P4 Northwood and Rdram

[Jrouss]

Hello,
I trying to decide if I should to build a new system with the following core config. I prefer to save money but I will spend more for realworld performance and this chip looks to overclock real well.

Abit TH7II Raid
1.6a
2 Samsung 128 RIMMS.
Geforce2 TI 450
SB Live
IBM 40 GB
Liteon 40X12x48

Here is my is my question is it worth building this config. or shoudl I use a DDR setup? Is the RAID not necessary? I am also wondering whether this is much better than an AMD setup? Granted it has been my experience (not a slam against AMD) that Intel setups are a little less hassle. One more question, in an early post someone asks about 8 piece and 16 piece RIMMS and they talk about Samsung chips. Who uses them and are they the best for overclocking? I could use an education on RIMMS or a link to one.

 

[AndyHui]

I answered a similar question regarding RDRAM here.

In my opinion, you will get a better overclock, as well as better performance, with an 8 device RIMM.

For more information about RDRAM, please read the FAQ: What is RDRAM.

However, for the biggest overclocks, DDR SDRAM based i845D boards seem to do the best. I recommend the ASUS P4B266.

 

[timmer]

If you're looking for the best performance, then the RDRAM/Intel 850 chipset is probably the way to go. The higher overclocks go to the DDR setups, but they don't perform as fast as lower clocked RDRAM/850 combos. See this article for benchmarks, etc...

 

[Jrouss]

Thanks this is helpful, any thoughts between the Athlon and the O/C P4. I hvaen't personally run into many comparisons lately. It seems like most reviews pair same CPU vs. diffent chipsets.

 

[timmer]

The P4's run cooler and are probably a bit more stable than the AMD setups. The P4 setups are a little more money if you build based on the 850 chipset.

 

[DashK]

Be careful with the TH7 II, it doesnt ship with northwood supported bios, I know a few people that had to send them back cause they had no willamete to flash the bios with, cause their northwoods wouldn't even boot in it.

Also if you wanna overclock good, get a DDR board. RDRAM will hold you back. And if you get a good overclock and hit 2400/2700 DDR speeds it's gonna be just as good as RDRAM.

 

[tigerbait]

<< Be careful with the TH7 II, it doesnt ship with northwood supported bios, I know a few people that had to send them back cause they had no willamete to flash the bios with, cause their northwoods wouldn't even boot in it. >>


whoa

i didn't know that. So if I don't have an old P4, I can't go buy a northwood and this mobo?

 

[timmer]

As I said before, if you want PERFORMANCE, go with the 850/RDRAM setup. If you want bragging rights as to how high you can OC, then go with the DDR setup. GamePC recently had an article comparing PC - 1066 vs. DDR400 Here's the article. DashK is right however about the problem with the Abit th7II; if you don't get the newest BIOS with the board, then it's likely that you won't be able to POST. It seems that some Northwoods will boot with the older BIOS and some won't. Also, the Direct Rambus Clock Generators (DRCG) on some of the Abit & Asus 850 boards won't let you go higher than 133 mhz, so its not necessarily the RDRAM that holds you back.

 

[timmer]

Abit will send you a free BIOS chip if you call them and tell them that you have the old BIOS with a new Northwood processor and can't boot.

 

[GrumpyMan]

Yes you need the CLS chips to go higher on the RDRAM. I'm very happy with my P4T-E. I also like the better performance over o/c in general. But that's just me.

 

[Duvie]

I agree rdram is best overall performance in memory intensive programs, but haven't we seen this worn out bs argument against the amd....All of that great bandwidth and yet the rdam and i850 loose in several apps to much slower xp's....A lot of programs evidently to not care or need the bandwidth and thus rdram and it massive lead in THEORETICAl BANDWIDTH but doesn't seem to translate into real world performance....The whole story to rdram as of now and the past....

I went with the ddr setup and decided I will get the higher oc of raw cpu power and couple that with pc2700 memory and in articles I have seen that should keep me close in test to rdram....plus I get the more raw cpu power which there are apps they favor that...plus with ddr at least I am setup to jump back to an amd system at any time as I feel like it and not have to swap memory out....

 

[Jrouss]

I remeber the days when these decsions were much simpler, there many good points here. I am still wondering though, for those who have used both systems, in comparable situations is there any "realworld" reasons to spend the extra money. I do enjoy gaming so, I am interested in how my system will handle this application. I do have to admit in my experience Intel chips tend to be more durable and easier to intsall due to the fact they run cooler but, doubt I will keep a chip more that two years. This is not a knock AMD in fact I have used more AMD chips than Intel lately but, there are definately some quirks with them (not all are the chip some are the chip sets they run in), my only point is will it be more beniefical in this circumstance to go with the Northwood over an Athlon, has anyone seen an article comaparing the two? Also perhaps someone could also point me to a sight that explains what some of the benchmarks mean, I have never fully appreciated what a 3 point difference can make in the benchmarks I have viewed, so an explanation would be appreciated.
Thanks for all the advice.

