Palestine on the map

[Freshgeardude]

So if someone walks into your house and decides to divide it up between him and his friend, leaving you to live in the basement on your own, you would say yes?

first of all, jews lived in israel before 1948. they didnt all just appear at once.


Jews have had presence in israel for over 2000 years.


Israel accepted LESS land than the arabs were going to get, obvious its after the Holocaust, they wanted anything.



so in fact, it is was Israel who accepted the basement, while the neighbors wanted the basement on top of the rest of their house. israel on the other hand defended its basement and took space in the house as a buffer, which today has become areas jews live in

 

[Freshgeardude]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ok Non Prof John, I will bite, we can make a distinction based on that. There were Arabs from other nations who attacked Israel in 1948, and indigenous Arabs and Jews who had land and property rights legitimacy granted to them by the former British mandate.

Israel was at that crossroads in 1948, it could have been the good guys by taking the high road by granting equal rights to all indigenous Jews and Arabs, or chosen to take the low road by granting rights to only Jews.

It still boils down to the same low road thievery by Israel no matter how you cut it.

As for the Arab states who then expelled their Jews, that in no way was the fault of the indigenous Arabs.

After arabs attacked a brand new nation of holocaust survivors, why would israel grant those trying to deny freedom to jews equal rights to those who fought for their freedom?

did the united states allow the leaders of the South keep their positions, jobs, freedoms, after the end of the civil war?

No, they didnt, they stood trial, went to jail.

 

[Lemon law]

Freshgeardude has the wrong answer for "did the united states allow the leaders of the South keep their positions, jobs, freedoms, after the end of the civil war?"

A very limited number of Southern leaders paid the Jefferson Davis forfeit, but many confederate generals were instead granted their freedom back. Robert E. Lee for one.
As for countless confederate soldiers, they were even given mules so they could resume their lives as farmers. And they went back to their own land they owned before and that land was not confiscated by the victorious Union forces.

That US history is almost 99.9 % different from Israeli post 1948 behavior as they expelled all Palestinians and nearly all Arabs, not on the basis of behavior but on the basis of racial heritage and religion.

 

[Corn]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ok Non Prof John, I will bite, we can make a distinction based on that. There were Arabs from other nations who attacked Israel in 1948, and indigenous Arabs and Jews who had land and property rights legitimacy granted to them by the former British mandate.

Israel was at that crossroads in 1948, it could have been the good guys by taking the high road by granting equal rights to all indigenous Jews and Arabs, or chosen to take the low road by granting rights to only Jews.

It still boils down to the same low road thievery by Israel no matter how you cut it.

As for the Arab states who then expelled their Jews, that in no way was the fault of the indigenous Arabs.

Before you demand Israel give back what you claim was stolen from the indigenous people, how about you first give back your home and wealth that was stolen from the indigenous Indians. Until then, you are merely a hypocrite asking others to do what you will not.

 

[SamurAchzar]

Israel was at that crossroads in 1948, it could have been the good guys by taking the high road by granting equal rights to all indigenous Jews and Arabs, or chosen to take the low road by granting rights to only Jews.

Now now, is this a lesson in couch morality or what. Taking the high road with gangs that massacre defenseless Jews, on ethnic basis? Arabs weren't even that big of Muslims those day (unlike now), they were just racist. No wonder Mufti of Jerusalem cut a deal with Hitler.

 

[Lemon law]

Sammy, I have no problem with saying the following.

1. Because some Arabs are evil does not mean all Arabs are evil.

2. Because some Jews are evil does not mean all Jews are evil.

But Israeli fan clubbers want to cherry pick and not see their own part of the guilt. It no longer works that way, especially in a post 1946 UN world that says gaining land by conquest is illegitimate.

 

[peonyu]

It doesnt matter anyway. The Palestinian birth rate is the highest in the world and thier population is doubling every 14 years, and has been doing that since the 50's. The Arab population inside Israel isnt far behind the Palestinian one and thier doubling roughly every 20 years...The Jewish population is basically stagnant and isnt growing since they dont have litters of children and immigration from Russia has slowed down. By 2020 or so the majority of 1-15 year olds will be Arab-Israelis and its a given they will vote only for Arabs when thier old enough.

