P4 die shrink

[McMullet]

What does everyone think? intel gonna do it right with the die shrink?
I personnaly think they went about the release all wrong, they shoulda waited to release the P4 with the .13 and with DDR capability... my 2 cents.

 

[Pabster]

Would have no doubt been nice, but Intel wasn't going to sit by with their meager 1GHz P3 and watch AMD blow them away. They had to get something out the door with a high MHz rating to "look" superior. The result is a castrated P4 called "Willamette"

I'm seriously hoping Northwood isn't just another die shrink.

 

[SocrPlyr]

rumor is that it will have more L1 (this one is not so sured up) and L2 (512KB) cache... other rumors say that it will add the second fpu unit like willamette was supposed to have but i doubt they'll throw that in... they need to wake up and smell the vanilla beans...

Josh

 

[CZroe]

Umm, P4 + DDR = SLOW
Everyone knows that although DDR may equal the performance of RDRAM, but it can't provide the bandwidth the P4 NEEDS from a dual-channel RDRAM bus. The P4 & it's larger less acurate pipeline is a bandwidth hog & it needs this to remain at an acceptable performance level. This is why the Via P4 chipset is so controversial. All it will do is taint the name further & show it as even slower "compared to a nearly identicle Athlon systems" that shouldn't be anywhere near similar! P4 + DDR should not ever be compared to Athlon + DDR (because the P4 is cripled when paired w/ DDR) but thanks to Via & their BULLSH* PIECE OF CRAP CHIPSETS it will be. Talk about wasting money, the already lacking chip is gonna be FORCED to perform even slower in a system it wasn't designed for while still costing a premium price. It will lose the only thing it has going for it (Stability/compatibility). Intel shouldn't allow Via to renew their liscence. I suspect they won't.

Oh, and all you AMD (And with good reason) fans:
DON'T DEFEND VIA!
Support nVidia and the nForce.
Blame Via for Intel still having a hold in the market.
Via's incompatible & buggy chipsets have only hurt AMD.
This is the only reason AMD hasn't been fully accepted in the corporate market.
This is why AMD is forced to make the AMD 760 Dual Athlon chipset themselves.
Heh, Via has known problems with SB Live!s even... The best most compatable hardware from a company so standard setting that the company's own (and old) SB16 standard still exist in virtually all sound hardware today. Go figure... I figure that they must not have even tried obvious hardware like this before a release to manufacturing...
I remember when many programs had to have "AMD/Cyrix" versions due to their incompatibilities.
Via doesn't belong in this market with theirs. They are a throw-back to those days.

 

[RGN]

When does this appear on the current roadmap?

 

[RGN]

cyber: I agree about Via. I dislike their chipsets profusly. I want a stable system. I had to go back to intel for stability reasons - and now I'm quite happy.

 

[CZroe]

I'm very happy with my Intel systems
Compatibility is the only reason I stick w/ Intel.
Edit: Not that I don't own or haven't ever owned any AMD+Via systems! I have & DO. But they are not what I consider to be "my" systems. For gaming, working, and entertaining, I use "my" Intel machines, not my "web stations" though I hope the new AMD & nVidia solutions change that.
I can't afford to waste my money on something that won't work in a standard PC compatible x86 environment, & Via is the 1st company to stay away from for it.
The AMD760 chipset sounds like an incredible deal!
I can't wait for reports on it's true compatibility & performance...
Athlon MP... That's what'll turn the tides & start true competition!

 

[Insane3D]

Oh look, the hate Via bandwagon is making it's rounds... Sure..there are absolutely no stable vis systems..riiiight...

 

[CZroe]

Actually, that's quite literally true. No "riiiight" sarchasm about it. Via stability requires that you not put in any of your own hardware!
Think about it: EVERY Via chipset has problems. Usually the same problems. Even the latest are riddled with problems. They only have a few modern chipsets, so it's not like there are a few that are exempt from this. These problems are shared in literally every Athlon/Duron motherboard produced using a Via chipset. NONE are exempt. Via ruined AMD's name with all but performance watchers and even ended a few of those relationships. Sure even Intel chipsets have problems, but the most major problem I've heard involving the P4's i850 is you simply can't have a PCI & AGP card at once for a dual display system (Performance is totally unacceptable in this setup) and that's nothing compared to a mountain of name-brand hardware that's useless in Via systems. The i440BX is truely a testament to stability & compatibility. Believe it or not but my brand new PIII 1Ghz laptop still uses it... Via has NOTHING in it's portfolio. I'd like to see your wonder motherboard that is somehow exempt from Via's flaws. You remind me of a local "I hate Intel" system vendor in my little country town (He only likes AMD because they are cheap to build). When I mention compatability problems he says "NOT in MY systems! Via is PERFECT!" like he knows some voodoo magic spell workaround that he sprinkles on his Via mobos to make them exempt. Riiiight (Sarchasm THOUROGHLY founded in this statement).

