P4 OC'd @ 3.5GHz vs A64 3400+

[Revo]

OK dudes I want your expert opinions on which is the better option for a gaming/general use rig between the following two:

- P4 2.8C OC'd to 3.5GHz with a 1GHz FSB (memory in 1:1 configuration or 5:4)
- Athlon64 3400+

Bear in mind things like price/performance, 32/64bit environments and lastly which is outright fastest. My own opinion is that anyone thinking of building a gaming /general use rig should go with the P4 option as there isn't a HUGE difference between the two at this moment in time and with the up and comming Prescott the prices for the Northwood should come down even more. What do you think?

Also one more thing, being a newbie can anyone tell me how difficult it is getting the P4 2.8GHz to 3.5GHz? Thanks!

 

[DeRailur]

For the oc its a crap shoot man. Its possible I guess but I wouldnt count on it.

 

[Revo]

Yeah I know it's not a huge overclock but it is possible. You said that you wouldn't count on it, why is that? I've heard of 2.4GHz OC'd to 3.5GHz so, shouldn't it be easier for a CPU at a higher stock speed? Also, would it be faster in a 32bit environment than the A64 3400+? and what about in a 64bit environment?

 

[myocardia]

Hey, I can answer that one for you. The A64 literally KILLS the P4 2.8 in the 64-bit environment!

 

[Markfw]

You overclock the P4, but not the Athlon64 ? Thats crap. Even without OC'ing the Athlon64 3400+ will probably beat the P4 at 3.5 based on all the benches I have seen, but if you OC the Athlon64, I would guarantee it would beat the P4@3.5.... My 3000+ keeps right up with the FX-51 in most game benches.

 

[Duvie]

Originally posted by: Markfw900
You overclock the P4, but not the Athlon64 ? Thats crap. Even without OC'ing the Athlon64 3400+ will probably beat the P4 at 3.5 based on all the benches I have seen, but if you OC the Athlon64, I would guarantee it would beat the P4@3.5.... My 3000+ keeps right up with the FX-51 in most game benches.

A stock 3400+ A64 will not beat an oc'd p4 at 3.5ghz except in the gaming, possibly general office use range.....

So if you are looking at gaming I think you should go the A64 route but I would look at te 3200+ chip and get the 1mb of cache and I bet you could oc it to 2.2ghz levels and 3400+ and pocket some of that change.....


OC that 3400+ and then you close those gaps fast....However I paid 180 for my chip and it does 3.5ghz so you wont beat that price performance ratio with anything other then a 3000+ and then you are paying more for possibly less, but you may not likely hit 3.5ghz as well....

 

[MichaeID]

Try some extra cooling to fix your problem

 

[DeRailur]

Originally posted by: Revo
Yeah I know it's not a huge overclock but it is possible. You said that you wouldn't count on it, why is that? I've heard of 2.4GHz OC'd to 3.5GHz so, shouldn't it be easier for a CPU at a higher stock speed?

Logic would say yes. I didn't mean that it wasn't possible or likely, I meant that I wouldn't count on it, just what I said. It is not definite that you will be able to overclock to that speed. But if you do go the p4 route I wish you the best of luck getting 3.5+

 

[justly]

Originally posted by: MichaeID

Logic would say yes. I didn't mean that it wasn't possible or likely, I meant that I wouldn't count on it, just what I said. It is not definite that you will be able to overclock to that speed. But if you do go the p4 route I wish you the best of luck getting 3.5+

Funny, I didn't see you make this statment, in fact I can't even find your other post in this thread... quite interesting.

Duvie, anyone that frequents this fourm must know how much you praise Intel and HT, but I find your comments about FH, SETI and Cinebench doing better on a P4 kind of irrelevant since Revo asked "which is the better option for a gaming/general use rig". In fact it would surprize me if anyone (besides you) would even consider changing an upgrade because of those programs.

Edit: even more interesting now that your post has been edited and it is gone... well not gone just relocated.

