Pakistan Parliamentary Secretary for Defense calls for war against USA

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
That my problem Moonbeam, I am a slow typist, they tell me I am out of my tree, and being a baboon, they won't let me stay at a Holiday Inn Express.

So I will send palehorse74 off to visit ALL those people who were there in Vietnam and maybe ONE of them can tell him how we really won.

That should be a real hoot.

Most Vietnam vets I have spoken with are concerned that the politicians and ignorant people back home, such as yourself, will keep us from being successful in Afghanistan for the same exact reasons we failed in Vietnam.

Reason Number One, Fact: The DMZ, and the borders with Laos and Cambodia, essentially stopped us from annihilating the NVA (invisible lines in the dirt FTL!). Had we been allowed to bomb the north, every day, and subsequently bomb and assault the entire Ho Chi Min Trail - which wound, untouched, through Laos and Cambodia - the NVA would have never gotten within 200 miles of Saigon, and Hanoi would have probably surrendered in less than one year. The sad truth is that panzies and politicians back home prevented that from ever happening - the same way they are preventing the destruction of AQ and the Taliban today.

Lemon, there is certainly a group of people who failed to learn from the mistakes of Vietnam, but you won't find them on my side of this issue. Look inward...

 

[Lemon law]

palehorse74,

I am surprised with your lack of honesty on Vietnam and for once you might have been right. But the implacable enemy was the Viet Cong and they came from---guess what, North Vietnam. But again there were rules to the Vietnam game also. And rule one was that we could try to bomb the hell out of North Vietnam, but the very second we put the first US boot into North Vietnam----in came all them yellow hordes from China as China had stated they would use force to prevent that. We had called the China bluff better than a decade previous in the Korean War and McAuthur damn near got annihilated when China proved they were not bluffing. And neither LBJ or Nixon were willing to see if China was bluffing again.

All this crap about widening the war to Laos and Cambodia was merely another attempt to cheat the game rules in an attempt to cut Vietcong supply lines. And as we can see, it did not work and just made the problem into a bigger clusterfuck. Deny it or not---the SouthVietnamese simply did not buy what we were selling and we became just another foreign devil to expel. Something they had done countless times in their history. And had just given the Japs and the French the old heave ho.

Your problem palehorse74 is that you try to make all problems into military problems and totally ignore the crucial fact that far greater political consideration doom all your efforts. If we would have worked with instead of against historical and political considerations and forces, we may have salvaged something out of Vietnam. As it is, we did not and lost.

Meanwhile back at the ranch, Afghanistan and Pakistan are also mainly political problems. Ignore the political problems at your own peril. You are and its not US public support that is causing the Taliban to have its present resurgence. Its about 95% because our military is ignoring political factors.

 

[JD50]

Non-Lemon Law,

What is with your obsession with rules? You keep talking about these so called "rules" that we have to follow, while our enemy doesn't have to follow a single rule, and you seem perfectly fine with that. Of course we aren't going to be able to win a war if we have to play by some rules made up by all of these arm chair generals and politicians just concerned about the next election.

 

[Lemon law]

Originally posted by: JD50
Non-Lemon Law,

What is with your obsession with rules? You keep talking about these so called "rules" that we have to follow, while our enemy doesn't have to follow a single rule, and you seem perfectly fine with that. Of course we aren't going to be able to win a war if we have to play by some rules made up by all of these arm chair generals and politicians just concerned about the next election.

You do make a good but a paradoxical point. In order for us to be the good guys we do have to follow the rules that reality sets. And the opposition does not claim to be the good guys, does not have to follow the rules, and wins by merely staying in the game. Like it or not, that is the calculus an occupier gets when they go from their home and sets up in someone else's
territory.

If you want to have something to complain about, call it home court advantage. And when someone like China says thou shalt not set a boot on North Vietnamese soil, they may not be God, but LBJ and Nixon were unwilling to violate that thou shalt not. And at other times that thou Shalt not just comes from the political arena, touch that third rail and you die. In Iraq, Afghanistan, and Pakistan we may have all the military aces, but cannot win without the hearts and minds that all the military might in the world can't compel.

But if it also makes you feel any better---there are also rules that the opposition can't get away with either.

 

[JD50]

Originally posted by: Lemon law

Originally posted by: JD50
Non-Lemon Law,

What is with your obsession with rules? You keep talking about these so called "rules" that we have to follow, while our enemy doesn't have to follow a single rule, and you seem perfectly fine with that. Of course we aren't going to be able to win a war if we have to play by some rules made up by all of these arm chair generals and politicians just concerned about the next election.