 

[Insane3D]

Your so off base that I really don't even feel like arguing. If every single Via board was not stable, they would not even be used today. What problems is the current Via chipset "riddled" with? I am aware of a problem with one soundcard that is currently not a problem anymore since the latest 4 in 1's address it. Please point out, in all your infinite wisdom, the myriad of Via problems. Please, I await your intelligent answer.

 

[damocles]

It's not a Via hate bandwagon. It's just people that know that Via makes crappy chipsets. Hopefully that will change in the future

 

[CZroe]

The problem isn't with the soundcard. It's Via's PCI bus! There's a myriad of problems right there! The 4-in-1 drivers only work in 1/3rd of the situations they are required for! So many support issues call on you to downgrade the 4-in-1 drivers or eliminate them entirely because to fix compatability with 1 sound card they break compatability with other hardware. Shows how "on a thread" compatability was in the 1st place...
Trust me, just because I hate Via doesn't mean I'm not as experienced as any other Via owner with it's problems. I own MANY systems & I quite literally have less problems with SiS! Because of my Via boards, I spend many a night on the forums at ViaHardware.com & there's plenty of my own horror stories. You are the one that sounds like an inexperienced Via owner.

PS: "My Via Boards" refers to my unimportant systems with Via components. I know better than to trust them in my Q3Arena machine (P4's actually run Q3 faster than a comparable clocked Athlon. It's an anomaly for sure but I'm thankful for it!)!

 

[ledzepp98]

ok, this thread kind of spun off in a different direction...i'll start with a comment based on the threat title:

i think intel will do something right this time...they have to. i don't think they will stand by and let amd take over...and even if the new cpu isn't all it is supposed to be, it will only get a hard rap from us enthusiasts. the other 99.9% of computer users will like the "intel inside" and ooohhhh and aaahhhh over the high mhz (now ghz) ratings. and if the new cpu is a good performer, i think the palomino will be able to at least hold its own against it.

now to the off topic part of the thread (via):

i think i am the only oe who doesn't have a problem with via (nor do i have a problem with the sblive, which is another hot topic). it's not like i have a great love for via, but i can't think of any instability or problems caused by a via chipset. my mothers computer works flawlessly with the mvp3 chipset (it's a k6-3 computer), i have had no problems with my previous t-bird setup (with the kt133/686a chipset on an epox 8kta+ mobo), nor do i have any problems with my current t-bird computer (ok, this one only has the 686b southbridge and amd761 northbridge, it's an 8k7a). also, both t-bird computers use the now infamous sblive sound card. i think a lot of people just jumped on the bandwagon of not liking via and the sblive because it was an easy target to blame for their problems...which are probably caused more by poor setup, or overclocking a tad too much. ok, i know the 686b thing was documented and admitted to, but there was a solution made available for it (although i have not experienced any of those problems). maybe i'm just wacky, but via has made some good chipsets (mainly the kt133/kt133a) and i have a feeling that the new kt266 will shine and become the standard ddr chipset. i was going to wait for the new revision but i had the upgrade bug too bad to wait. that's just my $.02, i could be wrong

 

[Insane3D]

"It's not a Via hate bandwagon. It's just people that know that Via makes crappy chipsets. Hopefully that will change in the future"

Yes it is. Many people have no porblems with Via's chipsets. Let's look at what we would have if there was no Via.


1.No PC133 (Intel didn't think we needed a new SDRAM spec because they were pushing RDRAM)
2.No Chipsets for Thunderbird Athlon's until the 760chipset came out.
3.No Athlons hitting high FSB's without a KT133A chipset. (Until AMD 760)


When AMD switched to the socket A design, what would we be using? An AMD750 Irongate board with AGP 2X, PC100, and a "Slotket"?

Why exactly are Via chipset's crap? If Via hadn't started making chipsets for the Athlon when it came out, do you think it would have even succeeded? Would we all still be using P3's @ 700mhz that cost ~$800?

 

[Insane3D]

"The problem isn't with the soundcard. It's Via's PCI bus! "

Ummm...wrong. The only soundcard that had a problem was the SBLive!. This was due to it being such a PCI bus hog. There are no fixes that say "downgrade" the 4-in1's.

"So many support issues call on you to downgrade the 4-in-1 drivers or eliminate them entirely because to fix compatability with 1 sound card they break compatability with other hardware. "

Please elaborate, oh all knowing CyberZer0, what "other hardware" has incompatibilities? I am interested to know.