 

[Duvie]

Originally posted by: justly

Originally posted by: MichaeID

Logic would say yes. I didn't mean that it wasn't possible or likely, I meant that I wouldn't count on it, just what I said. It is not definite that you will be able to overclock to that speed. But if you do go the p4 route I wish you the best of luck getting 3.5+

Funny, I didn't see you make this statment, in fact I can't even find your other post in this thread... quite interesting.

Duvie, anyone that frequents this fourm must know how much you praise Intel and HT, but I find your comments about FH, SETI and Cinebench doing better on a P4 kind of irrelevant since Revo asked "which is the better option for a gaming/general use rig". In fact it would surprize me if anyone (besides you) would even consider changing an upgrade because of those programs.

Edit: even more interesting now that your post has been edited and it is gone... well not gone just relocated.

Yeah I see the quoting issue you are seeing....Michaeld removed his post and it makes your quote look like it came from DeRailur...LOL!!!

I stated the gaming fact thank you very much....When you have ppl make blanket statements of performance of a 3000+ nad not mention gaming in the same sentence you need to clarify things cause FUD and lies spread rapidly around here....I will edit my statement now to remove that....

You wouldn't see me post that stuff as much if I didn't have to constantly see ppl who don't even have a p4 with HT make claims about shite they don't even know about...The lies and mistruths from amd fans in here is epidemic..Trust me...i will not apologize for keeping it accurate cause newbies and ppl pop in from time to time and may get an incorrect impression....

I am not a fanboy as I am talking about and athlon64 as possibly my next upgrade...Just tired of the crap from AMD users....


Edit: well you don't frequent video encoding sites or distributed computing sites much, huh??? POV-Ray and cinebench program specifically maybe not, but it gives you a feel of area the cpu performs well in which is raytracing and CAD based applications...Also Many FH users with the newer clients get great production out of P4's and very well would want a chip that can run in HT and get more WU's done...Those guys are fanatical about every second of cpu time.....Encoding apps....Just because this is a gaming fanboy site doesn't mean many many ppl use their pcs for more productive work (yeah take that as a jab gamers!!! ) I would hope someone looking at a new computer who uses multimedia apps would like to know how it does in mpeg2 encoding apps like TMPGenc, Pinacle, XMPEG w/ Divx, etc that I run....

 

[Dutchmaster420]

an oc from 2.8 to 3.5 should be quite easy....i currently have an intel p4 2.6 oced at 3.2 stock and im verry happy with it but i dont play games often or at all....the athlon quite simply kills the p4 in gaming so if your a hard core gamer go with this and a nice 9800XT and youll be set!

 

[Dutchmaster420]

an oc from 2.8 to 3.5 should be quite easy....i currently have an intel p4 2.6 oced at 3.2 stock and im verry happy with it but i dont play games often or at all....the athlon quite simply kills the p4 in gaming so if your a hard core gamer go with this and a nice 9800XT and youll be set!


ps: ive seen this topic wayyyy 2 many times!

 

[Jeff7181]

Duvie, I'm a little surprised you still get caught up in these debates. I realize you're trying to inform the misinformed/uninformed... but I don't see why. People have an opinion formed before they ever post a thread like this, and if your opinion doesn't parallel their's, pointless, juvenile arguments start.

As for the origional question ("which is the better option for a gaming/general use rig between the following two")... look here... and here... and here... and here... and here... and here... and here... and here... and here... and here... and here... and here... and here... and here... and here... and here... and here... and here... and here... and here... and here... and everything here... simple searching for 5 minutes turned up these. If you use your brain a bit, and possibly a calculator, you can estimate the performance gain of a 3.5 Ghz P4 over 3.2 Ghz P4.

 

[Revo]

Duvie, I'm a little surprised you still get caught up in these debates. I realize you're trying to inform the misinformed/uninformed... but I don't see why. People have an opinion formed before they ever post a thread like this, and if your opinion doesn't parallel their's, pointless, juvenile arguments start.