You do make a good but a paradoxical point. In order for us to be the good guys we do have to follow the rules that reality sets. And the opposition does not claim to be the good guys, does not have to follow the rules, and wins by merely staying in the game. Like it or not, that is the calculus an occupier gets when they go from their home and sets up in someone else's
territory.

If you want to have something to complain about, call it home court advantage. And when someone like China says thou shalt not set a boot on North Vietnamese soil, they may not be God, but LBJ and Nixon were unwilling to violate that thou shalt not. And at other times that thou Shalt not just comes from the political arena, touch that third rail and you die. In Iraq, Afghanistan, and Pakistan we may have all the military aces, but cannot win without the hearts and minds that all the military might in the world can't compel.

But if it also makes you feel any better---there are also rules that the opposition can't get away with either.

Well, as long as there are people like you and our politicians that are more concerned with playing by some made up rules and being looked at as "the good guys" we will never win a guerilla style conflict like we are fighting right now in Afghanistan.

Personally, I'd rather kill all of those that are trying to kill us (AQ) and be judged on the world stage by a bunch of pansy countries that rely on us to police the world then just let our enemies run around and do whatever they feel like. I completely understand that many of these countries are more concerned about their self interests than our war against AQ, but fuck em, what are they gonna do? As long as we aren't going all willy nilly into other countries just for the hell of it, I don't see the problem. If AQ is hiding out in Pakistan and we go in and take them out because Pakistan won't, or can't, do it themselves, then whats the big deal? Our cause is a noble one, we are defeating our enemies and making it safer for the Afghans all at the same time.

I wish that we'd stop playing "world police" and just concern ourselves with defeating our own enemies. Let the rest of the world fend for themselves if they think we are such a horrible country for wanting to go into the border regions of Pakistan to kill a ruthless terrorist organization that is hell bent on killing Americans.

 

[Lemon law]

to JD50,

You have just described a perfect how to lose every time strategy. It falls apart when we can't tell the good guys from the bad guys in a local population. And also fails when we
totally destroy all local institutions and then do not have enough forces to provide law and order. And then the very anarchy we create becomes our worst enemy and the oppositions greatest asset. While the local population we must win over sits doing the slow burn.

And your attitude is---'but fuck em, what are they gonna do?"

And the answer is resist us tooth and nail---they are already home---and we are away from home---they figure they can wait us out---because we will get homesick---and they never can---and are just trying to do a little home improvement by getting rid of people with a fuck them attitude.

Does it ever occur to anyone that there are smarter ways to go about doing things? And we can start by losing the fuck them attitude.

 

[JD50]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
to JD50,

You have just described a perfect how to lose every time strategy. It falls apart when we can't tell the good guys from the bad guys in a local population. And also fails when we
totally destroy all local institutions and then do not have enough forces to provide law and order. And then the very anarchy we create becomes our worst enemy and the oppositions greatest asset. While the local population we must win over sits doing the slow burn.

And your attitude is---'but fuck em, what are they gonna do?"

And the answer is resist us tooth and nail---they are already home---and we are away from home---they figure they can wait us out---because we will get homesick---and they never can---and are just trying to do a little home improvement by getting rid of people with a fuck them attitude.

Does it ever occur to anyone that there are smarter ways to go about doing things? And we can start by losing the fuck them attitude.

Well, so far, we've lost every time using your strategy of being so concerned about offending anyone that we abide by these "rules" that stop us from going over some imaginery line in the sand to chase our enemy.

And who is going to fight us tooth and nail? The people in the villages that are deathly afraid of AQ because its so easy for them to come into these border towns and reak havoc as long as they have their safe haven just over the border? Or AQ that is already fighting us tooth and nail?

 

[imported_Tango]

Originally posted by: Frackal

Originally posted by: The Green Bean

Originally posted by: ayabe
Fact:

Your country is harboring terrorists in it's territory with some help from your security forces and you want to point fingers about backstabbing? Get your affairs under control and there won't be a problem.

Facts outside America require proofs.

Shut the fuck up with your sanctimonious bullshit. "facts outside America require proofs" We could bulldoze your backwards nation into dust in a few weeks wihout missing an episode of the X-Files on Thursday nights. The main reason we don't and never have is because the US adheres to higher values than any comparable power in history. To criticize the US is fine, but if you give a fuck about proportionality (which is part of fact/proof), you better start being accurate. To act as though the US were at the bottom of free information flow (where the fuck do you think the internet came from) is straight up bullshit, and it's such severe bullshit that it truly pisses me off. Grow up.

Geneva, Switzerland

Now, where the fuck do you think it came from?

 

[JEDIYoda]

when does school start....

