Out Of Their Anti Tax Minds

[Jhhnn]

I'm no great fan of David Brooks, but even he gets it-

If the debt ceiling talks fail, independents voters will see that Democrats were willing to compromise but Republicans were not. If responsible Republicans don’t take control, independents will conclude that Republican fanaticism caused this default. They will conclude that Republicans are not fit to govern.

And they will be right.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/05/opinion/05brooks.html?_r=2&hp

So, uhh, be careful what you wish for...

 

[JS80]

Conservatives are no fan of Brooks. Besides, he's wrong. People only remember who's at the helm. Just like no one remembers what Congress did during W's reign, people will blame Obama for everything if SHTF.

 

[Craig234]

I'm no great fan of David Brooks, but even he gets it-



http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/05/opinion/05brooks.html?_r=2&hp

So, uhh, be careful what you wish for...

Really, the fact of what they've *already* done - voting against the increase without a 'deal' the demand in extortion by threatening the US economy - condemns them as unfit.

Unfortunately, Democrats voting against increases some of the times under Bush leaves them with dirty hands also, despite their apparent claims it 'was only because they knew it would pass'. I haven't checked into the credibility of that accusation, but it doesn't seem to justify that vote regardless.

They've already forced the US into expensive actions to avoid default, and put questions into our creditors about the risk of loaning to us, seeing this game playing about the debt.

This fits well with Thomas Frank's book, "The Wrecking Crew: How Conservatives Rule".

 

[fskimospy]

Conservatives are no fan of Brooks. Besides, he's wrong. People only remember who's at the helm. Just like no one remembers what Congress did during W's reign, people will blame Obama for everything if SHTF.

Yeah, like when the government shut down in 1995, people only remembered that Clinton was in charge.

Oh wait.

 

[MomentsofSanity]

Conservatives are no fan of Brooks. Besides, he's wrong. People only remember who's at the helm. Just like no one remembers what Congress did during W's reign, people will blame Obama for everything if SHTF.

ANd the GOP majority congress took the heat for the government shutdowns in the mid 90's under Clinton's presidency. It's a big gamble to think they won't take the heat this time too.

Edit: beaten by eskimospy. Now I'm just being redundant. Dammit!

 

[theeedude]

I disagree with him in that he makes Republicans being unfit to govern contingent on them not striking a deal. They are unfit to govern, period.

 

[brencat]

Guys, we are waaaaaay past the point where people are ready to blame only Repubs for our debt woes. People are pissed at ALL of them...Dems & Repubs to a level I haven't seen ever. They will hold everyone responsible for fiddling while the U.S. burned. For making politics all about clubbing your opponent until he's dead, rather than doing what needs to be done for the country.

Personally, I'd like to see carried interest repealed (should have been done the next day after the Dems had full control of everything), capital gains taxes raised from 15% to 25-28%, and Bush tax cuts on earned income rolled back for those making $650-750k+ ($250k is way too low).

At the same time, I want defense cut 10%, entitlements cut, and Obamacare repealed. I also want the govt bureaucracy shrunk at least 10% across all agencies.

I'm not sure how this is going to play out. But the facts are Repubs won the House last year on stopping the Obama spending agenda and instituting divided govt to force these fvcks to work together or end in stalemate. I'm half tempted to say let this go right to the wire to ensure I get the amount of cuts I'm looking for.

The Dems don't want the kind of tax increases I want. They are too focused on earned income and not enough on unearned income which will target primarily the top 0.1% where all the juice really is. Meanwhile the Repubs won't have any of what I want either.

Short answer...they all suck. And if they can't work this out, then I say throw them all the fvck out and start over, including with Obama because he's shown himself to be ineffective when it counts.

 

[OutHouse]

how people vote

1. how he looks on camera
2. if he gives pretty speeches that shows empathy and grabs at the hearts of their audience.
3. smiles a lot
4. gives more pretty speeches that shows he understands the working class struggles
5. plays golf
6. gives more pretty speeches how he is going to change washington (they all say that ) for the working middle class and throw out all the bums (they all say that too)

yup that pretty much what most American voters want to hear, see and remember at the boot the rest is just white noise.

 

[matt0611]

The debt ceiling talks will not "fail", you think they're seriously going to let the US go into default? LMAO. No effing way that will happen.

 

[Jhhnn]

Conservatives are no fan of Brooks. Besides, he's wrong. People only remember who's at the helm. Just like no one remembers what Congress did during W's reign, people will blame Obama for everything if SHTF.

By "conservatives", you're apparently referencing modern mindless out of their anti tax mind conservatives, who obviously won't like Brooks, or anybody who doesn't satisfy their craving for confirmation bias.

As one of the Faithful, You'll obviously feel compelled to say that, even if you don't believe it at all...

Whistlin' past the graveyard...

 

[Lemon law]

Conservatives are no fan of Brooks. Besides, he's wrong. People only remember who's at the helm. Just like no one remembers what Congress did during W's reign, people will blame Obama for everything if SHTF.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The fact is and remains JS80 is on the wrong side of history. As he forgets that in the only comparable point in US history after Hoover, the US electorate continued to blame the GOP despite the fact that FDR struggled too.