Nah not really Jeff I am really listening to what everyone has to say that the reason why I posted here in the first place, to listen to everyones views. Anyway I digress, the reason I am leaning towards the P4 solution is due to it being a great overclocker. I am pretty sure that a P4 2.8C could reach a speed of 3.5GHz but I'm not quite sure an A64 3200+ could get up to 2.2GHz or over. Moreover, I belive that the P4 @ 3.5GHz would be just as fast, give or take than the A64 3400+ (or A64 3200+ @2.2GHz). If anyone can convince me that it is easy to overclock the A64 3200+ to around 2.2 - 2.4GHz then I would probably opt for the AMD solution but, from what I read on the net the A64 is a bitch to overclock as the integrated memory controller soon maxes out. Also, does the price of an A64 3200+ or 3400+ warrant such an upgrade IF a P4 @ 3.5GHz can keep up more or less? That is there isn't a MASSIVE difference between the two like there was between the Athlon XP3200+ and P4 3.2GHz? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Jeff7181]

It's never smart to buy the latest and greatest. Just ask the A64 3200 owners who paid $450 for their CPU which dropped almost 50% in price overnight.

How the 3200 overclocks is more dependant on the motherboard and chipset, not really the CPU itself (including the memory controller). From what I've read, 2.2 Ghz isn't hard to reach unless you have a crappy motherboard/chipset.

I wouldn't recommend buying anything right now. Socket 939 is coming, the nForce3 250 is coming, the Sis 755 is coming (in volume). I DEFINATELY wouldn't recommend buying a Prescott if they're much more expensive than a P4C since the first Prescott's won't be all that much better than an equally clocked P4C from what everyone's been saying. The future of the Prescott lies in socket 775 (or is it 755, oh well), just like the future of the Athlon-64 lies in socket 939.

I often tell people to wait to make a new purchase, and some people say if you keep waiting for the next greatest thing you'll never buy anything. That's true to a point, but all those new AMD features I mentioned will be here in a matter of a couple months. As far as the new socket for the Prescott, I don't remember exactly, I think I remember hearing this fall. Either way... unless Intel has something up their sleeve, the Prescott won't be THAT big of an improvement right away... the big deal with the prescott seems to be SSE3 and higher clock speeds.

How'd I get sucked in?

 

[sandorski]

Unless you have the P4 at 3.5ghz already, you are better off going for the A64 3400+. The reason is that it exists and will perform(at stock speeds) roughly the same as the P4@3.5. The P4@3.5ghz may or may not exist though, it depends on the luck of the draw.

 

[Revo]

Thanks for all your comments y'all! So, from what I understand a P4 2.8GHz OC'd to 3.5GHz would be approximately equal in all round performance to a A64 3400+. However, there is that 64 bit factor still in there and it seems that the A64 would be considerabley faster in a pure 64bit environment even in comparison to a P4@3.5GHz.

I was reading some articles regarding the A64 3000+ and it seems it is roughly comparible with the 3400+ when OC'd. So, I was thinking what about a A64 3000+ OC'd to say around 2.2GHz (which would make it run at the same frequency as the 3400+) with memory running asynchronously. Would that be roughly equal to the P4@3.5GHz?

I'm considering what you said Jeff about holding back a few months, it makes sense.

 

[Markfw]

....When you have ppl make blanket statements of performance of a 3000+ nad not mention gaming in the same sentence you need to clarify things cause FUD and lies spread rapidly around here....

The question was gaming/general usage, and every benchmark I have seen shows a 3400 will "clean to clock of a 3.2" (to quote one site) and I have a 3000+ at stock voltage and memory at stock voltage that benches like the 3400+ and runs AT THE SAME MHZ, and cache has show to make very little difference for the Athlon64 in games. So where do you get off making statements about FUD ??
Edit, and yes my memory is running async.

 

[sugarkang]

what 64bit environment?
who knows when windows xp 64bit edition is coming out. will it ever?

unless you're on linux, the 64bit is useless.

 

[Revo]

Apparently the 64bit version of WinXP is out in 2005. Markfw how do you think your OC'd A64 would compare to a P4@3.5GHz? Also, do you think you would be able to achive that kind of OC with say PC3200 memory? The reason I ask is because that is the type I have and I don't really want to shell out more cash if I can make use of what I have already.