 

[heyheybooboo]

Originally posted by: JEDIYoda
when does school start....

Now . . . .

1962: Paul Baran of RAND develops the idea of distributed, packet-switching networks.

ARPANET goes online in 1969.

Bob Kahn and Vint Cerf develop the basic ideas of the Internet in 1973.

In 1974 BBN opens the first public packet-switched network - Telenet.

A UUCP link between the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill and Duke University establishes USENET in 1979.

TCP/IP (Transmission Control Protocol and Internet Protocol) is established as the standard for ARPANET in 1982.

1987: the number of network hosts breaks 10,000.

1989: the number of hosts breaks 100,000.


and btw, In 1958 (?) Bell Labs developed the first modulator-demodulator device that became known as "modem".

This modem had a speed of 300 baud

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
You have just described a perfect how to lose every time strategy.

Actually, it's folks like you, and your "rules," that led to US defeat in all of the half-fought wars since WWII.

Your way has consistently failed - Korea, Vietnam, Somalia, and now Afghanistan - and, what's worse, you sanctimonious pricks turn right around and blame the resulting defeats on the military itself.

AQ and the Taliban need to be destroyed, period. AFAIC, you should take your "rules" and shove them up your collective panzy asses.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: Tango

Originally posted by: Frackal

Originally posted by: The Green Bean

Originally posted by: ayabe
Fact:

Your country is harboring terrorists in it's territory with some help from your security forces and you want to point fingers about backstabbing? Get your affairs under control and there won't be a problem.

Facts outside America require proofs.

Shut the fuck up with your sanctimonious bullshit. "facts outside America require proofs" We could bulldoze your backwards nation into dust in a few weeks wihout missing an episode of the X-Files on Thursday nights. The main reason we don't and never have is because the US adheres to higher values than any comparable power in history. To criticize the US is fine, but if you give a fuck about proportionality (which is part of fact/proof), you better start being accurate. To act as though the US were at the bottom of free information flow (where the fuck do you think the internet came from) is straight up bullshit, and it's such severe bullshit that it truly pisses me off. Grow up.

Geneva, Switzerland

Now, where the fuck do you think it came from?

umm, CERN hosted the world's first location on the World Wide Web, which resides on the internet. Heyheybooboo listed the history for the actual internet itself, which you can see was clearly invented in the U.S.

Switzerland merely improved the application and presentation layers.

 

[Lemon law]

To palehorse74,

Who somehow blames me in saying---Actually, it's folks like you, and your "rules," that led to US defeat in all of the half-fought wars since WWII.

Cheer up palehorse74---those same rules led to the soviets to lose all their half baked wars since WW2. And we and the soviets are not the lone rangers. Them reality rules are truly equal opportunity employers. They always get the arrogant who discover they are just pushing with all their might against an immovable object. You can read all about it in history books. All them super powers who thought they could use power to get around being smart.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
To palehorse74,

Who somehow blames me in saying---Actually, it's folks like you, and your "rules," that led to US defeat in all of the half-fought wars since WWII.

Cheer up palehorse74---those same rules led to the soviets to lose all their half baked wars since WW2. And we and the soviets are not the lone rangers. Them reality rules are truly equal opportunity employers. They always get the arrogant who discover they are just pushing with all their might against an immovable object. You can read all about it in history books. All them super powers who thought they could use power to get around being smart.

You can also read all about those whose military was allowed to close with and destroy their enemies without political strings, rules, or remorse.

Make no mistake about it: you are part of the problem, not the solution. AQ and the Taliban need to be destroyed, and people like you are allowing them to regroup and thrive unhindered. Your "rules" will only result in further Afghan, Pakistani, and NATO-member deaths - and the appearance of U.S. defeat. Take that to bed with you and sleep well...

 

[heyheybooboo]

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: Tango

Geneva, Switzerland

Now, where the fuck do you think it came from?

umm, CERN hosted the world's first location on the World Wide Web, which resides on the internet. Heyheybooboo listed the history for the actual internet itself, which you can see was clearly invented in the U.S.

Switzerland merely improved the application and presentation layers.

Than-yuh. Than-yuh. Than-yuh vury much . . . .

As I came into this World in the Old North State in the year of Sputnik, as much as it pains me I give credit to The Dookies for USENET. And in closing . . .

In the Durham city ditches
Lies a school named Dook.
A New Jersey prep school,
the sons-uh-bitches,
Smell worse than 5-day puke! So its . . .

Rah! Rah! Carolina - lina.
Rah! Rah! Carolina - lina.
Rah! Rah! Carolina
Go to Hell, Dook!


Can we lock this thread and move on, guys?