Like that quote from Braveheart goes, if you cant get them out then breed them out.

 

[JS80]

Repeat after me. There is no such thing as a palestinian. There is no such thing as a palestinian. There is no such thing as a palestinian. There is no such thing as a palestinian. There is no such thing as a palestinian. There is no such thing as a palestinian. There is no such thing as a palestinian.

 

[Descartes]

There's something odd about citizens of one country arguing about how people of another country/territory should identify themselves. What history should teach us is that it doesn't really matter whether you think Palestine does or should exist, it only matters if people's minds behold it. As long as they do, they'll want some degree of sovereignty and sanctity, and there's not much that will change that.

This is true for:

1) Kashmir
2) The issues surrounding the Pakistan/India partition in the 40s
3) Sri Lanka
4) China/Taiwan (probably less so)
5) Chechnya/Russia
6) Andhra Pradesh/Telangana
7) Texas/US (ok that's a joke... or is it?)

I'll admit that I don't know anyone that identifies themselves as Palestinian, so my argument might be for naught; however, I know plenty of Kashmiris, Tamil Nadus and Sri Lankans that fight over the issue. The Andhra Pradesh vs. Telangana issue is becoming much more pronounced, for example, with most Andhrans holding the position that Telangana isn't a separate people, but try telling them that.

 

[SamurAchzar]

It doesnt matter anyway. The Palestinian birth rate is the highest in the world and thier population is doubling every 14 years, and has been doing that since the 50's. The Arab population inside Israel isnt far behind the Palestinian one and thier doubling roughly every 20 years...The Jewish population is basically stagnant and isnt growing since they dont have litters of children and immigration from Russia has slowed down. By 2020 or so the majority of 1-15 year olds will be Arab-Israelis and its a given they will vote only for Arabs when thier old enough.

Like that quote from Braveheart goes, if you cant get them out then breed them out.

The population growth for Arab-Israeli is coming down in recent years. Domestically, Israel faces a graver demographic problem from the Hassidic Jews than the Israeli-Arabs.

By the way, most of the peace plans in recent years call for large area exchanges with the would-be Palestinian state, in which they will receive to their control large contiguous areas occupied with Israeli-Arabs in return for areas with settlements. The Israeli-Arabs involved are already up in arms about it, despite many of them identifying themselves as Palestinians. They probably would rather live under Jews than under fellow Arabs (not that I can blame them, all considered).

Overall there is no real danger to the Jewish majority in Israel. However there is a big problem about who will be these Jews, but that's for another thread.

 

[SandEagle]

There's so such thing as "Palestine." No such thing as palestinian. They are the arabs no arab country wants living in Israel by the Jews' good grace.

To all the morons who say Palestine never existed:

http://www.rys2sense.com/anti-neocons/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=7971&start=0

that means you

 

[irishScott]

Israelis need to stop building settlements. I mean 100% halt. Leave the equipment on the sites frozen in place.

The Palestinians need to stop terrorizing and making ridiculous demands that they know will never be met; which they then use as justification for more terrorizing.


Only when these two things happen simultaneously and are maintained will a peace agreement be possible. However, for the moment it appears that we're simply escalating to a point where Israel will come down on the Palestinians. Hard. And the world will do nothing. Obama will actually be partly responsible, having strained relations with Israel to the point where the political leverage to stop the violence will no longer be there when we actually need it.

So as Bush preemptively attacked Iraq to neutralize a minor threat, financially and militarily straining us in the process; so Obama has now preemptively wasted our political sway with Israel, leaving us unable to counter the next round of violence; whether that be with Iran, Palestine, or other ME nation(s).

In short, the US now has next to no say in what Israel will do; and militarily sweeping Israel Iraq style would be impossible, even if it were an otherwise serious option (which it isn't).

Incompetence followed by politically motivated Naivete is not a good combination.

 

[Throckmorton]

That is all that needs to be said. If the Palestinians cannot defeat Israel in combat, then they don't deserve the land. This is the way of the world. Everyone knows this.