 

[PetNorth]

WinXP 64bit for AMD64 is out at the end of second quarter this year 2004.

 

[Markfw]

Revo, I don't really know how good it would OC on 3200 memory. That is the minimum for that chip. If you were going to OC a P4, don't you also need faster memory, since the 800 FSB quad pumped requires 200 ?

As far as how it would compare to a 3.5 ghz P4 IN GAMES, based on the best available benchmarks a 2.2 ghz Athlon64 would probably be close and I think may slightly beat the 3.5 P4. This is conjecture, but the 3200+ beats the 3.2 soundly in games, and the 3400+ is 10% faster, so ?? I also like being ready when 64bit hits. Regardless, this Athlon64 is cool, quiet, and very fast and smooth.

 

[Revo]

Well I don't think I would need faster memory as I would probably use a memory divider. However, running 1:1 would yield better performance results but would also cost hell of a lot more.

 

[justly]

Originally posted by: Duvie


I stated the gaming fact thank you very much....When you have ppl make blanket statements of performance of a 3000+ nad not mention gaming in the same sentence you need to clarify things cause FUD and lies spread rapidly around here....I will edit my statement now to remove that....

You wouldn't see me post that stuff as much if I didn't have to constantly see ppl who don't even have a p4 with HT make claims about shite they don't even know about...The lies and mistruths from amd fans in here is epidemic..Trust me...i will not apologize for keeping it accurate cause newbies and ppl pop in from time to time and may get an incorrect impression....

I realize that you "stated the gaming fact", and I agree that blanket statments are not accurate. The problem is, as I see it, that your comments don't allways clairify things, but often just reverse the spin the other way to emphasize Intels strengths. Since you edited out part of your previous post I can't make a direct quote, but I do remember you making statements such as "using the power of HT" and "make sure to get an OS that supports HT". These types of comments are not clairifing statments, they are infact the same type of deception a good salesperson would use (using discrete points that have little to no relevance in an effort to convince a person to do something they might not have done otherwise).

Trying to be accurate is fine, I have no problem with that. I do however have a problem when someone thinks so little of my resoning skills that they need to say "Trust me".

I am not a fanboy as I am talking about and athlon64 as possibly my next upgrade...Just tired of the crap from AMD users....

So, AMD users spew crap and Intel users don't?, or is it that you only feel the need to correct this crap when it benifits your point of view.

I never saw you try to correct this statement in your sticky thread about HT performance, and you've posted three times since this comment.

"Here is car analogy.

No HT is like having Corvette.

With HT is like having Corvette and minivan at same time, you go cruisin' while your wife is at the grocery store."

Are you trying to say that this comment is not crap? do you actually believe there is zero performance loss on one high performance app when a second different app is running. Shouldn't it be at least a little more like trading in the Corvette for two cars with maybe a combined higher performance (say Horse Power as an example) but less HP per car.

Edit: well you don't frequent video encoding sites or distributed computing sites much, huh??? POV-Ray and cinebench program specifically maybe not, but it gives you a feel of area the cpu performs well in which is raytracing and CAD based applications...Also Many FH users with the newer clients get great production out of P4's and very well would want a chip that can run in HT and get more WU's done...Those guys are fanatical about every second of cpu time.....Encoding apps....Just because this is a gaming fanboy site doesn't mean many many ppl use their pcs for more productive work (yeah take that as a jab gamers!!! )

Yes, you are right, I don't spend time in video encoding, or distributed computing sites. Then again I think you might have missed my point, I didn't say that people wouldn't consider a P4 because of its outstanding performance in encoding. The point I was trying to make is I dont think distributed computing is a primary reason to upgrade, it might be a concern but only after other performance concerns are met.
Also there is no need to make derogatory statements twards gamers, I am not a gamer and can easily manage this. I also manage to do productive work without encoding or running distributed computing programs so you are not helping "me" anymore than the Gamers you complain about.

