to tell you my viewpoint on them.

So now you are calling all Palestinians terrorists? Read my posts, I've brought up everything from settlements to indiscriminate shooting of rubber bullets that CAN and DO kill people. You've not responded to a thing.

 

[ThePresence]

Originally posted by: LilBlinbBlahIce

Originally posted by: ThePresence

Originally posted by: LilBlinbBlahIce
They may not be willing to go on suffering, but do you think that they ALL want Israel gone? And once again, you have skirted all the issues I brought up. If you don't feel like taking about this, just say so.

Yes, I think all the terrorists want Israel wiped off the face of the map. I don't believe I skirted any issues. Please tell me which ones I didn't address, and I'll be glad to tell you my viewpoint on them.

So now you are calling all Palestinians terrorists? Read my posts, I've brought up everything from settlements to indiscriminate shooting of rubber bullets that CAN and DO kill people. You've not responded to a thing.

I explicitely showed a difference between innocent Palestinians and terrorists. I've responded to every point you brought up. Scroll up.

 

[syzygy]

I explicitely showed a difference between innocent Palestinians and terrorists. I've responded to every point you brought up. Scroll up.

exactly. but if the other side admits this they undermine their own political allegiences. the 'palestinian cause' has suffered from being made a
pawn of leftist ideologues who will go to spectacular ends to justify terrorism ! ! leftists mouth 'are these people really terrorrists if they are fighting
their oppressors ?' as if the palestinian people don't have non-violent routes to address their grievances. palestinian psychos like arafat have made
a career of confusing right principle with violence, and today you see his sympathisers making the same mistake.

 

[LilBlinbBlahIce]

Originally posted by: syzygy

I explicitely showed a difference between innocent Palestinians and terrorists. I've responded to every point you brought up. Scroll up.

exactly. but if the other side admits this they undermine their own political allegiences. the 'palestinian cause' has suffered from being made a
pawn of leftist ideologues who will go to spectacular ends to justify terrorism ! ! leftists mouth 'are these people really terrorrists if they are fighting
their oppressors ?' as if the palestinian people don't have non-violent routes to address their grievances. palestinian psychos like arafat have made
a career of confusing right principle with violence, and today you see his sympathisers making the same mistake.

Non violent means such as what? Sitting on their hands while illegal Israeli settlements keep encroaching on their land with the hope that maybe the US will step up and do something to moderate Israeli behavior? Wishful thinking, the US will never be an "honest broker" i this mess. Until Israel keeps stealing Palestinian land and treating common people worse than animals, there will always be violence. No one is going to be humiliated on a daily basis without eventually striking back, why do you do think it is so easy for terrorist groups to recruit people? Because their lives are crap and they feel like they have nothing left to loose, so if they can make the enemy feel their pain, why not? Its not a justification, its an explanation.

 

[DBL]

Originally posted by: LilBlinbBlahIce

Non violent means such as what? Sitting on their hands while illegal Israeli settlements keep encroaching on their land with the hope that maybe the US will step up and do something to moderate Israeli behavior? Wishful thinking, the US will never be an "honest broker" i this mess. Until Israel keeps stealing Palestinian land and treating common people worse than animals, there will always be violence. No one is going to be humiliated on a daily basis without eventually striking back, why do you do think it is so easy for terrorist groups to recruit people? Because their lives are crap and they feel like they have nothing left to loose, so if they can make the enemy feel their pain, why not? Its not a justification, its an explanation.

Well, "sitting on their hands" as you put it would certainly be a lot more productive in advancing the Palestinian cause. Constant terrorist attacks do little to endear you to the very country you are trying to negotiate with. These settlers and the expanding settlements are on the fringe of Israeli society. The great majority of Israeli's do not support expanding these settlements. That being said, most Israelite?s are smart enough to realize that these settlers and their settlements provide a sort of security buffer, helping to protect the rest of Israeli society from terrorists. The settlers, usually citing some sort of religious duty, are more than happy to oblige. Until terrorists attacks cease, you will not see the popular support needed to dismantle the settlements. Essentially, you fail to realize that the expanding settlements are a function of Israel?s perceived vulnerability. Get rid of the terrorism and Israel will be forced to dismantle the settlements.

 

[LilBlinbBlahIce]

Originally posted by: DBL

Originally posted by: LilBlinbBlahIce

Non violent means such as what? Sitting on their hands while illegal Israeli settlements keep encroaching on their land with the hope that maybe the US will step up and do something to moderate Israeli behavior? Wishful thinking, the US will never be an "honest broker" i this mess. Until Israel keeps stealing Palestinian land and treating common people worse than animals, there will always be violence. No one is going to be humiliated on a daily basis without eventually striking back, why do you do think it is so easy for terrorist groups to recruit people? Because their lives are crap and they feel like they have nothing left to loose, so if they can make the enemy feel their pain, why not? Its not a justification, its an explanation.