If we can't keep Mexicans out, they deserve our land

 

[TruePaige]

Israelis need to stop building settlements. I mean 100% halt. Leave the equipment on the sites frozen in place.

Why?

Israel is a nation that can be dealt with. I wish they controlled more of the middle east. As much as possible in fact.

 

[irishScott]

Why?

Israel is a nation that can be dealt with. I wish they controlled more of the middle east. As much as possible in fact.

Because if nothing else (and it is a lot "else" IMO) it's the Palestinians' primary valid complaint. Take away that, and at the very least it looks like the Israelis are doing something internationally valid for peace; as opposed to previous "look, we did goody so-and-so years ago!" that next to no one outside of Israel agrees with. This would garner them more international support if nothing else, and make Hamas and other Palestinian radicals into the verifiable bad guys.

But then again, according to Israel they need no international support.

Kind of ironic really. Sure they're two completely different countries with far different internal motivations and politics, but outwardly Israel is looking more and more like Iran with respect to the international community; of late.

 

[HGC]

So if someone walks into your house and decides to divide it up between him and his friend, leaving you to live in the basement on your own, you would say yes?

What if it wasn't your house and you were only renting?

The region was ruled by Ottoman Turks (not Arabs) for hundreds of years. They lost it in WWI to the British. The British divested, allocating most of the land to Arabs, and some to Jews. Neighboring Arab states then launched an imperialistic, religiously chauvanistic war of aggression that continues to this day.

 

[Noobtastic]

Israelis need to stop building settlements. I mean 100% halt. Leave the equipment on the sites frozen in place.

Why? Jews can't live in the desert?

there is a major housing shortage in Jerusalem, HUGE. And because of this political bullshit, Jews can't build homes in a already existing Jewish communities for fear of offending the public.

To think, JEWS BUILDING HOTELS AND CONDOS! OMG THE HUMANITY!

Of all the shit going on in the World, this is what needs to end!

900,000 Jews were expelled by the Arabs between 1948-1973, a land 4x the size of Israel confiscated by the Arabs that legally belonged to Jews for centuries, if not more.

Are the Arabs illegal settlers?

Plus, what about restored communities? Gush Eztion, the major settlement bloc in the WB, was originally a village burned down in the revolts - but then re-built in 1970s.

I do not support homes being built on land that is not owned by Israelis, any less than I support homes being built on land that is not owned by Palestinians, or Syrians, or Russians, Americans, etc.

However, the vast majority of the Jewish population in Jerusalem and the WB live on land either purchased legally or under-developed.

And if it weren't for the Palestinian Land Laws that make selling land to Jews a CAPITAL OFFENSE (Hundreds have been executed since 1967), I'm sure there would be less problems.

A lot of land is "claimed" by the Palestinians but most of it is empty or under-developed. Titles/ownership is disputed, Supreme court of Israel has ruled against individual settlements, and vice-versa.

Either way, the "settlement" issue is not a valid excuse to not negotiate. It was never a precondition in Oslo 1, 2, Madrid, or even Camp David.

Israel destroyed over 80 WB settlements, evicted 9,000 Jews out of the Gaza - and the Palestinians gave nothing in return except more demands.

People tend to forget the actual Palestinian people, when polled, don't consider the "settlements" themselves a threat. It wasn't until the 1990s did Israel start building check points, fences, etc.

Virtually all of the real Palestinian land confiscated as been used in the name of "security" - mostly roads that have to be built around Arab cities like Ramallah or Nablus because they won't let Jews use their roads.

2 weeks ago an Israeli woman lost half her brain when a mob of Palestinian teenagers lobbed a massive rock at her windshield.

Monsters.

Why should Israel agree to stop constructing settlements for nothing? The Palestinians should be making promises, not the other way around.

All unilateral concessions have been used as a pretext to squeeze further concessions. Palestinian leadership will never negotiate until they know their existence depends on it.

I don't blame them. It's not like their economy or 2 billion a year from the EU is on the line.

 

[HGC]

Excellent post, IHateViruses.

