P3 667mhz vs 1ghz Duron

[Bozz]

Originally posted by: imthetechguy

i'd say the duron. its a morgan core(i think), so it has SSE. it the P3 is katmai, no contest duron is faster. if the P3 is coppermine, its closer, but i still think morgan duron is faster

All 1ghz Durons are Morgan core, hence a crippled Palimino core...he plainly said it's a P3 667, which can be nothing other than a Coppermine...I guess we all are forgetting the one important thing here...the P3 667 is running 133mhz FSB STOCK, whereas the Duron is running 100mhz FSB STOCK...or are all of you subscribers to that "faster clock speed means better" theory?...

Mr techguy, I assume we're in la-la land like yourself because last time I checked, all K7 AMD processors seemed to use an Alpha EV6 bus, now if memory serves me right I'm certain this bus is double pumped which means the duron has a 200MHz FSB. This will hand out a thrashing to the P3, assuming of course, we're using DDR SDRAM.

I'm looking for a word however I can't seem to think of it.

Ahhhh, got it!

own3d



--------edit:

Oh yeah, The 1.3GHz Willamette P4 has a 400MHz FSB, it should FLYYYYYYYYY!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[imthetechguy]

For you and your freind who posted about the same thing, above you...show me where that "double-pumped" thingie equates into anything, outside of memory speed?...ah, I thought so...

 

[AIWGuru]

Originally posted by: imthetechguy
For you and your freind who posted about the same thing, above you...show me where that "double-pumped" thingie equates into anything, outside of memory speed?...ah, I thought so...

WTF are you talking about? Seriously, you're not making sense. The FSB on the duron is faster. Period.
The Duron is faster. Period. In fact, this morgan core is the clock for clock equivellent of a Thunderbird Athlon. Now, unless, you're going to tell me that a 666mhz P3 is faster than a 1ghz thunderbird athlon, please stop.

 

[IPLaw]

The Duron has 192K total cache.

While technically the Duron supports a 200 fsb, in the case of plain SDR ram, that is only between the chipset and the cpu. The effective bandwidth is same as a 100 fsb bus. Both my old P3 600 and Duron 700 had about the same effective bandwidth, which was about 1000 Mb/s, as measured by a prior version of Sandra, which only measured pure integer performance (as opposed to using enhanced instructions like mmx).

 

[Bozz]

Originally posted by: imthetechguy
For you and your freind who posted about the same thing, above you...show me where that "double-pumped" thingie equates into anything, outside of memory speed?...ah, I thought so...

I edited my post twice so I technically cheated

I added the bit "assuming we're using DDR SDRAM"

 

[AIWGuru]

Originally posted by: IPLaw
The Duron has 192K total cache.

While technically the Duron supports a 200 fsb, in the case of plain SDR ram, that is only between the chipset and the cpu. The effective bandwidth is same as a 100 fsb bus. Both my old P3 600 and Duron 700 had about the same effective bandwidth, which was about 1000 Mb/s, as measured by a prior version of Sandra, which only measured pure integer performance (as opposed to using enhanced instructions like mmx).

Unfortunately, this isn't correct. While the FSB isn't synchronous it will extract the full bandwidth of PC133 (and PC1600.) What you were seeing is:
1-a sptifire core. Not relevant here.
2-an ancient chipset. Athlon/duron chipsets of this (spirfire - not morgan) time (particularly from VIA) had very bad memory controllers.

As this review shows, the morgan 1ghz duron hangs with a 1ghz thunderbird athlon. There is no question here. Unless you're a blind fanboy and think that a 666mhz P3 is faster than a 1ghz thunderbird athlon, you've really got no point.

 

[imthetechguy]

I edited my post twice so I technically cheated

I added the bit "assuming we're using DDR SDRAM"

LOL, you are correct, sir...please try to help me explain that to AIWGuru...

 

[AIWGuru]

Originally posted by: imthetechguy

I edited my post twice so I technically cheated

I added the bit "assuming we're using DDR SDRAM"

LOL, you are correct, sir...please try to help me explain that to AIWGuru...

He's actually NOT correct. God. The FSB will still be double pumped regardless of whether there is PC133 or PC1600. It will still use the bandwith of SD133 by taking double the data on each clock cycle. The equivelent of 200Mhz. Of course, it's not synchronous so there is a latency issue but it still gets all of it. Again, your cause is hopeless. Suggesting that a 666mhz P3 is as fast as a 1ghz duron makes you look like a fool. You can hang on to this strawman argument as long as you want but it doesn't help to prove your point.