Well, "sitting on their hands" as you put it would certainly be a lot more productive in advancing the Palestinian cause. Constant terrorist attacks do little to endear you to the very country you are trying to negotiate with. These settlers and the expanding settlements are on the fringe of Israeli society. The great majority of Israeli's do not support expanding these settlements. That being said, most Israelite?s are smart enough to realize that these settlers and their settlements provide a sort of security buffer, helping to protect the rest of Israeli society from terrorists. The settlers, usually citing some sort of religious duty, are more than happy to oblige. Until terrorists attacks cease, you will not see the popular support needed to dismantle the settlements. Essentially, you fail to realize that the expanding settlements are a function of Israel?s perceived vulnerability. Get rid of the terrorism and Israel will be forced to dismantle the settlements.

I disagree, there are over a 1/4 million settlers, hardly a fringe, and besides, where would they go if Israel were to dismantle the settlements? Who would pay for their relocation? Us? Frankly I'm sick of having my country pay Israel's bills. The settlers are an extreamly powerful lobby in Israel, if the Palestinians sat on their hands all that would happen is less money would be spent by the Israeli gov. on protecting the settlers and more money would be available for their expansion.

 

[DBL]

Originally posted by: LilBlinbBlahIce

I disagree, there are over a 1/4 million settlers, hardly a fringe, and besides, where would they go if Israel were to dismantle the settlements? Who would pay for their relocation? Us? Frankly I'm sick of having my country pay Israel's bills. The settlers are an extreamly powerful lobby in Israel, if the Palestinians sat on their hands all that would happen is less money would be spent by the Israeli gov. on protecting the settlers and more money would be available for their expansion.

Well I'm going to have to disagree. Raw numbers don't really mean a whole lot when you don't put them in perspective. I've seen information, which says the settlers make up 3% of the Israeli population of 6.5million. That's 195,000 settlers. In any case, whether it's 195k or 250k, it doesn't really matter but consider that Israeli Arabs account for more than 20% of the Israeli population. That means there are 7 Israeli Arabs for every settler. Also consider that a huge amount of settler families are comprised of many children who have no choice in living location. When you put all this in PERSPECTIVE, it's pretty clear that the settlers (those able to choose to live in the West Bank and Gaza) are indeed a very small minority in Israel.

While Settlers chose to vote in high proportions to their relative size, they control no more than 10% of the Knesset. This is hardly the force you seem to want to portray it as. That being said, continued terrorist attacks by Palestinians will all but guarantee that the settlers and their representatives gain more support in a society constantly living in fear of terrorism. Every country including ours leans towards the Right when citizens perceive themselves under attack. It's the same reason the Bush administration received such broad support from the general population after 9/11.

 

[LilBlinbBlahIce]

Originally posted by: DBL

Originally posted by: LilBlinbBlahIce

I disagree, there are over a 1/4 million settlers, hardly a fringe, and besides, where would they go if Israel were to dismantle the settlements? Who would pay for their relocation? Us? Frankly I'm sick of having my country pay Israel's bills. The settlers are an extreamly powerful lobby in Israel, if the Palestinians sat on their hands all that would happen is less money would be spent by the Israeli gov. on protecting the settlers and more money would be available for their expansion.

Well I'm going to have to disagree. Raw numbers don't really mean a whole lot when you don't put them in perspective. I've seen information, which says the settlers make up 3% of the Israeli population of 6.5million. That's 195,000 settlers. In any case, whether it's 195k or 250k, it doesn't really matter but consider that Israeli Arabs account for more than 20% of the Israeli population. That means there are 7 Israeli Arabs for every settler. Also consider that a huge amount of settler families are comprised of many children who have no choice in living location. When you put all this in PERSPECTIVE, it's pretty clear that the settlers (those able to choose to live in the West Bank and Gaza) are indeed a very small minority in Israel.

While Settlers chose to vote in high proportions to their relative size, they control no more than 10% of the Knesset. This is hardly the force you seem to want to portray it as. That being said, continued terrorist attacks by Palestinians will all but guarantee that the settlers and their representatives gain more support in a society constantly living in fear of terrorism. Every country including ours leans towards the Right when citizens perceive themselves under attack. It's the same reason the Bush administration received such broad support from the general population after 9/11.

Numbers aside, you didn't address the main point I wanted to bring up, what do you do with the settlers? The majority of them are fundamentalist Jews who would refuse to move based on their perception that their right to live there is mandated by God. How do you address a problem with such variables? Furthermore, the settlements engulf prime land and the walls used to protect them not only cut of many Palestinians from their land, but end up creating cantons that invariably imprison and isolate some Palestinians from the rest of their community. I beleive that the settlements are a major cause of the bad blood between the two, and neither the Israeli or US gov seem serious about addressing the issue, hell half the settlements are build using money we give in aid.

 

[ThePresence]

Never Mind.