Different religious and ethnic groups build and live side by side all over the world, regardless of political boundaries. Why is it that Arab states must be Judenrein?

Genocidal religious fanaticism and racism.

 

[irishScott]

Why? Jews can't live in the desert?

there is a major housing shortage in Jerusalem, HUGE. And because of this political bullshit, Jews can't build homes in a already existing Jewish communities for fear of offending the public.

To think, JEWS BUILDING HOTELS AND CONDOS! OMG THE HUMANITY!

Of all the shit going on in the World, this is what needs to end!

900,000 Jews were expelled by the Arabs between 1948-1973, a land 4x the size of Israel confiscated by the Arabs that legally belonged to Jews for centuries, if not more.

Are the Arabs illegal settlers?

Plus, what about restored communities? Gush Eztion, the major settlement bloc in the WB, was originally a village burned down in the revolts - but then re-built in 1970s.

I do not support homes being built on land that is not owned by Israelis, any less than I support homes being built on land that is not owned by Palestinians, or Syrians, or Russians, Americans, etc.

However, the vast majority of the Jewish population in Jerusalem and the WB live on land either purchased legally or under-developed.

And if it weren't for the Palestinian Land Laws that make selling land to Jews a CAPITAL OFFENSE (Hundreds have been executed since 1967), I'm sure there would be less problems.

A lot of land is "claimed" by the Palestinians but most of it is empty or under-developed. Titles/ownership is disputed, Supreme court of Israel has ruled against individual settlements, and vice-versa.

Either way, the "settlement" issue is not a valid excuse to not negotiate. It was never a precondition in Oslo 1, 2, Madrid, or even Camp David.

Israel destroyed over 80 WB settlements, evicted 9,000 Jews out of the Gaza - and the Palestinians gave nothing in return except more demands.

People tend to forget the actual Palestinian people, when polled, don't consider the "settlements" themselves a threat. It wasn't until the 1990s did Israel start building check points, fences, etc.

Virtually all of the real Palestinian land confiscated as been used in the name of "security" - mostly roads that have to be built around Arab cities like Ramallah or Nablus because they won't let Jews use their roads.

2 weeks ago an Israeli woman lost half her brain when a mob of Palestinian teenagers lobbed a massive rock at her windshield.

Monsters.

Why should Israel agree to stop constructing settlements for nothing? The Palestinians should be making promises, not the other way around.

All unilateral concessions have been used as a pretext to squeeze further concessions. Palestinian leadership will never negotiate until they know their existence depends on it.

I don't blame them. It's not like their economy or 2 billion a year from the EU is on the line.

As I said, if nothing else Israel needs to do it for a few months to get international support and shut the Palestinians up. That way if things really do go south and the Palestinians do return to terrorism, Israel will look like the good guy and can come down hard with fewer repercussions.

As it stands Israel looks like the bad guy to the international community, and coming down hard on the Palestinians will simply make them look worse, possibly to the point of sanctions (although it would take extreme circumstances for that). Obama has repeatably proven he doesn't care too much for Israel, so without us Israel is alone in terms of effective allies.

Like it or not the Palestinians aren't going anywhere. You can either play the game and think a few moves ahead, enduring some temporary injustice to win; or you can whine about how you're right and no one loves you like Israel is currently doing.

 

[JS80]

As I said, if nothing else Israel needs to do it for a few months to get international support and shut the Palestinians up. That way if things really do go south and the Palestinians do return to terrorism, Israel will look like the good guy and can come down hard with fewer repercussions.

As it stands Israel looks like the bad guy to the international community, and coming down hard on the Palestinians will simply make them look worse, possibly to the point of sanctions (although it would take extreme circumstances for that). Obama has repeatably proven he doesn't care too much for Israel, so without us Israel is alone in terms of effective allies.

Like it or not the Palestinians aren't going anywhere. You can either play the game and think a few moves ahead, enduring some temporary injustice to win; or you can whine about how you're right and no one loves you like Israel is currently doing.