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: heyheybooboo

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: Tango

Geneva, Switzerland

Now, where the fuck do you think it came from?

umm, CERN hosted the world's first location on the World Wide Web, which resides on the internet. Heyheybooboo listed the history for the actual internet itself, which you can see was clearly invented in the U.S.

Switzerland merely improved the application and presentation layers.

Than-yuh. Than-yuh. Than-yuh vury much . . . .

As I came into this World in the Old North State in the year of Sputnik, as much as it pains me I give credit to The Dookies for USENET. And in closing . . .

In the Durham city ditches
Lies a school named Dook.
A New Jersey prep school,
the sons-uh-bitches,
Smell worse than 5-day puke! So its . . .

Rah! Rah! Carolina - lina.
Rah! Rah! Carolina - lina.
Rah! Rah! Carolina
Go to Hell, Dook!


Can we lock this thread and move on, guys?

awww, come on! I wanted to school him on the OSI Model when he comes back to ask about the layers damnit!

As for "The Dookies," all I can say is that USENET may be one of the best networks in the mix!

As for the actual topic of the thread, I think the thread is dead. We've established the two very different lines of thought regarding AQ and the Taliban in Pakistan. One side wants to restrict our abilities to wage war, and the other wants to flatout destroy the enemy. Hopefully the two sides will eventually see eye-to-eye on a working strategy and figure out a way to satisfy the Military and the Political Panzies.... we shall see...

 

[imported_Tango]

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: Tango

Originally posted by: Frackal

Originally posted by: The Green Bean

Originally posted by: ayabe
Fact:

Your country is harboring terrorists in it's territory with some help from your security forces and you want to point fingers about backstabbing? Get your affairs under control and there won't be a problem.

Facts outside America require proofs.

Shut the fuck up with your sanctimonious bullshit. "facts outside America require proofs" We could bulldoze your backwards nation into dust in a few weeks wihout missing an episode of the X-Files on Thursday nights. The main reason we don't and never have is because the US adheres to higher values than any comparable power in history. To criticize the US is fine, but if you give a fuck about proportionality (which is part of fact/proof), you better start being accurate. To act as though the US were at the bottom of free information flow (where the fuck do you think the internet came from) is straight up bullshit, and it's such severe bullshit that it truly pisses me off. Grow up.

Geneva, Switzerland

Now, where the fuck do you think it came from?

umm, CERN hosted the world's first location on the World Wide Web, which resides on the internet. Heyheybooboo listed the history for the actual internet itself, which you can see was clearly invented in the U.S.

Switzerland merely improved the application and presentation layers.

Nope.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Www

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H..._of_the_World_Wide_Web

This NeXTcube used by Berners-Lee at CERN became the first Web server.
This NeXTcube used by Berners-Lee at CERN became the first Web server.

The underlying ideas of the Web can be traced as far back as 1980, when, at CERN in Switzerland, the Englishman Tim Berners-Lee built ENQUIRE (referring to Enquire Within Upon Everything, a book he recalled from his youth). While it was rather different from the Web in use today, it contained many of the same core ideas (and even some of the ideas of Berners-Lee's next project after the WWW, the Semantic Web).

In March 1989, Tim Berners-Lee wrote a proposal[2], which referenced ENQUIRE and described a more elaborate information management system. With help from Robert Cailliau, he published a more formal proposal for the World Wide Web[3] on November 12, 1990.

Saying the internet was invented in the US is like saying the printing press was invented in Egypt because that's where they invented the papyrus.

 

[heyheybooboo]

Ahem . . . .

Thursday 10 Mar 2005

Question: Did you invent the Internet?

Tim Berners-Lee: No, no, no!

When I was doing the WWW, most of the bits I needed were already done.

Vint Cerf and people he worked with had figured out the Internet Protocol, and also the Transmission Control Protocol.

Paul Mockapetris and friends had figured out the Domain Name System.

People had already used TCP/IP and DNS to make email, and other cool things. So I could email other people who maybe would like to help work on making the WWW.

I didn't invent the hypertext link either. The idea of jumping from one document to another had been thought about lots of people, including Vanevar Bush in 1945, and by Ted Nelson (who actually invented the word hypertext). Bush did it before computers really existed. Ted thought of a system but didn't use the internet. Doug Engelbart in the 1960's made a great system just like WWW except that it just ran on one [big] computer, as the internet hadn't been invented yet. Lots of hypertext systems had been made which just worked on one computer, and didn't link all the way across the world.

I just had to take the hypertext idea and connect it to the TCP and DNS ideas and -- ta-da! -- the World Wide Web.


Q: I understand you invented the Internet....

