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P&N Community Poll (mod-sponsored): Renewal Vote on "No Personal Attacks/Insult" Rule

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Permanently Adopt The "No Insults and No Personal Attacks" Policy?

  • Yes

  • No


Results are only viewable after voting.
The only reason the "no insults" rule for P&N was adopted was because the community said it was a priority.

If the community has now changed its mind and it is no longer a priority then that means the mods will be less concerned with responding to reports of insults and personal attacks on those days that we are otherwise swamped with higher priority (defined by the subforum communities we server) member issues.
I was OK with the current "no insults" policy until I saw what happened to JD50. The line between what is acceptable and what is not is just too subjective.

There are some posters here who live to call others idiots if you disagree with them...the new rule ended that bs; however, it inhibited many others much too much in expressing their opinions. Walking on eggshells is not fun.
 
I don't generally consider myself to be a stupid person, and I have to admit that at this point I don't even understand what is going on here. 🙂 From the plain language of the poll question, it does sound like people are being asked whether they support or oppose a rule regarding personal insults, not one regarding prioritization of enforcement.

Perhaps it would be wise to start over with a new poll that is more clearly expressed?
 
I don't generally consider myself to be a stupid person, and I have to admit that at this point I don't even understand what is going on here. 🙂 From the plain language of the poll question, it does sound like people are being asked whether they support or oppose a rule regarding personal insults, not one regarding prioritization of enforcement.

Perhaps it would be wise to start over with a new poll that is more clearly expressed?

Yeah, it doesn't seem like there's anything near a consensus about what is going on. People are voting for different things. Even though I voted yes it seems clear to me that certain people are voting no because they don't like the specific implementation of the rule even though they might like the general idea of the rule. I don't think anyone wants less consistent implementation. I think pretty much everyone was under the impression that this was going to be about whether we had the rule or not.
 
But on those days in which we are not swamped, we will still respond to reported posts about personal attacks and insults, just as the troopers will still pull someone over going 90mph in a 55mph even if they aren't usually patrolling that section of the highway on a day to day basis. It will be less consistent, but the community is saying this isn't a priority to them, consistent or not, the community wants the moderators to prioritize its time enforcing other parts of the forum rules.

Well, the machinery and infrastructure has already been developed, is in place, and operates smoothly in the technical forums.

We do not allow inflammatory posting, including the wholesale characterization and denigration of stereotypes and groups of individuals.

Go to the technical forums and throw down a "AMD fanboys are 'tards!" and you are going to get infracted.

But here in P&N that kind of juvenile attitude and mentality prevails, only the P&N community substitutes religion and political affiliation for brand loyalty (catholics and libtards instead of AMD fanboyz or Nvidiots, etc).
This is what we're voting against. Unlike preferring AMD to nVidia preferring child slavery and exploitation to reasonable child safety laws is not a "Matter of taste" but a direct reflection of an inherently fucked up attitude on the part of the person arguing for exploitation of children.

You make clear in this post not that insulting republicans or democrats isn't yet against the rules here in P&N, but rather that this vote is about "adoption of the full monte "no insults" rule as was originally voted on by the community back in March."

I assume you want to reflect in your moderation how the community would like to be governed.* In this case we don't like logical fallacies (clearly) but when someone is being a dumb-ass we want to be able to call them on their bullshit. If someone want's to argue that a mindless opinion is caused by a warped liberarian/facist/communist perspective, then we don't think someone should be infracted for it.

See how innocuous DMCohen's recent point garnering response was? Plenty of reason to ban him, but saying negative things about a political party is not one of them; from the perspective of what the community would like as standards.


*It's your sand-box; so if you want to unilaterally define the terms of play I think most of us would respect that fully.
 
Here's a post I just made that, under this rule, would be 'insulting'.

I understand an argument from causation; Though your inability, or unwillingness, to accept the potential complexity of the situation shows that you may not fully appreciate the depth of the conversation.

To use your race-car-driver metaphor.

It's like arguing that armor-all causes health problems; evidence is in the increase in health problems among race-car drivers.

You counter Armor-all does NOT cause cancer: FACT!

I say: well no, but it is linked with increases in OCPD and there is a good theoretical reason to think that it would cause OCPD.

You counter: yea, but race-car drivers inhale tire-smoke, car-exhaust and lots of other shit; so OCPD is caused by something other than armor-all.

If you think that pointing to potential third-causes counters a strong theoretical argument you've lost the ability to engage in reasoned discourse. Given the strength of the correlation and given strong theoretical reasoning surrounding why the correlation may be causal; you must now not only offer an equal or better theoretical third-factor, but you must show that they are mutually exclusive.

