Over protection of women?

[Cuda1447]

Or, what about child custody cases. If Im not mistaken, woman almost always get the children? Why do they have more of a right to the children than the males? Equal rights anyone?

Just to clarify, my OP was described to get the talk flowing. Im interested in here both sides of the story. I was simply giving an example I can give from personal experience.

 

[herkulease]

Originally posted by: Legend
Absolutely.

If you're a man, and you go to trial with a woman accusing you of something, you're fvcked, even without any evidence.

Just look at the news...25+ year old teacher has sex with 15 year old student, no jail time.

18 year old boy gets a consensual blow job from a girl that's 1 month away from 16, 10 years in prison.

err the plea deal with the 25 y/o teacher from florida was thrown out. the Judge wouldn't accept it.

 

[kogase]

Originally posted by: Cuda1447
First thing that comes to mind. Being a teacher. Full time teachers require you to be there for your classes. Yet woman who get pregnant often (young teachers) cause many problems for school systems. That school could not hire a male teacher over a female based soley on that though. And even if they male was better they may have issues with sexism had they gone with the male over the female.



Another example would be manual labor where females are not capable of doing the same work, yet you must pay them the same anyways. (I realize there are disputes to this, but Im just giving quick examples).


For instance, here is another situation. How come at many locations (such as grocery stores) females are hired for cashier positions, never bagger positions. Where as a male would be hired most of the time as a bagger first, which is generally less pay? Seems like inequality to me, yet it happens. Nothing is ever said about that though?

Yeah, I'll agree that there's alot of injustice in the system. Lots of this feminism, sexism, chauvanism, whatever-the-hell gets carried too far. I just want to make clear that feminism initially had a noble goal and good points that we shouldn't forget.

 

[Jediab]

In the effort to protect women from the "evils" of the world, some pretty silly and downright stupid laws came into being. Such as in Canada, I have read that violence towards women can not be shown on TV.

The backlash of some of these laws are the rights and liberties of men have been trampled upon without much consideration because of knee jerk reactions.

 

[Cuda1447]

Originally posted by: kogase

Originally posted by: Cuda1447
First thing that comes to mind. Being a teacher. Full time teachers require you to be there for your classes. Yet woman who get pregnant often (young teachers) cause many problems for school systems. That school could not hire a male teacher over a female based soley on that though. And even if they male was better they may have issues with sexism had they gone with the male over the female.



Another example would be manual labor where females are not capable of doing the same work, yet you must pay them the same anyways. (I realize there are disputes to this, but Im just giving quick examples).


For instance, here is another situation. How come at many locations (such as grocery stores) females are hired for cashier positions, never bagger positions. Where as a male would be hired most of the time as a bagger first, which is generally less pay? Seems like inequality to me, yet it happens. Nothing is ever said about that though?

Yeah, I'll agree that there's alot of injustice in the system. Lots of this feminism, sexism, chauvanism, whatever-the-hell gets carried too far. I just want to make clear that feminism initially had a noble goal and good points that we shouldn't forget.

I agree. But it has been taken to far. And woman HAVE equal rights now. Hell, in most cases they have MORE rights. And if anything, continuing this crusade will cause a backlack against woman because of the special treatment they get.

 

[mrrman]

I think that they( employers) believe in equal rights for both males/females however I feel that females can bend the rules more to their favor. In short, they know how to play the game and make it work for them.

 

[herkulease]

I think the biggest thing is we must determine is what's equal. Seriously its something that many think is real easy but there are arguments over it all the time.

its all nice rosy to say we want equal this and equal that but if we can't agree on what's truly equal there will always be problems.

Is Equal fify-fifty?

Is it equal if its relative to population ratio?

Is it equal if the process was equal but the outcome isn't?

What I mean with last one
Example:

is it okay to accept more men then women if the admission process was equal. No bonus points to anyone. Grade point average X SAT. top 100 get in.

I'll clarify if need be with edits.

 

[Cuda1447]

Originally posted by: herkulease
I think the biggest thing is we must determine is what's equal. Seriously its something that many think is real easy but there are arguments over it all the time.

its all nice rosy to say we want equal this and equal that but if we can't agree on what's truly equal there will always be problems.

Is Equal fify-fifty?

Is it equal if its relative to population ratio?

Is it equal if the process was equal but the outcome isn't?