A: Sorry, not me! I was lucky enough to invent the Web at the time when the Internet already existed - and had for a decade and a half. If you are looking for fathers of the Internet, try Vint Cerf and Bob Kahn who defined the "Internet Protocol" (IP) by which packets are sent on from one computer to another until they reach their destination. See:

* "Cerf's Up" : MCI WorldCom on technology" with profile and FAQs by Vint, who currently works for MCI.

Vint explains the timing:

"The DESIGN of Internet was done in 1973 and published in 1974. There ensued about 10 years of hard work, resulting in the roll out of Internet in 1983. Prior to that, a number of demonstrations were made of the technology - such as the first three-network interconnection demonstrated in November 1977 linking SATNET, PRNET and ARPANET in a path leading from Menlo Park, CA to University College London and back to USC/ISI in Marina del Rey, CA."

David Clark, of MIT's LCS, is another one I can point to who put in the work in the 1970s which made the Web possible in the 1990s.

Vint Cerf and Bob Kahn used, in making IP, the concept of packet switching which had been invented by Paul Barran.

It is also good to mention the Domain Name Service upon which the web relies heavily. The protocols which make the DNS work were pioneered and standardized by Paul Mockapetris.

Q: What is the difference between the Net and the Web?

A: The Internet ('Net) is a network of networks. Basically it is made from computers and cables. What Vint Cerf and Bob Kahn did was to figure out how this could be used to send around little "packets" of information. As Vint points out, a packet is a bit like a postcard with a simple address on it. If you put the right address on a packet, and gave it to any computer which is connected as part of the Net, each computer would figure out which cable to send it down next so that it would get to its destination. That's what the Internet does. It delivers packets - anywhere in the world, normally well under a second.

Lots of different sort of programs use the Internet: electronic mail, for example, was around long before the global hypertext system I invented and called the World Wide Web ('Web). Now, videoconferencing and streamed audio channels are among other things which, like the Web, encode information in different ways and use different languages between computers ("protocols") to provide a service.

The Web is an abstract (imaginary) space of information. On the Net, you find computers -- on the Web, you find document, sounds, videos,.... information. On the Net, the connections are cables between computers; on the Web, connections are hypertext links. The Web exists because of programs which communicate between computers on the Net. The Web could not be without the Net. The Web made the net useful because people are really interested in information (not to mention knowledge and wisdom!) and don't really want to have know about computers and cables.


I now return you to your Fantasy World.

 

[imported_Tango]

Originally posted by: heyheybooboo
Ahem . . . .

Thursday 10 Mar 2005

Question: Did you invent the Internet?

Tim Berners-Lee: No, no, no!

When I was doing the WWW, most of the bits I needed were already done.

Vint Cerf and people he worked with had figured out the Internet Protocol, and also the Transmission Control Protocol.

Paul Mockapetris and friends had figured out the Domain Name System.

People had already used TCP/IP and DNS to make email, and other cool things. So I could email other people who maybe would like to help work on making the WWW.

I didn't invent the hypertext link either. The idea of jumping from one document to another had been thought about lots of people, including Vanevar Bush in 1945, and by Ted Nelson (who actually invented the word hypertext). Bush did it before computers really existed. Ted thought of a system but didn't use the internet. Doug Engelbart in the 1960's made a great system just like WWW except that it just ran on one [big] computer, as the internet hadn't been invented yet. Lots of hypertext systems had been made which just worked on one computer, and didn't link all the way across the world.

I just had to take the hypertext idea and connect it to the TCP and DNS ideas and -- ta-da! -- the World Wide Web.


Q: I understand you invented the Internet....

A: Sorry, not me! I was lucky enough to invent the Web at the time when the Internet already existed - and had for a decade and a half. If you are looking for fathers of the Internet, try Vint Cerf and Bob Kahn who defined the "Internet Protocol" (IP) by which packets are sent on from one computer to another until they reach their destination. See:

* "Cerf's Up" : MCI WorldCom on technology" with profile and FAQs by Vint, who currently works for MCI.

Vint explains the timing:

"The DESIGN of Internet was done in 1973 and published in 1974. There ensued about 10 years of hard work, resulting in the roll out of Internet in 1983. Prior to that, a number of demonstrations were made of the technology - such as the first three-network interconnection demonstrated in November 1977 linking SATNET, PRNET and ARPANET in a path leading from Menlo Park, CA to University College London and back to USC/ISI in Marina del Rey, CA."

David Clark, of MIT's LCS, is another one I can point to who put in the work in the 1970s which made the Web possible in the 1990s.

Vint Cerf and Bob Kahn used, in making IP, the concept of packet switching which had been invented by Paul Barran.