 

[IPLaw]

Although the connection between the CPU and chipset is double pumped, the chipset-memory connection cannot exceed the bandwidth made available by the memory. Thus, even on my K7S5A, which has about the best AMD SDR chipset your're going to get, the integer still benches 1000 Mb/s integer using SDR and a Morgan core duron. Thus, the "full bandwidth" of SDR PC 133 is exactly that, 133 - not 266 unless you are using DDR.

 

[Bozz]

Originally posted by: imthetechguy

I edited my post twice so I technically cheated

I added the bit "assuming we're using DDR SDRAM"

LOL, you are correct, sir...please try to help me explain that to AIWGuru...

But AIWGuru is correct too, unless you had your PC133 SDRAM mobo locked to use synchronous (same CPU/RAM speed), the chipset will deliver the full PC133 speed (1066mb/sec) to the DDR FSB of the duron. Some chipsets could also deliver PC-150 and PC-166 speeds with suitable SDRAM, naturally working asynchronously (different CPU FSB and RAM clock rates)

 

[Bozz]

Originally posted by: AIWGuru

Originally posted by: imthetechguy

I edited my post twice so I technically cheated

I added the bit "assuming we're using DDR SDRAM"

LOL, you are correct, sir...please try to help me explain that to AIWGuru...

He's actually NOT correct. God. The FSB will still be double pumped regardless of whether there is PC133 or PC1600. It will still use the bandwith of SD133 by taking double the data on each clock cycle. The equivelent of 200Mhz. Of course, it's not synchronous so there is a latency issue but it still gets all of it. Again, your cause is hopeless. Suggesting that a 666mhz P3 is as fast as a 1ghz duron makes you look like a fool. You can hang on to this strawman argument as long as you want but it doesn't help to prove your point.

Lets elaborate:

Asynchronous - Different speed between the CPU FSB and the RAM (and the AGP and PCI buses etc etc etc)

Synchronous - Identical speed between CPU FSB and RAM - IE PC133 with EB revision P3-667

 

[AIWGuru]

OH LOOK! Another 1ghz Duron review
In this review, you can see that the memory bandwith matches the speed of the 1gh thunderbird athlon because the double pumped 200mhz FSB is still faster than PC133 (even if it isn't synchronous)
In this review, you can (once again) see the 1ghz duron hanging with a 1ghz Athlon (which has a 266mhz FSB)

 

[AIWGuru]

Originally posted by: Bozz

Originally posted by: imthetechguy

I edited my post twice so I technically cheated

I added the bit "assuming we're using DDR SDRAM"

LOL, you are correct, sir...please try to help me explain that to AIWGuru...

But AIWGuru is correct too, unless you had your PC133 SDRAM mobo locked to use synchronous (same CPU/RAM speed), the chipset will deliver the full PC133 speed (1066mb/sec) to the DDR FSB of the duron. Some chipsets could also deliver PC-150 and PC-166 speeds with suitable SDRAM, naturally working asynchronously (different CPU FSB and RAM clock rates)

THANK YOU!
Man....
Even if this weren't the case, comparing FSBs on different architecures is kind of pointless (look at the 800mhz FSB P4 to the 333mhz Athlon.) The final performance of the chip overall speaks for itself.
Also thanks for elaborating on the definition of synchronous and non-synchronous.
Regardless of the technicality of how it gets done, the duron uses the full bandwidth of PC133 just like hte P3. It is, however, a much faster chip with a 333mhz clock speed advantage and a morgan core. Who could possibly argue otherwise?!

 

[imthetechguy]

But AIWGuru is correct too, unless you had your PC133 SDRAM mobo locked to use synchronous (same CPU/RAM speed), the chipset will deliver the full PC133 speed (1066mb/sec) to the DDR FSB of the duron. Some chipsets could also deliver PC-150 and PC-166 speeds with suitable SDRAM, naturally working asynchronously (different CPU FSB and RAM clock rates)

That is true, but some boards did not have that capability...I believe that only came about with the "A" revision of the KT133 chipset...it's been so long, I need to refresh a bit...either way, the performance difference between a 1 gig Duron and a P3 667 is really negligible, as I plainly stated in my initial post...

 

[IPLaw]

OH LOOK!

