P-51 Mustang Crash in Galveston Today :(

[spacejamz]

Zeroes raped us early until we decided to stop playing their game and got into energy fighting. It is difficult for a Zero to keep up with a corsair or F6F in energy fighting.

The Corsairs and Hellcats were newer fighters that signficantly outperformed the older Wildcats and Tomahawks (which were greatly outclassed by the Zero which was faster and more manueverable because it offered no protection to the pilot) that the Air Force/Navy were using at the start of the war....

 

[GagHalfrunt]

Zeroes raped us early until we decided to stop playing their game and got into energy fighting. It is difficult for a Zero to keep up with a corsair or F6F in energy fighting.

Tactics had little to do with it at that stage. When the war started they had GREAT pilots and we had the F4F Wildcat which the Zero outclassed in every way. The Hellcat and Corsair were specifically designed to outfight the Zero and by the time they entered service many of the best Japanese pilots had been lost through attrition. We filled the skies with better planes and better pilots. We could have been using WWI biplanes and overwhelmed them with superior numbers.

 

[Genx87]

Tactics had little to do with it at that stage. When the war started they had GREAT pilots and we had the F4F Wildcat which the Zero outclassed in every way. The Hellcat and Corsair were specifically designed to outfight the Zero and by the time they entered service many of the best Japanese pilots had been lost through attrition. We filled the skies with better planes and better pilots. We could have been using WWI biplanes and overwhelmed them with superior numbers.

I dont think it would matter if the Japanese had their best pilots in 43-44. These planes outclassed the zero in every way that mattered.

 

[rudeguy]

Tactics had little to do with it at that stage. When the war started they had GREAT pilots and we had the F4F Wildcat which the Zero outclassed in every way. The Hellcat and Corsair were specifically designed to outfight the Zero and by the time they entered service many of the best Japanese pilots had been lost through attrition. We filled the skies with better planes and better pilots. We could have been using WWI biplanes and overwhelmed them with superior numbers.

Maybe I'm missing something...

The Japanese lost their good fighters because they got killed in combat. Wouldn't that be a result of better technology, planes, planning...not just "attrition"?

Their pilots didn't retire to the Bahamas. Our guys shot them out of the sky. IIRC, Midway was the battle where Japan lost a lot of skilled pilots and it was downhill for their air force from there

 

[DrunkenSano]

Like I said, Zeroes raped us until we out tech'd them with the Cosairs and Hellcats. In my opinion, if you pit the same skilled pilot in a Zero against the same skilled pilot in a Wildcat, Zero would win.

 

[GagHalfrunt]

I dont think it would matter if the Japanese had their best pilots in 43-44. These planes outclassed the zero in every way that mattered.

Yes. It wasn't the "energy fighting" tactics, it was better planes and superior numbers. The Zero easily beat the shit out of the fighters we had when the war started and the next generation fighters like the Hellcat, Corsair and Lightning easily beat the shit out of the Zero.

 

[PowerYoga]

zeros were outclassed and out-teched by the middle of the war on top of losing most of their experienced pilots. Allies simply had better planes whereas Japan never bothered improving theirs so they were stuck with the antiquated zeros when hellcats, corsairs and whatever came out.

 

[uclaLabrat]

Like I said, Zeroes raped us until we out tech'd them with the Cosairs and Hellcats. In my opinion, if you pit the same skilled pilot in a Zero against the same skilled pilot in a Wildcat, Zero would win.

Not necessarily true, at Midway they started utilizing the Thatch weave to great effect. One guy is bait, the other guy blows up the zero, rinse and repeat. Get in trouble, dive away from it. Wildcats could tangle easily with zeros using the right tactics.

 

[uclaLabrat]

Maybe I'm missing something...

The Japanese lost their good fighters because they got killed in combat. Wouldn't that be a result of better technology, planes, planning...not just "attrition"?