It is also good to mention the Domain Name Service upon which the web relies heavily. The protocols which make the DNS work were pioneered and standardized by Paul Mockapetris.

Q: What is the difference between the Net and the Web?

A: The Internet ('Net) is a network of networks. Basically it is made from computers and cables. What Vint Cerf and Bob Kahn did was to figure out how this could be used to send around little "packets" of information. As Vint points out, a packet is a bit like a postcard with a simple address on it. If you put the right address on a packet, and gave it to any computer which is connected as part of the Net, each computer would figure out which cable to send it down next so that it would get to its destination. That's what the Internet does. It delivers packets - anywhere in the world, normally well under a second.

Lots of different sort of programs use the Internet: electronic mail, for example, was around long before the global hypertext system I invented and called the World Wide Web ('Web). Now, videoconferencing and streamed audio channels are among other things which, like the Web, encode information in different ways and use different languages between computers ("protocols") to provide a service.

The Web is an abstract (imaginary) space of information. On the Net, you find computers -- on the Web, you find document, sounds, videos,.... information. On the Net, the connections are cables between computers; on the Web, connections are hypertext links. The Web exists because of programs which communicate between computers on the Net. The Web could not be without the Net. The Web made the net useful because people are really interested in information (not to mention knowledge and wisdom!) and don't really want to have know about computers and cables.


I now return you to your Fantasy World.

You might not be familiar with key concepts in Philosophy of Culture, otherwise it would be clear to you why the CERN is considered the inventor of the world wide web.

The internet is made by cables and computers. Of course both cables and computer existed before the CERN developed its protocol. But the concept of how to use these parts is the internet, not the hardware used to do it. Again, you still consider Gutenberg to have invented the printing press even though he didn't invent the paper which he printed on, nor the mechanical parts he used to build his machine, nor the ink he used. Gutenberg invented the concept of transferring ink to paper via a mechanical, semi-automatized machine. In the same way, CERN developed the concept of using available infrastructures (both physical and intellectual) to let effectively communicate. The hypertext as a concept goes back to the 19th century, and computers could also be dated back to WWII. But the vision of the WWW as we use it now is a CERN invention.

http://www.w3.org/History/1989/proposal.html

http://www.hitmill.com/internet/web_history.html

http://wwwpdp.web.cern.ch/wwwpdp/ns/ben/TCPHIST.html

 

[JD50]

Originally posted by: Tango

Originally posted by: heyheybooboo
Ahem . . . .

Thursday 10 Mar 2005

Question: Did you invent the Internet?

Tim Berners-Lee: No, no, no!

When I was doing the WWW, most of the bits I needed were already done.

Vint Cerf and people he worked with had figured out the Internet Protocol, and also the Transmission Control Protocol.

Paul Mockapetris and friends had figured out the Domain Name System.

People had already used TCP/IP and DNS to make email, and other cool things. So I could email other people who maybe would like to help work on making the WWW.

I didn't invent the hypertext link either. The idea of jumping from one document to another had been thought about lots of people, including Vanevar Bush in 1945, and by Ted Nelson (who actually invented the word hypertext). Bush did it before computers really existed. Ted thought of a system but didn't use the internet. Doug Engelbart in the 1960's made a great system just like WWW except that it just ran on one [big] computer, as the internet hadn't been invented yet. Lots of hypertext systems had been made which just worked on one computer, and didn't link all the way across the world.

I just had to take the hypertext idea and connect it to the TCP and DNS ideas and -- ta-da! -- the World Wide Web.


Q: I understand you invented the Internet....

A: Sorry, not me! I was lucky enough to invent the Web at the time when the Internet already existed - and had for a decade and a half. If you are looking for fathers of the Internet, try Vint Cerf and Bob Kahn who defined the "Internet Protocol" (IP) by which packets are sent on from one computer to another until they reach their destination. See:

* "Cerf's Up" : MCI WorldCom on technology" with profile and FAQs by Vint, who currently works for MCI.

Vint explains the timing:

"The DESIGN of Internet was done in 1973 and published in 1974. There ensued about 10 years of hard work, resulting in the roll out of Internet in 1983. Prior to that, a number of demonstrations were made of the technology - such as the first three-network interconnection demonstrated in November 1977 linking SATNET, PRNET and ARPANET in a path leading from Menlo Park, CA to University College London and back to USC/ISI in Marina del Rey, CA."

David Clark, of MIT's LCS, is another one I can point to who put in the work in the 1970s which made the Web possible in the 1990s.

Vint Cerf and Bob Kahn used, in making IP, the concept of packet switching which had been invented by Paul Barran.