I would hope someone looking at a new computer who uses multimedia apps would like to know how it does in mpeg2 encoding apps like TMPGenc, Pinacle, XMPEG w/ Divx, etc that I run....

Yea, something I can finally agree with, to bad the original poster made no mention of multimedia apps

 

[Duvie]

Originally posted by: justly

Originally posted by: Duvie


I stated the gaming fact thank you very much....When you have ppl make blanket statements of performance of a 3000+ nad not mention gaming in the same sentence you need to clarify things cause FUD and lies spread rapidly around here....I will edit my statement now to remove that....

You wouldn't see me post that stuff as much if I didn't have to constantly see ppl who don't even have a p4 with HT make claims about shite they don't even know about...The lies and mistruths from amd fans in here is epidemic..Trust me...i will not apologize for keeping it accurate cause newbies and ppl pop in from time to time and may get an incorrect impression....

I realize that you "stated the gaming fact", and I agree that blanket statments are not accurate. The problem is, as I see it, that your comments don't allways clairify things, but often just reverse the spin the other way to emphasize Intels strengths. Since you edited out part of your previous post I can't make a direct quote, but I do remember you making statements such as "using the power of HT" and "make sure to get an OS that supports HT". These types of comments are not clairifing statments, they are infact the same type of deception a good salesperson would use (using discrete points that have little to no relevance in an effort to convince a person to do something they might not have done otherwise).

Trying to be accurate is fine, I have no problem with that. I do however have a problem when someone thinks so little of my resoning skills that they need to say "Trust me".

I am not a fanboy as I am talking about and athlon64 as possibly my next upgrade...Just tired of the crap from AMD users....

So, AMD users spew crap and Intel users don't?, or is it that you only feel the need to correct this crap when it benifits your point of view.

I never saw you try to correct this statement in your sticky thread about HT performance, and you've posted three times since this comment.

"Here is car analogy.

No HT is like having Corvette.

With HT is like having Corvette and minivan at same time, you go cruisin' while your wife is at the grocery store."

Are you trying to say that this comment is not crap? do you actually believe there is zero performance loss on one high performance app when a second different app is running. Shouldn't it be at least a little more like trading in the Corvette for two cars with maybe a combined higher performance (say Horse Power as an example) but less HP per car.

Edit: well you don't frequent video encoding sites or distributed computing sites much, huh??? POV-Ray and cinebench program specifically maybe not, but it gives you a feel of area the cpu performs well in which is raytracing and CAD based applications...Also Many FH users with the newer clients get great production out of P4's and very well would want a chip that can run in HT and get more WU's done...Those guys are fanatical about every second of cpu time.....Encoding apps....Just because this is a gaming fanboy site doesn't mean many many ppl use their pcs for more productive work (yeah take that as a jab gamers!!! )

Yes, you are right, I don't spend time in video encoding, or distributed computing sites. Then again I think you might have missed my point, I didn't say that people wouldn't consider a P4 because of its outstanding performance in encoding. The point I was trying to make is I dont think distributed computing is a primary reason to upgrade, it might be a concern but only after other performance concerns are met.
Also there is no need to make derogatory statements twards gamers, I am not a gamer and can easily manage this. I also manage to do productive work without encoding or running distributed computing programs so you are not helping "me" anymore than the Gamers you complain about.

I would hope someone looking at a new computer who uses multimedia apps would like to know how it does in mpeg2 encoding apps like TMPGenc, Pinacle, XMPEG w/ Divx, etc that I run....

Yea, something I can finally agree with, to bad the original poster made no mention of multimedia apps

Take this to the PM's.....


Go talk to 1,000's of distributed computing ppl and tell them they don't think that is a reason to upgrade....

I did not make that car analogy and cannot be responsible for every persons post in that thread..he is not too far off I found in my testing...i say more like a Z28 with a honda accord (not jacked up!!)....

You go get a p4c w/ HT and dispute any of my benches or claims to date..then you can talk....



REVO,

I apologize for the thread diversion....I was making a clarificatio to a vague comment and it got blown out of proportion by a another member....