Palestinian jailed for rape after claiming to be Jewish

[kylebisme]

I said nothing to imply anything of the sort.

 

[PeshakJang]

And their 'terrible legal systems' are intertwined with the Muslim religion and a reflection on Muslim society. You're a liar, and further make a fool of yourself. We're done. You lose.

You've already admitted you were wrong once... backpedaling won't get you anywhere.

Take your ball somewhere else. You lost. Get over it.

 

[jman19]

This conviction is absurd.

 

[MotF Bane]

You've already admitted you were wrong once... backpedaling won't get you anywhere.

Take your ball somewhere else. You lost. Get over it.

It's Craig. View him as the thread jester.

 

[her209]

Since when do the laws in surrounding countries provide justification for bigoted laws and behavior in a particular country?

When it fits your agenda.

 

[theeedude]

Why are we supporting this state?

 

[Turin39789]

It's Craig. View him as the thread jester.

So Craig is the jester in this thread when PJ's response to what appears to be an obviously idiotic law isn't to condemn it or even discuss it, but to make the injustice appear insignificant by comparing it to others?

That's who you are supporting?

 

[woolfe9999]

I wouldn't defend this conviction or the ruling of this judge. It's totally ludicrous. However, I would point out that we are, once again, seeing the usual over-generalizing from the anti-Israel crowd. This is one incident, one court, unprecedented in Israeli history, a short jail sentence which may get overturned on appeal. It's quite easy to find irrational and stupid verdicts in every justice system. We have them all the time in the U.S. I would also point out that the Israeli law, as written, is race neutral - it is just a statute that criminalizes using deception to get sex, and by the way similar laws exist in other countries. The trouble here is just the way this particular Israeli judge applied this law. Maybe this particular judge is a racist, or an idiot, or both. That is all. Generalizations about the "racist state of Israel" are, as usual, overreaching and totally nonsensical.

- wolf

 

[Patranus]

Hey, if a 17 year chick uses a fake id to get into a +21 bar and you (assuming you are over 21 also) hooks up with that chick you got to jail based on her lie.

 

[MotF Bane]

Hey, if a 17 year chick uses a fake id to get into a +21 bar and you (assuming you are over 21 also) hooks up with that chick you got to jail based on her lie.

Why are we supporting this state?

Hmmm...

 

[her209]

Hey, if a 17 year chick uses a fake id to get into a +21 bar and you (assuming you are over 21 also) hooks up with that chick you got to jail based on her lie.

Having sex with an underaged minor is always illegal even if she lies about her age; similarly, having sex with a Palestinian man is always illegal even if he lies about his ethnicity.

 

[Kappo]

Actually, his argument is more along the lines of "over in Africa they [something they don't actually do], so there is nothing wrong with treating black people like shit in the US."

Your argument seems to be "The people who are intolerant need to be tolerated so that they will tolerate those things which they won't tolerate" (lol). Hate to be the bearer of bad tidings, but they won't just magically start doing what you want because you were nice to them.

 

[Narmer]

Syria? And yes, women have been executed for being raped. Pay attention.



You are obviously the one excusing it. We've proven that, you have done nothing but dodge questions. Tell me why so many experts agree with our claims, yet you can't answer one simple question.

I think you're wrong. Tradition =! laws on the book. A lot of those stonings are carried out by angry villagers and families seeking to restore "honor". In Israel, they've legalized bigotry. But all these people are the same and deserve each other.

 

[kylebisme]

This is one incident, one court, unprecedented in Israeli history, a short jail sentence which may get overturned on appeal.

This is one incident which is yet another example of all the bigotry which goes down in Israel, and 18 months in jail over lying for sex isn't short, it's some serious playa hatin'.

I would also point out that the Israeli law, as written, is race neutral - it is just a statute that criminalizes using deception to get sex, and by the way similar laws exist in other countries.

Can you quote the law and name even just other countries you are claiming have such a law? Can you name even one Jew who has been convicted over lying for sex in Israel? Best I can tell at this point, you're FOS.

Your argument seems to be...

No, you're just obviously too much of a bigot to understand my argument.

 

[ayabe]

The ultra-orthodox are even trying to disenfranchise other jewish sects so this stuff really isn't surprising.

Yet time and time again we have to hear about how Israel is just like us and our BFF's in the ME who we must protect at all times. Wrong, they are not like us, they are a theocratic democracy and despite certain religious extremists in this country who would love to emulate Israel in that regard, thankfully most of us realize that is a lose-lose for everyone.

 

[bfdd]

The problem every single one of you has is trying to justify or demonize this action due to things that happened in other countries. Hint, Israel is their own nation and they have different laws, culture, etc.

 

[Kappo]

No, you're just obviously too much of a bigot to understand my argument.

Yeah, IM the bigot. You are the one that endorses THESE teachings. These are the things you want ME to tolerate.