Processor: AMD Duron 1 GHz (200MHz FSB/133MHz SDRAM Frequency)

Processor: AMD Athlon 1 GHz (200MHz FSB/133MHz SDRAM Frequency)

In that review, they are using an Athlon-B, which uses the same 200 fsb as the duron. Thus, it's no wonder the duron is "hanging" with the Atlhon - they use the same 200 fsb and PC133 memory.

 

[Brian48]

P3 667mhz vs 1ghz Duron

Duron.

 

[AIWGuru]

Originally posted by: imthetechguy

But AIWGuru is correct too, unless you had your PC133 SDRAM mobo locked to use synchronous (same CPU/RAM speed), the chipset will deliver the full PC133 speed (1066mb/sec) to the DDR FSB of the duron. Some chipsets could also deliver PC-150 and PC-166 speeds with suitable SDRAM, naturally working asynchronously (different CPU FSB and RAM clock rates)

That is true, but some boards did not have that capability...I believe that only came about with the "A" revision of the KT133 chipset...it's been so long, I need to refresh a bit...either way, the performance difference between a 1 gig Duron and a P3 667 is really negligible, as I plainly stated in my initial post...

The performance difference IS NOT NEGLIGABLE! Look at the reviews! The performance difference between the 1ghz athlon, the 1.2ghz P3, and the Duron 1hz is negligable. The difference between a 666mhz P3 and a duron 1ghz IS NOT NEGLIGABLE! The duron is 150% as fast or 50% faster. That's a pretty big difference!

 

[AIWGuru]

Originally posted by: IPLaw
OH LOOK!

Processor: AMD Duron 1 GHz (200MHz FSB/133MHz SDRAM Frequency)

Processor: AMD Athlon 1 GHz (200MHz FSB/133MHz SDRAM Frequency)

In that review, they are using an Athlon-B, which uses the same 200 fsb as the duron. Thus, it's no wonder the duron is "hanging" with the Atlhon - they use the same 200 fsb and PC133 memory.

You're right. And they hang with the P3 very well. They all use PC133 to its full advantage.

 

[Cerb]

Originally posted by: Booster

Originally posted by: AIWGuru
Well the duron can run on faster chipsets (even Nforce 2) and can support DDR. Regardless, the duron is about equivalent to the P3 (CuMine) clock for clock so 1Ghz vs 666mhz is no competition. The duron is faster.

Sorry, I have to disagree. I had a Duron 700 and it had the same speed as a PII-450 (seriously). On the other hand, a P3-600 beat the crap out of my Duron 700 in every area (and I'm not talking synthetic benchmarks). By and large, Duron is very slow. There's no way it's equivalent to a P3 with 256KB of cache. Yes, Athlon was about 3% faster than a Cumine P3 clock for clock, but it's not the case with a Duron, of course. And when someone looks at synthetic benchmarks and says that a Duron is faster than a P4 I can't help laughing. Put them side by side and see the difference.

I seriously don't think you had them set up properly. A Duron will be even clock-per-cock. Application loads are a little slower, but that's about it. Give Win2k or XP 512MB RAM (256 min), and you'd be hard-pressed to tell a difference (unless you're on pre-KT266A VIA board and have some SBs around ).

Edit: Model M being cleaned (added missing letters due to spongy KB)

 

[Cerb]

Originally posted by: todpod
Thanks for the input, p3 for htpc then .


with 128 meg ram, win 98 or win2k?

Get 128 or 256 more.
With 128 Win98, but i you want i to really run, and all the time, Win2k...but 128 wil dog it down.

 

[AIWGuru]

Originally posted by: Cerb

Originally posted by: todpod
Thanks for the input, p3 for htpc then .


with 128 meg ram, win 98 or win2k?

Get 128 or 256 more.
With 128 Win98, but i you want i to really run, and all the time, Win2k...but 128 wil dog it down.

Yes. With win2k 256MB is highly recommended (and the duron)

 

[MDE]

The Duron will beat the PIII hands down.

 

[sandorski]

Duron ownage, PIII Anti-Christ spankage.

 

[Ionizer86]

Yes, the Morgan Duron (1.0 and above) was decent because its new enhancements such as its prefetch algorithm, SSE, etc, brought it to about the performance of a Tbird 1.0B. Less cache but more other performance enhancements, along with slightly less power consumption than a Spitfire Duron (600 to 950).

 

[todpod]

So that settles it. The duron will stay in the main rig (for now ) and the P3 will be the htpc running w2k. I'l try trading on the FS/FT forum for a little more ram and away we go.