Their pilots didn't retire to the Bahamas. Our guys shot them out of the sky. IIRC, Midway was the battle where Japan lost a lot of skilled pilots and it was downhill for their air force from there

Not necessarily in the air, either. At midway, they lost like 300 of their best trained pilots, presumably burning up in their ready rooms when their carriers got shitcanned, with the remainder running out of gas and ditching in the sea, unless they were able to make it to the Hiryu.
Edit: They lost a grand total of 4 out of 6 combat veteran carrier air wings, and most of them weren't shot down, they were destroyed with their ships.

 

[Blackjack200]

It is famous because many pilots lived to tell their tales to the History Channel. :whiste:

Put in equal hands, FW 190D, Ta 152(high altitude variant of Fw 190D), Bf 109 K series(rarely faced off the americans), and Do 335 were all great contenders to the Mustang. They all had superior technology to the Mustang as some had partial electrical assist of control surfaces. Better engine performance, even with 87 octane gas, while Americans and Brits just flooded their engines with lead. They had better performance, better guns(you don't need 6 M3 50 cals when the job can be done with 3-4 20 millimeters).

Soviets(my land) had La 7 designs put in service. Once again, they could climb about same as p51s, had a tighter turning radius, and better guns.

All of the above fighters could have had same range as p51, but they did not need to have it.

See, this is silly. I agree that the FW 190 was an amazing plane, and even allow that it was probably superior to the P-51 in a 1 on 1 with equal pilots and starting positions.

But that's not the scenario either was designed for. The P-51s were bomber escorts, they flew above the bomber formations and pounced on any interceptors that attacked the bombers. Six .50 cals were appropriate because they were taking out fighters. The 109s and 190s were trying to take out the bombers, thus they needed the cannon.

 

[rudeguy]

See, this is silly. I agree that the FW 190 was an amazing plane, and even allow that it was probably superior to the P-51 in a 1 on 1 with equal pilots and starting positions.

But that's not the scenario either was designed for. The P-51s were bomber escorts, they flew above the bomber formations and pounced on any interceptors that attacked the bombers. Six .50 cals were appropriate because they were taking out fighters. The 109s and 190s were trying to take out the bombers, thus they needed the cannon.

OP is Russian. He is looking at it from their viewpoint.

WW2 for them was a very different war than it was for us.

 

[sdifox]

Maybe I'm missing something...

The Japanese lost their good fighters because they got killed in combat. Wouldn't that be a result of better technology, planes, planning...not just "attrition"?

Their pilots didn't retire to the Bahamas. Our guys shot them out of the sky. IIRC, Midway was the battle where Japan lost a lot of skilled pilots and it was downhill for their air force from there

I would think quite a few Japanese pilots were lost because they had nowhere to land.

 

[spacejamz]

I would think quite a few Japanese pilots were lost because they had nowhere to land.

The first 3 Japanese carriers that were sunk at Midway had most of their planes on the flight decks because they were changing their payload from bombs to torpedoes...This was the bulk of their experienced pilots and flight crews....

 

[sdifox]

The first 3 Japanese carriers that were sunk at Midway had most of their planes on the flight decks because they were changing their payload from bombs to torpedoes...This was the bulk of their experienced pilots and flight crews....

yeah, Midway broke their back.

 

[Pacfanweb]

Like I said, Zeroes raped us until we out tech'd them with the Cosairs and Hellcats. In my opinion, if you pit the same skilled pilot in a Zero against the same skilled pilot in a Wildcat, Zero would win.

Then why did so many skilled Zero pilots get shot down by Wildcats?

The difference was tactics and experience. The Wildcat couldn't win a traditional dogfight with the Zero. We learned that early on, and our tactics evolved to make use of the Wildcat's advantages....the main ones were superior armor, and superior diving ability, faster roll rate.

The top speed difference was negligible. Neither plane was going to just run away from the other in level flight.

So we developed tactics to use the Wildcat to beat the Zero, and our pilots getting more experienced made it work. Proof is in the results: Zeros were hard to beat early on, but we figured out how to do it and started beating them with supposedly "inferior" equipment.