From the Quran :

10. A husband has sex with his wife, as a plow goes into a field.

The Quran in Sura (Chapter) 2:223 says:

Your women are your fields, so go into your fields whichever way you like . . . . (MAS Abdel Haleem, The Qur’an, Oxford UP, 2004)

9. Husbands are a degree above their wives.

The Quran in Sura 2:228 says:

. . . Wives have the same rights as the husbands have on them in accordance with the generally known principles. Of course, men are a degree above them in status . . . (Sayyid Abul A’La Maududi, The Meaning of the Qur’an, vol. 1, p. 165)

8. A male gets a double share of the inheritance over that of a female.

The Quran in Sura 4:11 says:

The share of the male shall be twice that of a female . . . . (Maududi, vol. 1, p. 311)

7. A woman’s testimony counts half of a man’s testimony.

The Quran in Sura 2:282 says:

And let two men from among you bear witness to all such documents [contracts of loans without interest]. But if two men be not available, there should be one man and two women to bear witness so that if one of the women forgets (anything), the other may remind her. (Maududi, vol. 1, p. 205).

6. A wife may remarry her ex—husband if and only if she marries another man and then this second man divorces her.

The Quran in Sura 2:230 says:

And if the husband divorces his wife (for the third time), she shall not remain his lawful wife after this (absolute) divorce, unless she marries another husband and the second husband divorces her. [In that case] there is no harm if they [the first couple] remarry . . . . (Maududi, vol. 1, p. 165)

5. Slave—girls are sexual property for their male owners.

The Quran in Sura 4:24 says:

And forbidden to you are wedded wives of other people except those who have fallen in your hands [as prisoners of war] . . . (Maududi, vol. 1, p. 319).

4. A man may be polygamous with up to four wives.

The Quran in Sura 4:3 says:

And if you be apprehensive that you will not be able to do justice to the orphans, you may marry two or three or four women whom you choose. But if you apprehend that you might not be able to do justice to them, then marry only one wife, or marry those who have fallen in your possession. (Maududi, vol. 1, p. 305)

3. A husband may simply get rid of one of his undesirable wives.

The Quran in Sura 4:129 says:

It is not within your power to be perfectly equitable in your treatment with all your wives, even if you wish to be so; therefore, [in order to satisfy the dictates of Divine Law] do not lean towards one wife so as to leave the other in a state of suspense. (Maududi, vol. 1, p. 381)

2. Husbands may hit their wives even if the husbands merely fear highhandedness in their wives (quite apart from whether they actually are highhanded).

The Quran in Sura 4:34 says:

4:34 . . . If you fear highhandedness from your wives, remind them [of the teaching of God], then ignore them when you go to bed, then hit them. If they obey you, you have no right to act against them. God is most high and great. (Haleem, emphasis added)

1. Mature men are allowed to marry prepubescent girls.

The Quran in Sura 65:1, 4 says:

65:1 O Prophet, when you [and the believers] divorce women, divorce them for their prescribed waiting—period and count the waiting—period accurately . . . 4 And if you are in doubt about those of your women who have despaired of menstruation, (you should know that) their waiting period is three months, and the same applies to those who have not menstruated as yet. As for pregnant women, their period ends when they have delivered their burden. (Maududi, vol. 5, pp. 599 and 617, emphasis added)

 

[QuantumPion]

When I first read the title of this thread, I read it as:

"Palestinian [woman] jailed for [being raped] after claiming to be Jewish"

which makes much more sense and is far more plausible than the supposed actual news story.

 

[woolfe9999]

This is one incident which is yet another example of all the bigotry which goes down in Israel, and 18 months in jail over lying for sex isn't short, it's some serious playa hatin'.


Can you quote the law and name even just other countries you are claiming have such a law? Can you name even one Jew who has been convicted over lying for sex in Israel? Best I can tell at this point, you're FOS.

Hmm, let's see. I was under the impression that many countries and states had rape-fraud statutes, which is exactly what the Israeli law is. What are the chances we have one in my home state of California? [Leafs through the Penal Code]

California Penal Code section 261:

(a) Rape is an act of sexual intercourse accomplished with a person not the spouse of the perpetrator, under any of the following circumstances:

(C) [Where the victim] was not aware, knowing, perceiving, or cognizant of the essential characteristic of the act due to the perpetrator's fraud in fact.

(Emphasis added.)

Notice that the California law, like all rape-fraud statutes, is broadly worded. It is therefore for the Courts to determine the actual scope of its application. Case annotations for this statute indicate that California courts have only applied it in two types of situations: 1) where the perpetrator poses as the victim's spouse, or 2) where the perpetrator falsely claims that the sex has a professional purpose (this has to do with notorious cases of so-called "sex therapists" having sex with their patients by telling them that it is therapeutically necessary.)