It is also good to mention the Domain Name Service upon which the web relies heavily. The protocols which make the DNS work were pioneered and standardized by Paul Mockapetris.

Q: What is the difference between the Net and the Web?

A: The Internet ('Net) is a network of networks. Basically it is made from computers and cables. What Vint Cerf and Bob Kahn did was to figure out how this could be used to send around little "packets" of information. As Vint points out, a packet is a bit like a postcard with a simple address on it. If you put the right address on a packet, and gave it to any computer which is connected as part of the Net, each computer would figure out which cable to send it down next so that it would get to its destination. That's what the Internet does. It delivers packets - anywhere in the world, normally well under a second.

Lots of different sort of programs use the Internet: electronic mail, for example, was around long before the global hypertext system I invented and called the World Wide Web ('Web). Now, videoconferencing and streamed audio channels are among other things which, like the Web, encode information in different ways and use different languages between computers ("protocols") to provide a service.

The Web is an abstract (imaginary) space of information. On the Net, you find computers -- on the Web, you find document, sounds, videos,.... information. On the Net, the connections are cables between computers; on the Web, connections are hypertext links. The Web exists because of programs which communicate between computers on the Net. The Web could not be without the Net. The Web made the net useful because people are really interested in information (not to mention knowledge and wisdom!) and don't really want to have know about computers and cables.


I now return you to your Fantasy World.

You might not be familiar with key concepts in Philosophy of Culture, otherwise it would be clear to you why the CERN is considered the inventor of the world wide web.

The internet is made by cables and computers. Of course both cables and computer existed before the CERN developed its protocol. But the concept of how to use these parts is the internet, not the hardware used to do it. Again, you still consider Gutenberg to have invented the printing press even though he didn't invent the paper which he printed on, nor the mechanical parts he used to build his machine, nor the ink he used. Gutenberg invented the concept of transferring ink to paper via a mechanical, semi-automatized machine. In the same way, CERN developed the concept of using available infrastructures (both physical and intellectual) to let effectively communicate. The hypertext as a concept goes back to the 19th century, and computers could also be dated back to WWII. But the vision of the WWW as we use it now is a CERN invention.

http://www.w3.org/History/1989/proposal.html

http://www.hitmill.com/internet/web_history.html

http://wwwpdp.web.cern.ch/wwwpdp/ns/ben/TCPHIST.html

You might want to go back and look at how this started in this thread. Frackal said "where the fuck do you think the internet came from"

He did not say "where the fuck do you think the world wide web came from"

ARPA created the internet and everyone knows it, sorry, you lose at rewriting history.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: Tango

Originally posted by: heyheybooboo
Ahem . . . .

Thursday 10 Mar 2005

Question: Did you invent the Internet?

Tim Berners-Lee: No, no, no!

When I was doing the WWW, most of the bits I needed were already done.

Vint Cerf and people he worked with had figured out the Internet Protocol, and also the Transmission Control Protocol.

Paul Mockapetris and friends had figured out the Domain Name System.

People had already used TCP/IP and DNS to make email, and other cool things. So I could email other people who maybe would like to help work on making the WWW.

I didn't invent the hypertext link either. The idea of jumping from one document to another had been thought about lots of people, including Vanevar Bush in 1945, and by Ted Nelson (who actually invented the word hypertext). Bush did it before computers really existed. Ted thought of a system but didn't use the internet. Doug Engelbart in the 1960's made a great system just like WWW except that it just ran on one [big] computer, as the internet hadn't been invented yet. Lots of hypertext systems had been made which just worked on one computer, and didn't link all the way across the world.

I just had to take the hypertext idea and connect it to the TCP and DNS ideas and -- ta-da! -- the World Wide Web.


Q: I understand you invented the Internet....

A: Sorry, not me! I was lucky enough to invent the Web at the time when the Internet already existed - and had for a decade and a half. If you are looking for fathers of the Internet, try Vint Cerf and Bob Kahn who defined the "Internet Protocol" (IP) by which packets are sent on from one computer to another until they reach their destination. See:

* "Cerf's Up" : MCI WorldCom on technology" with profile and FAQs by Vint, who currently works for MCI.

Vint explains the timing:

"The DESIGN of Internet was done in 1973 and published in 1974. There ensued about 10 years of hard work, resulting in the roll out of Internet in 1983. Prior to that, a number of demonstrations were made of the technology - such as the first three-network interconnection demonstrated in November 1977 linking SATNET, PRNET and ARPANET in a path leading from Menlo Park, CA to University College London and back to USC/ISI in Marina del Rey, CA."

David Clark, of MIT's LCS, is another one I can point to who put in the work in the 1970s which made the Web possible in the 1990s.