The Wildcat is only inferior if you think that traditional WWI-style dogfighting is the only kind of fight there is.

When the Hellcats and Corsairs came along, it was game over. They both not only could still out-dive, out-roll and out-armor the Zeros like the Wildcats could, but they could also significantly out-run, out-climb them and even turn with them a bit. It wouldn't have mattered much if the Japanese still had all their pre-war pilots....they'd have gotten a few more kills, but they'd have still lost.

 

[Pacfanweb]

See, this is silly. I agree that the FW 190 was an amazing plane, and even allow that it was probably superior to the P-51 in a 1 on 1 with equal pilots and starting positions.

In his book, Chuck Yeager flew all the captured Axis planes, and he said that the 190 was the only one that was close to the Mustang's equal.

I would take that as pretty much the gospel, from one of the greatest fighter pilots of all time.

That must have been an awesome time to be a test pilot. Hangars full of all the different planes, and all you had to do was check out in one and fly it. He said he couldn't believe anyone could walk past them and not want to fly them, so he flew them all.

 

[Pacfanweb]

Yes. It wasn't the "energy fighting" tactics, it was better planes and superior numbers. The Zero easily beat the shit out of the fighters we had when the war started and the next generation fighters like the Hellcat, Corsair and Lightning easily beat the shit out of the Zero.

Well actually it WAS tactics, and experience. And the Zero never "beat the shit" out of the Wildcats.

"Although the Zero had important performance advantages over the Wildcat, the A6M2 was never able to dominate the F4F-3, as it did other period Allied fighters (Hurricane, Buffalo, P-36, P-40, etc.). Ultimately, Wildcat pilots prevailed against Zero pilots by means of better tactics and, later in the war, better training. Operating in four ship flights and two ship elements, instead of the three plane Vics used by the Japanese, gave Allied pilots more flexibility in air to air combat. Teamwork, such as the famous Thatch weave, was an effective antidote to the Zero's superior performance. By the end of the war, the various Wildcat models had proven very effective in air to air combat and recorded slightly in excess of a 6 to 1 kill ratio."

http://www.chuckhawks.com/1v1_zero_wildcat.htm


"The A6M2 is a slightly superior dog fighter to the F4F-3, but the two are close enough in performance that the better and more experienced pilot will usually win. I have seen this many times in Warbirds, from both sides! Historically, during the first part of the war when the Japanese pilots were better trained and had more experience, the Zero maintained a favorable victory ratio. Later in the war, when Allied pilots had the advantage in training and experience, the Wildcat achieved a favorable kill ratio."

 

[JulesMaximus]

In his book, Chuck Yeager flew all the captured Axis planes, and he said that the 190 was the only one that was close to the Mustang's equal.

I would take that as pretty much the gospel, from one of the greatest fighter pilots of all time.

That must have been an awesome time to be a test pilot. Hangars full of all the different planes, and all you had to do was check out in one and fly it. He said he couldn't believe anyone could walk past them and not want to fly them, so he flew them all.

I remember reading his autobiography many years ago. It is an easy read and I couldn't put it down. I remember a story he told where he was flying an Air Force plane against another pilot flying a captured Soviet MIG and he waxed the hell out of him. The other pilot blamed the Soviet fighter being inferior so they switched aircraft and went up and Yeager waxed the hell out of him again in the MIG.

Great book. Highly recommend it.

 

[BlitzPuppet]

I would take that as pretty much the gospel, from one of the greatest fighter pilots of all time.

Not to veer too off course but Yeager only achieved 11.5 aerial victories and came no where close to Erich Hartmann who achieved 352, becoming the fighter ace of all time.

Just sayin 😉

 

[Markbnj]

My mom and dad both flew, and I was fortunate enough to hang around some wwII fighter vets when my parents still frequented local airports back in the 60's. They always said the Zero could out-turn and out-climb us, but we could out-dive and out-race the Zero. Once our guys figured that out they changed tactics to match and we did ok. Didn't matter anyway, in the long run, because the main thing the Japanese could not do once we entered the war is make nearly enough planes, or get nearly enough fuel for them, or in fact hang onto places to fly them out of.