What I mean with last one
Example:

is it okay to accept more men then women if the admission process was equal. No bonus points to anyone. Grade point average X SAT. top 100 get in.

I'll clarify if need be with edits.

I think in most cases its pretty simple to define equal. Example. 100 people applying for a job. Assuming all candidates have the same exact skills, and 70 are men, 30 are women. Then for every 3 women hired, 7 men should be. Equal percentages. However, most people dont' think that way. They would want 5 men and 5 women to be equal.

 

[herkulease]

Originally posted by: Cuda1447

I think in most cases its pretty simple to define equal. Example. 100 people applying for a job. Assuming all candidates have the same exact skills, and 70 are men, 30 are women. Then for every 3 women hired, 7 men should be. Equal percentages. However, most people dont' think that way. They would want 5 men and 5 women to be equal.

that's my point. People won't see it that way. Its only equal when its in YOUR favor. Doesn't matter if its a man or woman. Equality is a difficult issue that there simply isn't 1 answer for but many believe there should be.

 

[Cuda1447]

Originally posted by: herkulease

Originally posted by: Cuda1447

I think in most cases its pretty simple to define equal. Example. 100 people applying for a job. Assuming all candidates have the same exact skills, and 70 are men, 30 are women. Then for every 3 women hired, 7 men should be. Equal percentages. However, most people dont' think that way. They would want 5 men and 5 women to be equal.

that's my point. People won't see it that way. Its only equal when its in YOUR favor. Doesn't matter if its a man or woman. Equality is a difficult issue that there simply isn't 1 answer for but many believe there should be.

I don't think its that difficult of a concept. I don't doubt the fact that people are confused by it, but that does not mean its a difficult thing to define.

Depending on what you are talking about, sure the definition changes. But it does so with everything in life. Equal pay simply means equal pay for the same job. Not sure what is so difficult about that.

 

[AreaCode707]

Originally posted by: JLGatsby

Originally posted by: kogase
Which differences in men and women would account for paying women less money than men for the same work?

That is a myth. Studies have shown women are actually paid more than men for the same work and effort.

Bullshyt, and I have sources.

Bureau of Labor Statistics

Per the most recent national BLS study, "From 1970 to 2004, women's earnings as a percentage of men's increased by 18 percentage points, from 62 to 80%"

Now, please understand that I'm no feminist. Just a stats lover who hates to see misinformation propogated.

 

[Cuda1447]

Some stats stand out to me in that data you presented.


First of all, woman are more likely to enroll in college than men. 71% to 60%. Now if this were a blacks/whites debate, and the blacks were the 60% then there would be a problem. Obviously, it would be easier for a white person to get into college then a black person, thats why there is a disparity there, and as such measures would be taken to help even the numbers.


But this is males/females. And we all know males have the best position in the world, therefore it is fine. No problem there right?



Also Woman hold half of all management/profession jobs in 2004. Seems pretty damn even to me, no?



As for the woman making less - well lets look at why. As Ive already stated above, there are many jobs that women cannot do, that men do. Others have given personal experience of such things. If a woman works on a construction crew, she is probably just holding a site, not doing any of the hard work. Although I bet she gets paid the same. And if she doesnt, then good. Cause it wouldnt' be fair if she did.

 

[BigJ]

Originally posted by: Cuda1447
Some stats stand out to me in that data you presented.


First of all, woman are more likely to enroll in college than men. 71% to 60%. Now if this were a blacks/whites debate, and the blacks were the 60% then there would be a problem. Obviously, it would be easier for a white person to get into college then a black person, thats why there is a disparity there, and as such measures would be taken to help even the numbers.

By college, do they include trade schools? One reason why that may be unequal is because you normally do not see women going into fields that are more manual labor oriented and hands-on. For example, construction, masonry, plumbing, electrical, carpentry, etc.

 

[Cuda1447]

Originally posted by: BigJ

Originally posted by: Cuda1447
Some stats stand out to me in that data you presented.


First of all, woman are more likely to enroll in college than men. 71% to 60%. Now if this were a blacks/whites debate, and the blacks were the 60% then there would be a problem. Obviously, it would be easier for a white person to get into college then a black person, thats why there is a disparity there, and as such measures would be taken to help even the numbers.

By college, do they include trade schools? One reason why that may be unequal is because you normally do not see women going into fields that are more manual labor oriented and hands-on. For example, construction, masonry, plumbing, electrical, carpentry, etc.