"Trust me, just because I hate Via doesn't mean I'm not as experienced as any other Via owner with it's problems. I own MANY systems & I quite literally have less problems with SiS! Because of my Via boards, I spend many a night on the forums at ViaHardware.com & there's plenty of my own horror stories. You are the one that sounds like an inexperienced Via owner."

So you have never used their Athlon chipsets? That's funny how you can comment on chipset's you have never used. You must be really smart.

 

[CZroe]

About the K6-III:
That is still in the era when software commonly had "AMD" versions because of unexplained errors.
In fact, I'm sure you would notice far less unexplained lock-ups on a system that was pure "Wintel" from that era.
"Not having a problem" with Via usually just means no problems seem ramndom & unrelated to Via, but they usually are not random!!!
Via has made some good "performing" chipsets, but nothing that would ever be put into a corporate environment to cause an IT nightmare, which is exactly what would happen if it was.
When one problem occurs that's hundreds of PCs that are affected. Intel's 440BX & i815 are perfect business class systems, and Via has yet to give AMD the same advantage. Now AMD has stepped in with the 760 chipset & I hope this once & for all proves we don't need or want Via.

 

[CZroe]

1.No PC133 (Intel didn't think we needed a new SDRAM spec because they were pushing RDRAM)
Intel made the PIII w/ 133FSB! What are you talking about?!
2.No Chipsets for Thunderbird Athlon's until the 760chipset came out.
EXACTLY! That's why Via was able to associate AMD with INCOMPATIBILITY & INSTABILITY! You see? Via is to blame! Not AMD.
3.No Athlons hitting high FSB's without a KT133A chipset. (Until AMD 760)
See above.

Via isn't helping AMD push the envelope. They are making any push the riskiest possible.

The SBLive is the only soundcard with problems? I didn't limit the problem to soundcards! OBVIOUSLY the PCI bus is used for more than soundcards! Common!
I have built and used Athlons! Where do you get that idea?

This is a die-hard PC enthusiast's opinion. Not a die-hard Intel user's opinion. I happen to have a firm opinion that is founded in experience with both. I don't own only a few systems & on top of that I've built & own*ED* far more than what I am currently using. As far as you know I'm a system builder... I build and maintain all my friends AMD systems for sure

Getting back to work...
Replies & edits will have to wait a while...

 

[Insane3D]

You're answer about the PC133 memory convinced me you do not know what you are talking about. I have already wasted too much time arguing with someone who doesn't listen to the truth. I'm done...

 

[Wingznut]

But cyber... Insane is asking for examples of other hardware incompatibilities. What are some of them, other than the SBLive?

 

[damocles]

The 686b bug went well beyond just the SB Live. The question is how much of it was Via's fault and how much can be blamed on motherboard makers

There also 'appears' to be problems with the Via/762 combo

Personally i have no doubts that Via forced intel's hand re: the technology envelope

 

[CZroe]

Intel officially reversed their opinion on that. How do you explain 133FSB PIIIs & the i815? However, I believe that there was no need for a new SDRAM spec. The PIII needed DDR. Sure, it still needs a higher Mhz frequency, duh, but that's not a new "spec." Intel only tried to force RDRAM because it wanted to smooth the transition to the P4 platform that relied on it. DDR SDRAM did not exist at the time, & 133Mhz memory wasn't available in good yeilds yet. Also, RDRAM was faster than any proposed DDR memory back then, and if it had cought on like they'd hoped, you would see low prices on RDRAM today like they promised & the DDR vs RDRAM argument wouldn't be valid. Shows you don't know what you're talking about Mr 3D.

Wingznut PEZ:
See www.viahardware.com
It may be biased in favor of Via, but they aren't ashamed to admit it's problems!
Very respectable in the Via community. That's why this other guy that claims Via is flawless in some situations isn't part of it.

 

[jeffrey]

"Umm, P4 + DDR = SLOW
Everyone knows that although DDR may equal the performance of RDRAM, but it can't provide the bandwidth the P4 NEEDS from a dual-channel RDRAM bus"

A dual channel DDR PC2100 bus would probably compare within a few percent of a PC800 system and might even prove faster than a PC600 system.

 

[Insane3D]

"The PIII needed DDR"

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!

 

[CZroe]

Insane:
OK, so now you are saying that DDR being better than 133 SDRAM for a PIII is funny?

jeffrey:
You'll see in the benchmarks. DDR WILL be close in performance to PC800 RDRAM, but NOT in a P4 environment. The P4 NEEDS RDRAM and it will be smoked by the Athlon systems in the same environment.

 

[Insane3D]

The P3 was designed for SDRAM. DDR on a P3 gave almost no improvement. It doesn't matter though because you know more than I could ever hope to...