Now with this context in mind, why don't you go back and re-read the article in the OP and see what the real controversy is here. It has nothing to do with the Israeli law. I don't have the text, but I'd wager any amount of money that it's a broadly worded rape-fraud statute that you'll find in almost any legal system. The controversy is not the Israeli law, but rather, the way that particular judge applied the law, because it has never before, in any legal system, been applied to "racial deception." If the law itself actually precluded "racial deception," then the criticism would be of the statute rather than the judge, because the judge would have been simply following the statute. Note also that the article lists examples of people in other countries who were prosecuted under rape fraud laws for racial deception and acquitted, meaning that such laws exist but they are not applied the way this particular Israeli judge applied them.

I stand behind what I said. This was the action of a single Israeli judge, and you are, quite on queue, making it a broad issue of "racist Israel."

Can you name even one Jew who has been convicted over lying for sex in Israel?

This question is a staw man, since I never said there were any other cases. However, it turns out there have been:

The most notable case was in 2008, when Israel's high court of justice upheld the conviction of Zvi Sleiman, a man who impersonated a housing ministry official and promised women apartments and benefits in exchange for sex.

The case at hand is the first time it has ever been applied for "racial deception," but not the first time anyone has been convicted of rape by fraud in Israel.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2010/07/201072191017847251.html

- wolf

 

[Patranus]

Having sex with an underaged minor is always illegal even if she lies about her age; similarly, having sex with a Palestinian man is always illegal even if he lies about his ethnicity.

Both are based on the same type of lie.

 

[kylebisme]

Case annotations for this statute indicate that California courts have only applied it in two types of situations: 1) where the perpetrator poses as the victim's spouse, or 2) where the perpetrator falsely claims that the sex has a professional purpose (this has to do with notorious cases of so-called "sex therapists" having sex with their patients by telling them that it is therapeutically necessary.)

Yeah, which is completely different than a guy lying about his name to misrepresent his ethnicity.

This was the action of a single Israeli judge, and you are, quite on queue, making it a broad issue of "racist Israel."

Rather, it the action of the Judge, the woman, and her lawyer(s), and conceivably other people involved in bringing the case to court, and it's one of many examples of the extreme bigotry in Israel, among other notable recent examples here.

 

[Kirby]

Yeah, he is your neighbor, but his property isn't neighboring yours.

lol, so i guess the people living two doors down or across the street aren't my neighbors.

 

[kylebisme]

Rather, "neighboring" is a verb which which has a more specific connotation than the noun "neighbor."

 

[woolfe9999]

Yeah, which is completely different than a guy lying about his name to misrepresent his ethnicity.


Rather, it the action of the Judge, the woman, and her lawyer(s), and conceivably other people involved in bringing the case to court, and it's one of many examples of the extreme bigotry in Israel, among other notable recent examples here.

Anecdotal examples of racism rarely suffice to prove anything. They do, however, make for good propaganda when picked up by the news wires.

Allow me to provide a contrasting example of how information from a legal system can prove systemic racism. There was a controversy over the death penalty being applied in a racially biased manner in the U.S. south, which came to a head in several court cases. Opponents of the death penalty brought forward a study of 1000+ cases which showed that where the defendant was black and the victim white, the death penalty rates were substantially higher than the white/white, black/black or white/black categories. That is actual scientific data with a sample size that shows a systemic bias.

No anecdote nor clutch of anecdotes proves much of anything.

Incidentally, I found the Israel rape-fraud statute, and it is, exactly as I said, racially neutral:

Code Paragraph 345(a)(2) that defines rape:
הבועל אשה –
בהסכמת האשה, שהושגה במרמה לגבי מיהות העושה או מהות המעשה;
“A male who has sex with a woman with her consent, which was elicited with deceit about the essence of the perpetrator or essence of the act”.

In substance, it isn't terribly different from the California statute i cited above.

- wolf

 

[QuantumPion]

Anecdotal examples of racism rarely suffice to prove anything. They do, however, make for good propaganda when picked up by the news wires.

Allow me to provide a contrasting example of how information from a legal system can prove systemic racism. There was a controversy over the death penalty being applied in a racially biased manner in the U.S. south, which came to a head in several court cases. Opponents of the death penalty brought forward a study of 1000+ cases which showed that where the defendant was black and the victim white, the death penalty rates were substantially higher than the white/white, black/black or white/black categories. That is actual scientific data with a sample size that shows a systemic bias.

No anecdote nor clutch of anecdotes proves much of anything.

Incidentally, I found the Israel rape-fraud statute, and it is, exactly as I said, racially neutral:

Code Paragraph 345(a)(2) that defines rape:
הבועל אשה –
בהסכמת האשה, שהושגה במרמה לגבי מיהות העושה או מהות המעשה;
“A male who has sex with a woman with her consent, which was elicited with deceit about the essence of the perpetrator or essence of the act”.

In substance, it isn't terribly different from the California statute i cited above.

- wolf

Pfft, you and your "facts" and "logic". ^_^