Good question. If I had to guess I'd guess no. I can say from personal experience that I see more females at my school than I do males.

 

[shimsham]

get used to it. women have been placed on a pedastal by many a weak man, and they wont be stepping down anytime soon.

 

[drnickriviera]

Originally posted by: Cuda1447

For instance, here is another situation. How come at many locations (such as grocery stores) females are hired for cashier positions, never bagger positions. Where as a male would be hired most of the time as a bagger first, which is generally less pay? Seems like inequality to me, yet it happens. Nothing is ever said about that though?

I believe the statistics say that women are less likely to steal money than men. That's why bank tellers are women.

 

[AreaCode707]

Originally posted by: Cuda1447
Some stats stand out to me in that data you presented.


First of all, woman are more likely to enroll in college than men. 71% to 60%. Now if this were a blacks/whites debate, and the blacks were the 60% then there would be a problem. Obviously, it would be easier for a white person to get into college then a black person, thats why there is a disparity there, and as such measures would be taken to help even the numbers.


But this is males/females. And we all know males have the best position in the world, therefore it is fine. No problem there right?



Also Woman hold half of all management/profession jobs in 2004. Seems pretty damn even to me, no?



As for the woman making less - well lets look at why. As Ive already stated above, there are many jobs that women cannot do, that men do. Others have given personal experience of such things. If a woman works on a construction crew, she is probably just holding a site, not doing any of the hard work. Although I bet she gets paid the same. And if she doesnt, then good. Cause it wouldnt' be fair if she did.

Again, I'm not a feminist, just a stats freak. The two stats you stated out my link are absolutely fine. However, your last statement is trying to draw a conclusion for which there is no evidence in that article. The statistic for women's percentage earnings compared to men is generally done with a position to position comparison.

Women are still making less than men but I think overall they have more opportunity than men in today's world, which is a shame. I'm not a supporter of affirmative action type plans, either by race or gender.

"Also Woman hold half of all management/profession jobs in 2004. Seems pretty damn even to me, no?"
Not if the women are being paid less. I'm in HR though, and I know my company is SCRUPULOUS about making sure there is no inequality, that people are paid on merit.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: HotChic
The statistic for women's percentage earnings compared to men is generally done with a position to position comparison.

Question: Is it also compared on a tenure to tenure basis? I honestly don't know and am curious.

It seems to me that part of the discrepancy may be due to a difference in tenure even when comparing job-to-job. As women have only recently gained the access to those positions, it seems to me that their average tenure would be less, resulting in a lower average pay for a given position (for higher level positions of course). As average tenure in a position equalizes over time (which I believe we are seeing happening), the disparity in wages should slowly approach 0 (again, which I think we are seeing happen, though it hasn't gotten there yet).

Of course, there's also the possibility that I'm full of sh*t and the positions really are being compared on a tenure to tenure basis.

ZV

 

[bleeb]

Originally posted by: BrokenVisage
first reply reserved for later

 

[Banzai042]

Ok, here's a question: It's easy to say that women are taking home less money than men, but what happens if you account for things like maternity leave? If a woman is going to get paid maternaty leave than why should she be paid the same as a man who is doing more work, because he isn't taking nearly as much paid time off from work. If we are going to pay women exactly what men get paid, then women should get no benefits that a man doesn't get. If they want equality let them have true equality.
Also, when we see stats on how much men get paid vs women, does that take into account the fact that a man who has been working with a company for longer (because he started working right after college 15 years ago when there were not nearly as many women graduating as men) will get paid more than a woman who has been with the company for 2 or 3 years?
I'd be interested to see what the stats looked like if we were to look at specific industries, specific leingths of time with the company, and calling all benifits a part of the salary. I am willing to admit that it is still possible that women won't be getting paid as much as men under that scenario, but i doubt that the disparity will be nearly as high as it is now.

 

[SampSon]

Women can get restraining orders on men with little to no reason.
Women can call the police and be guaranteed that the man will be the one put into handcuffs immediatly.
Women can get divorced and easily get custody of the children and obtain child support/alimony with little to no effort.
Women can be hired solely on the basis that a company needs a female employee to meet it's quota (goes for minorities too).

Women can have multiple orgasms in a row.

 

[acemcmac]

Originally posted by: n7
There are many double standards in society.

/thread