That is: just because the race-car driver breaths tire-smoke doesn't mean armor-all isn't doing something to him; you need evidence that there is no effect of armor-all outside of the effect that you would expect from tire-smoke alone.

Such is where the conversation is at: not that we don't know if diet soda is correlated with diabetes, but that while other factors are part of why diet-soda drinkers get diabetes nothing has been presented to show that those factors exclude diet soda from having an impact. This is problematic for the 'diet is fine' argument because of the theoretical link between tricking your brain into thinking it had something sweet (thus releasing insulin without sugar for it to process) and diabetes.

Strong theory is the basis upon which we assume causation until we have experimental evidence to the contrary or better theory.

I called the guy stupid (or maybe ignorant) twice; but his stupidity/ignorance was NOT a function of me insulting him, it was an observation of a non-obvious point of misconception.

I also didn't mean anything 'rude' by what I sad; but instead wanted to argue against the irrational limitations placed on the argument. Questioning these faulty assumptions is 'insulting' because it implies (says blatantly) that he's the kind of person that holds to faulty assumptions.

What if this was a constant error made by a particular group? Say i argue "further this lack of depth is endemic among Ron Paul supporters".

My DH6 discourse has embedded within it a valuable insight regarding the shared, wrong, assumptions of a group that could be interpreted at the DH2 level.

Usually "your neo-cons are fuck-tarded" is the retort; but the solidification of this rule places reasoned discourse and "dhur, you people is stupid" on the same level. If the limited cops on the highway see me going 60 instead of 55 they can give me a pass because they've got bigger fish to fry; If we put up radar-cameras along every mile then marginal cases will garner penalties to the point that people will be afraid to drive 50, lest they let their foot onto the accelerator and go a few over.

I already risk being rear-ended regularly because I stop for yellow lights; I don't need to risk being rear-ended by some butt-hurt dweller that can't string a cogent thought together in defense of his own positions.
 
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I don't generally consider myself to be a stupid person, and I have to admit that at this point I don't even understand what is going on here. 🙂 From the plain language of the poll question, it does sound like people are being asked whether they support or oppose a rule regarding personal insults, not one regarding prioritization of enforcement.

Perhaps it would be wise to start over with a new poll that is more clearly expressed?

It's more complex than it appears. It's best left as the poll is worded. I'll explain my thoughts as time permits.
 
GrahamsHierarchyofDisagreement.png

Basically I thought the vote was to change 'Acceptable Only in OT' to 'Acceptable Only in OT & PN'

I can live with that. I wasn't thinking that was what was being voted on, but if the community wants DH0 to be allowed then we can certainly accomodate that given that we already do in OT.
 
If the rule expired on June 6th, why are people still receiving infractions?

Good question, someone should be fired! Heads will roll for this, the consequences will never be the same 🙂

pm me or post in mod-disc and I will reverse the infarction if you received it post June 6th.
 
GrahamsHierarchyofDisagreement.png

I can live with that. I wasn't thinking that was what was being voted on, but if the community wants DH0 to be allowed then we can certainly accomodate that given that we already do in OT.

I would pay a small monthly fee ($5/$50 a year) to post in a sub-forum of P&N that had moderation that strictly enforced DH4 +
 
Questions regarding DH0, does this mean all types of insults are allowed? For example, can I say Poster ZYX is a baby raping lovely human? Can I insult a moderator too, since the mods are also normal users? If a mod cannot be insulted, can the mod still insult others?

I know swearing is allowed, except in thread titles and in signatures, so I would expect I can call someone a cock-sucker, if I were the type to use such a term.. Is this correct?

Just wanting clarifications prior to receiving an infraction for doing something I thought was allowed.
 
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Question regarding DH0, does this mean all types of insults are allowed? For example, can I say Poster ZYX is a baby raping lovely human? Can I insult a moderator too, since the mods are also normal users? If a mod cannot be insulted, can the mod still insult others?

Calling someone a baby raping lovely human is not exactly allowed in OT; grevious previous insults are not a function of an argument. Saying, on the other hand, that someone's POV allows for homosexual fornication with a baby... well you can't argue with facts.

Referencing a moderator to argue with the moderation is a mod-call out. If you want to argue with mods modding then bring it to mod forum; if you wan to call someone posting as a member a baby raping lovely human you should know that people get infractions for wild insults. If you want to explain that toker's a fucking loon because maharajah fucks with the "no shit Ron Paul is an iditot!" part of the brain... like I said, facts are facts.