Israel will be the "bad guy" because the state of Israel exists. Ceasing to build condos will not change a thing. Hell in an alternate universe, I bet they'd still be the "bad guys" if they were Jews living in a Muslim palestine state, even as they were being slaughtered or discriminated against.

 

[Noobtastic]

As I said, if nothing else Israel needs to do it for a few months to get international support and shut the Palestinians up. That way if things really do go south and the Palestinians do return to terrorism, Israel will look like the good guy and can come down hard with fewer repercussions.

You are clueless. The international community doesn't give a shit about Palestine.

As long as oil politics are in the mix Israel will always be wrong and the Arabs will always be the victim.

Nothing Israel can do to stop it. Nothing.

Don't remember Oslo 1? Israel dubiously removed dozens of settlements, gave Palestinians 80% control of Gaza and 40% control of the West Bank - what did they get in return?

More violence. More terrorism. More international condemnation.

Back in the 50s and 60s, far more Palestinians and Israelis were being killed. Over 1,500 and 7,000+ Palestinians in border wars.

But the world didn't give a shit because Israel would tolerate terrorism and wasn't going to sacrifice its sovereignty for some bullshit peace process.

The world doesn't respect Israel because Israel doesn't respect itself.

If America was being treated this way I'd bomb the UN headquarters.

 

[Noobtastic]

As I said, if nothing else Israel needs to do it for a few months to get international support and shut the Palestinians up. That way if things really do go south and the Palestinians do return to terrorism, Israel will look like the good guy and can come down hard with fewer repercussions.

You are clueless. The international community doesn't give a shit about Palestine.

As long as oil politics are in the mix Israel will always be wrong and the Arabs will always be the victim.

Nothing Israel can do to stop it. Nothing.

Don't remember Oslo 1? Israel dubiously removed dozens of settlements, gave Palestinians 80% control of Gaza and 40% control of the West Bank - what did they get in return?

More violence. More terrorism. More international condemnation.

Back in the 50s and 60s, far more Palestinians and Israelis were being killed. Over 1,500 and 7,000+ Palestinians in border wars.

But the world didn't give a shit because Israel would tolerate terrorism and wasn't going to sacrifice its sovereignty for some bullshit peace process.

The world doesn't respect Israel because Israel doesn't respect itself.

If America was being treated this way I'd bomb the UN headquarters.

 

[AzN]

The U.N. also says Israel is a state. If you are going to apply U.N. rules... both sides need to adhere to them.

Except UN is led by US who support Israel

 

[Noobtastic]

Except UN is led by US who support Israel

Wrong, UN is lead by non-democracies.

46 UN-member states don't have diplomatic relations with Israel. 22 states don't even recognize Israel.

The UN is run by vote. Each state has one vote, period. UNGA is thus controlled by the non-alignment movement, and the dictatorships are protected by the UNHRC which is *lol* led by Saudi Arabia and Pakistan.

This is why 1/3 of all UNHRC resolutions have been directed at Israel, and zero have been directed at the Muslim world.

This is why Israel has been subject to more UN resolutions than all other nations combined.

UN is a joke.

 

[DanDaManJC]

Wrong, UN is lead by non-democracies.

46 UN-member states don't have diplomatic relations with Israel. 22 states don't even recognize Israel.

The UN is run by vote. Each state has one vote, period. UNGA is thus controlled by the non-alignment movement, and the dictatorships are protected by the UNHRC which is *lol* led by Saudi Arabia and Pakistan.

This is why 1/3 of all UNHRC resolutions have been directed at Israel, and zero have been directed at the Muslim world.

This is why Israel has been subject to more UN resolutions than all other nations combined.

UN is a joke.

And which state has a permanent seat on the security council with full veto power? The point is with that veto power the US pretty much has a virtual stranglehold over the UN and its ability to condemn Israel.

just doing a quick google search you'll find stuff like this:
http://guardian.150m.com/palestine/UN-condemnation-of-israel.htm

it does look the unhrc is pretty anti israel oriented, but what really matters is the security council since they do have some oomph behind their resolutions.

in short, im pretty sure AzN was thinking about the veto yielding US in the security council.