 

[Pacfanweb]

Not to veer too off course but Yeager only achieved 11.5 aerial victories and came no where close to Erich Hartmann who achieved 352, becoming the fighter ace of all time.

Just sayin 😉

Irrelevant, really. Most of the highest-scoring aces racked up tons of kill vs. inferior and inexperienced opponents, before the Allies really got into the war and got some good equipment. No German or Japanese pilot scored dozens of kills against Wildcats, Mustangs, P-38's, Thunderbolts, Corsairs, etc....whereas Dick Bong, the US leading scorer of all time, DID get all his kills against current Japanese aircraft.

Yeager has been described by pretty much everyone who ever flew with him as the greatest pilot they ever saw fly. He did fly for decades after WWII, so it's not like the less than 1 1/2 years he was in the war is his only experience and he never improved.

 

[uclaLabrat]

My mom and dad both flew, and I was fortunate enough to hang around some wwII fighter vets when my parents still frequented local airports back in the 60's. They always said the Zero could out-turn and out-climb us, but we could out-dive and out-race the Zero. Once our guys figured that out they changed tactics to match and we did ok. Didn't matter anyway, in the long run, because the main thing the Japanese could not do once we entered the war is make nearly enough planes, or get nearly enough fuel for them, or in fact hang onto places to fly them out of.

Also I think it's interesting their pilot training production ramped early, before the war started and they had their most experienced pilots on the line and on decks, not training new pilots.

Americans pretty much did the opposite and they could keep the supply of planes and pilots open, helping to ease attrition rates. USAAF was training something on the order of 100,000 bomber crewmen and pilots per YEAR.

 

[Pacfanweb]

I remember reading his autobiography many years ago. It is an easy read and I couldn't put it down. I remember a story he told where he was flying an Air Force plane against another pilot flying a captured Soviet MIG and he waxed the hell out of him. The other pilot blamed the Soviet fighter being inferior so they switched aircraft and went up and Yeager waxed the hell out of him again in the MIG.

Great book. Highly recommend it.

Yep. That was a Colonel,(or maybe it was a Major?) who was on leave from combat in Korea, and came to Okinawa where Yeager and a couple others were testing a MIG that a NK pilot defected in. He wanted to know why they weren't dog fighting the MIG vs. the F-86 and Yeager told him that wouldn't tell them much because the pilot made more difference than the plane.

The Colonel didn't believe it and kept on about it, so they checked him out in the MIG and he went against Yeager. Yeager got on his tail easily and stayed there. They landed, switched planes....same result.

 

[Pacfanweb]

Also I think it's interesting their pilot training production ramped early, before the war started and they had their most experienced pilots on the line and on decks, not training new pilots.

Americans pretty much did the opposite and they could keep the supply of planes and pilots open, helping to ease attrition rates. USAAF was training something on the order of 100,000 bomber crewmen and pilots per YEAR.

We also took super-experienced pilots off combat duty and sent them back home to train new pilots, while the Japanese left theirs in combat. Everyone's number comes up eventually, so they lost a lot of their best pilots and that invaluable experience they could have been passing on.

 

[BlitzPuppet]

Irrelevant, really. Most of the highest-scoring aces racked up tons of kill vs. inferior and inexperienced opponents, before the Allies really got into the war and got some good equipment. No German or Japanese pilot scored dozens of kills against Wildcats, Mustangs, P-38's, Thunderbolts, Corsairs, etc....whereas Dick Bong, the US leading scorer of all time, DID get all his kills against current Japanese aircraft.

He downed 2 Mustangs in a single mission leaving the other two to his wingmen. Later in the month he shot down 2 more before running out of fuel while tangling with 8 Mustangs.

His tactics worked, and P-51s/Our fighters in the pacific used the same tactic in the pacific with great success. I say "the same" but mostly am talking about Booming and Zooming....not the waiting until 20m out to fire.

Guy was insane.