 

[timmer]

Take a look here. May help you decide.

 

[Jrouss]

Very informative.
Thanks

 

[Jrouss]

What about the Epox and MSI 850 boards, are they getting succesful over Clocks with the Northwoods?

 

[mikeward]

<< Abit will send you a free BIOS chip if you call them and tell them that you have the old BIOS with a new Northwood processor and can't boot >>



Are you sure about that? I have the TH7-II and a 1.6A, but Abit didn't offer to send me a free bios. I had to pay for it (send them a check as they have no cc machine)...still haven't gotten it. You could always call them and get them to overnight you a BIOS chip. Someone on another board did that...cost him $31.00 (10 for chip and 21 for shipping). But, everyone I know that has the TH7-II loves it. As soon as I get my BIOS, I'm sure I will too

 

[timmer]

I'm sure thats what they said, but we'll see if it's really free. I gave them my address and they said that they'd send one out. They did ask for a check, but I complained and they dropped the money request. Also, you can try this place for re-programmed and new BIOS chips programmed with whatever BIOS revision you request.

 

[timmer]

Hey Jrouss, here's a few more links that might help you. HardOCP and Ace's.

 

[SHrKY]

Timmer, how'd you get them to drop the charge for the new BIOS? When I called them earlier this week they wouldn't acknowledge that it was a known problem, told me to mess with the jumpers (which obviously wouldn't work), and continued to deny that there was anything wrong with the BIOS. Only after half an hour on the phone with them did they transfer me to their "BIOS department" where they said I would need to send them a check for $12. At that point, despite the fact that the incompatible BIOS was their fault, I wasn't going to dispute the $12 with them, as they would've probably hung up on me.
Maybe they were just in a better mood when you called.
I would've RMA'd it for a P4T-E, if it weren't for the AGP/PCI locking feature.
Abit = Good hardware, bad service.:|

 

[Jrouss]

I recall calling Abit once a few years ago what a waste of a toll call. I ended up sending my board back to PCnut serveral months past the purchase date and they helped me out. Does anybody still use PCnut around here? Humphrey really ran a nice operation, I recall they were more expensive but, you always got treated right.

 

[timmer]

SHrKY, I just complained that this problem existed because they didn't make buyers aware of the Northwood incompatability problem before their purchase. I guess I got lucky.

 

[PowerEngineer]

Hhhmmm.... I'm leaning toward the TH7II-RAID/P4-1.?A combination myself, but am worried by a couple of reported problems. The first has to do with clock generator chips that may not support overclocking beyond 500 Mhz; I've been told that this shouldn't be an issue for new boards. The second is this BIOS problem several of you have reported in this thread. I hope you'll post more on your efforts to resolve this. Maybe start a thread for the TH7II?

Thanks!

 

[Jrouss]

I just started reading about the SIS 645 chipset and I am starting to consider that path with the PC 2700 ram. It looks almost as fast as Rimms and will give me the option to reuse the RAM in a different board. To me it seems the narrow choices in the 850 chipset point to a short life or perhaps an end of life coming sooner than later. Timmer you have shared some great thoughts what do you think about the SIS 645 vs. the 850? I am still vasilating, price wouldn't be different because I think I would go for the Soyo P4S Dragon, which is around the cost of the Abit TH7II w/ raid.

 

[timmer]

Jrouss head over to overclockers.com, I think you'll find the discussion interesting. Here's another good thread. I guess I'm biased towards the 850/RDRAM setup, but the SIS chipset sounds like it's almost as fast and just as stable.

 

[timmer]

PowerEngineer, I think the BIOS problem will disappear once boards with the new BIOS are in circulation. In the meantime you have to get your hands on a older 478 pin P4 or get a new BIOS chip with the correct BIOS revision. I'm not gonna swear to this, but I've been looking at the POST 29 error problem with the th7II/Northwood threads and I think it applies only to the 1.6's. I'm pretty sure that others who've said that they were able to POST were using 1.8's or 2.0's. The other thing you could do is buy an Asus P4T-E instead. If that board has the wrong BIOS, you can just jumper it so that it'll POST, then flash it. As far as the clock generator chip issue, I think there are vendors (Atacom, Outside Loop) that will check them for you. I'm not sure if those are the vendors, but I think they are. Also someone over at HardOCP forum offered to mod boards by replacing the chips for a small fee. I'll try to find the thread and post a link.