Vint Cerf and Bob Kahn used, in making IP, the concept of packet switching which had been invented by Paul Barran.

It is also good to mention the Domain Name Service upon which the web relies heavily. The protocols which make the DNS work were pioneered and standardized by Paul Mockapetris.

Q: What is the difference between the Net and the Web?

A: The Internet ('Net) is a network of networks. Basically it is made from computers and cables. What Vint Cerf and Bob Kahn did was to figure out how this could be used to send around little "packets" of information. As Vint points out, a packet is a bit like a postcard with a simple address on it. If you put the right address on a packet, and gave it to any computer which is connected as part of the Net, each computer would figure out which cable to send it down next so that it would get to its destination. That's what the Internet does. It delivers packets - anywhere in the world, normally well under a second.

Lots of different sort of programs use the Internet: electronic mail, for example, was around long before the global hypertext system I invented and called the World Wide Web ('Web). Now, videoconferencing and streamed audio channels are among other things which, like the Web, encode information in different ways and use different languages between computers ("protocols") to provide a service.

The Web is an abstract (imaginary) space of information. On the Net, you find computers -- on the Web, you find document, sounds, videos,.... information. On the Net, the connections are cables between computers; on the Web, connections are hypertext links. The Web exists because of programs which communicate between computers on the Net. The Web could not be without the Net. The Web made the net useful because people are really interested in information (not to mention knowledge and wisdom!) and don't really want to have know about computers and cables.


I now return you to your Fantasy World.

You might not be familiar with key concepts in Philosophy of Culture, otherwise it would be clear to you why the CERN is considered the inventor of the world wide web.

The internet is made by cables and computers. Of course both cables and computer existed before the CERN developed its protocol. But the concept of how to use these parts is the internet, not the hardware used to do it. Again, you still consider Gutenberg to have invented the printing press even though he didn't invent the paper which he printed on, nor the mechanical parts he used to build his machine, nor the ink he used. Gutenberg invented the concept of transferring ink to paper via a mechanical, semi-automatized machine. In the same way, CERN developed the concept of using available infrastructures (both physical and intellectual) to let effectively communicate. The hypertext as a concept goes back to the 19th century, and computers could also be dated back to WWII. But the vision of the WWW as we use it now is a CERN invention.

http://www.w3.org/History/1989/proposal.html

http://www.hitmill.com/internet/web_history.html

http://wwwpdp.web.cern.ch/wwwpdp/ns/ben/TCPHIST.html

You're mixing up two related, but very different, "inventions."

The WWW and Internet are two different things. The WWW is nothing more than the presentation and application layers of the entire 7-layer dip we call the "internet."

good game. better luck next time!

 

[Vonkhan]

Discplined army? The pak army??? Are you forgetting once of the largest surrenders in history when you guys surrendered in Bangaldesh? Even recently in the Red Mosque, your SF got their collective asses handed to them by a few unruly students.

Don't make me laugh

The pak army didn't even have the balls to accept it's own dead after Kargil. The Indian Army had to bury them with mullahs from the Indian Army overseeing the burial detail.

The US should have invaded pak instead of Afghanistan and Iraq.

 

[The Green Bean]

Originally posted by: Citrix
where did greenbean go? did he get tired of getting owned?

actually I'm out of town. Had no time for PnN until today.

 

[The Green Bean]

Originally posted by: Frackal

Originally posted by: The Green Bean

Originally posted by: ayabe
Fact:

Your country is harboring terrorists in it's territory with some help from your security forces and you want to point fingers about backstabbing? Get your affairs under control and there won't be a problem.

Facts outside America require proofs.

Shut the fuck up with your sanctimonious bullshit. "facts outside America require proofs" We could bulldoze your backwards nation into dust in a few weeks wihout missing an episode of the X-Files on Thursday nights. The main reason we don't and never have is because the US adheres to higher values than any comparable power in history. To criticize the US is fine, but if you give a fuck about proportionality (which is part of fact/proof), you better start being accurate. To act as though the US were at the bottom of free information flow (where the fuck do you think the internet came from) is straight up bullshit, and it's such severe bullshit that it truly pisses me off. Grow up.

Where was the so called internet when Bush invaded Iraq based on the "fact" that Iraq had WMDs and 95% of Americans believed him?

 

[The Green Bean]

Originally posted by: nick1985
2) How can you garuntee that India will not allow its bases to be used? Last I checked, India and Pakistan do not get along.

The same reason I can guarantee that Pakitan won't let the US use its land for fighting the Taliban and AQ. Last time I checked Taliban, AQ and Pakistan were at war.