(am I reading this properly?)
 
Calling someone a baby raping lovely human is not exactly allowed in OT; grevious previous insults are not a function of an argument. Saying, on the other hand, that someone's POV allows for homosexual fornication with a baby... well you can't argue with facts.

This is what I am trying to understand - just what IS allowed and what is not allowed wrt personal insults. If insults are allowed, are we bound by no references to homosexual acts? No references to illegal acts? I am sure there is a line somewhere that is not being stated but we must not cross anyway without having any idea where that line is to be found - ensuring that some will cross it without having any idea of what they did.

Referencing a moderator to argue with the moderation is a mod-call out. If you want to argue with mods modding then bring it to mod forum; if you wan to call someone posting as a member a baby raping lovely human you should know that people get infractions for wild insults. If you want to explain that toker's a fucking loon because maharajah fucks with the "no shit Ron Paul is an iditot!" part of the brain... like I said, facts are facts.


(am I reading this properly?)

Not talking about a mod's moderating, but the poster who also happens to be a mod. Since mods can post as regular users, we should be able to treat them as such, which the obvious exception of talking about something they have moderated. If we cannot insult a mod, then a mod cannot insult us either.

For example (disclosure - I do not believe this, it is merely an example): Idontcare must be a dog rapist because only dog rapists think the way he does. From what I understand, if Idontcare was not a mod, this would now be allowable. I am trying to ascertain if this is allowable even with him being a mod. If it is not allowable to be done to him, can he sit there and type insults against me while I cannot send them back, or is he then also not allowed to use insults against others (since they cannot be used against him).

Also, if insults are allowed, then insults are allowed..and wild insults are still insults. If wild insults gain infractions, then insults are not allowed, but the chart clearly says insults are allowed. The chart does not leave room for a "I do not agree with your insult, so you get infracted for it" realm.
 
This is what I am trying to understand - just what IS allowed and what is not allowed wrt personal insults. ...
Why? Stop scheming on how to push the boundaries and instead concentrate on behaving yourself. That the "No insults" rule has been abandoned doesn't mean we should go out of our way to be assholes. The rules set the floor for acceptable behavior, not the ceiling.
 

Are you really so stupid as to be unable to understand the clearly written words you actually quoted? Do you want me to explain it to you, or are you still in the "I refuse to learn" mindset?

Stop scheming on how to push the boundaries and instead concentrate on behaving yourself. That the "No insults" rule has been abandoned doesn't mean we should go out of our way to be assholes. The rules set the floor for acceptable behavior, not the ceiling.

You need to start by following your own advice. Stop being a boor while you are at it. Your schtick is tired and needs replaced.

Since you really are most likely still in the "I refuse to learn" mindset, this will probably be ignored by you, but I will post it anyway. What is the purpose of a speed limit sign? It is to show the max speed you can travel without getting into trouble. We all understand this is a good thing. Your view is that people should NOT worry about pushing the boundaries by wanting to know what the speed limit is and instead try to drive as slow as they can. While this may work for you and a bunch of asian women, most people want to know what the limit is so they can avoid crossing it and getting into trouble.
 
This is what I am trying to understand - just what IS allowed and what is not allowed wrt personal insults. If insults are allowed, are we bound by no references to homosexual acts? No references to illegal acts? I am sure there is a line somewhere that is not being stated but we must not cross anyway without having any idea where that line is to be found - ensuring that some will cross it without having any idea of what they did.

Good rule of thumb, if you have to stop and question whether you are crossing the line, you've already passed beyond the realm of good taste and appropriate conduct and you probably don't need to hit the "Submit Reply" button.
 
Good rule of thumb, if you have to stop and question whether you are crossing the line, you've already passed beyond the realm of good taste and appropriate conduct and you probably don't need to hit the "Submit Reply" button.


Ah, but there is the rub. Some have already said they feel no holds barred insults are just fine. They would not hesitate to say someone is a baby rapist. Others find calling someone an ass to be over the line. With such a wide range of views of what is and is not acceptable, how is anyone to know what actually IS acceptable?

I do not ask for rules clarifications just for myself, but for everyone. Just because I ask if something is allowable does not mean I plan on doing it. Karl brought up a good point, can you attack someone's religion as an insult? How about someone's race? These are common insults you can hear in the streets today, so are they allowed? I do not have any plans on calling anyone a beloved patriot or a beloved patriot (for example), but it would be good to know if it allowable. If not, then someone doing it needs to be reported. If it is, then reporting it can gain you an infraction for trolling the mods.
 
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