If the GOP collapses the American economy before 11/2012, by advocating the same economic policies Hoover did, this time, it may end the GOP as a national party for far longer and maybe even forever.

 

[Jhhnn]

Guys, we are waaaaaay past the point where people are ready to blame only Repubs for our debt woes. People are pissed at ALL of them...Dems & Repubs to a level I haven't seen ever. They will hold everyone responsible for fiddling while the U.S. burned. For making politics all about clubbing your opponent until he's dead, rather than doing what needs to be done for the country.

Personally, I'd like to see carried interest repealed (should have been done the next day after the Dems had full control of everything), capital gains taxes raised from 15% to 25-28%, and Bush tax cuts on earned income rolled back for those making $650-750k+ ($250k is way too low).

At the same time, I want defense cut 10%, entitlements cut, and Obamacare repealed. I also want the govt bureaucracy shrunk at least 10% across all agencies.

I'm not sure how this is going to play out. But the facts are Repubs won the House last year on stopping the Obama spending agenda and instituting divided govt to force these fvcks to work together or end in stalemate. I'm half tempted to say let this go right to the wire to ensure I get the amount of cuts I'm looking for.

The Dems don't want the kind of tax increases I want. They are too focused on earned income and not enough on unearned income which will target primarily the top 0.1% where all the juice really is. Meanwhile the Repubs won't have any of what I want either.

Short answer...they all suck. And if they can't work this out, then I say throw them all the fvck out and start over, including with Obama because he's shown himself to be ineffective when it counts.

They're Just As Bad! They're Just as Bad!

Did you even read the article?

This isn't about the debt per se, at all. Don't pretend that it is, OK?

 

[brencat]

They're Just As Bad! They're Just as Bad!

Did you even read the article?

This isn't about the debt per se, at all. Don't pretend that it is, OK?

I did read the article. And I disagree with his premise. In my view, the Repubs are being especially unyielding here because they perceive Obama to be WEAK. I have addressed this fact at least twice recently in other threads. Obama caved on extending the Bush tax cuts before and the Repubs have calculated (probably correctly) that he will cave again and they are willing to take it right to the wire to see who is the better chess player. I mean why wouldn't you if you were in their shoes? You have nothing to lose, everything to gain if the Dems cave.

 

[Darwin333]

Really, the fact of what they've *already* done - voting against the increase without a 'deal' the demand in extortion by threatening the US economy - condemns them as unfit.

Unfortunately, Democrats voting against increases some of the times under Bush leaves them with dirty hands also, despite their apparent claims it 'was only because they knew it would pass'. I haven't checked into the credibility of that accusation, but it doesn't seem to justify that vote regardless.

They've already forced the US into expensive actions to avoid default, and put questions into our creditors about the risk of loaning to us, seeing this game playing about the debt.

This fits well with Thomas Frank's book, "The Wrecking Crew: How Conservatives Rule".

If you remove 2008 to now from the chart our bond rates are lower than ever before in history. Not sure about you but in my book that damn sure doesn't equal "put questions into our creditors about the risk of loaning to us, seeing this game playing about the debt".

They aren't questioning it, they are loaning it to the US for either real close to no profit or an actual loss.

After you have looked at that chart I would suggest you look at a chart of Greece's bond prices to see what really happens when creditors "question the risk of loaning you money".

The numbers/reality simply do not back up your statement.

 

[glenn1]

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The fact is and remains JS80 is on the wrong side of history. As he forgets that in the only comparable point in US history after Hoover, the US electorate continued to blame the GOP despite the fact that FDR struggled too.

If the GOP collapses the American economy before 11/2012, by advocating the same economic policies Hoover did, this time, it may end the GOP as a national party for far longer and maybe even forever.

For sake of argument, I'll go along with your premise. If Democrats cave, then Republicans win. If they don't, the economy tanks, Republicans take the blame, then Democrats win the next election and get to rule over the rubble. So you're crowing about a potential scenario where your worst case scenario is a big loss, and best case is a pyhrric victory?

 

[Darwin333]

I did read the article. And I disagree with his premise. In my view, the Repubs are being especially unyielding here because they perceive Obama to be WEAK. I have addressed this fact at least twice recently in other threads. Obama caved on extending the Bush tax cuts before and the Repubs have calculated (probably correctly) that he will cave again and they are willing to take it right to the wire to see who is the better chess player. I mean why wouldn't you if you were in their shoes? You have nothing to lose, everything to gain if the Dems cave.

This is exactly what is happening right now.

Neither side is willing to reap the whirlwind of shit that will come from not raising the debt ceiling and no it won't be a default on our debt which would probably be better for them politically, it will mean no social security, medicare, medicaid, no department of whatever the hell funding, even military checks stop but the interest on the debt gets paid.

This is a political game of chicken. One side will blink before they crash it is simply a matter of who and how much. Not that I agree with the tactics or the results but I must agree that the Republicans have been playing the game better so far. We will see if that is still true in a month.

 

[Craig234]

If you remove 2008 to now from the chart our bond rates are lower than ever before in history. Not sure about you but in my book that damn sure doesn't equal "put questions into our creditors about the risk of loaning to us, seeing this game playing about the debt".

They aren't questioning it, they are loaning it to the US for either real close to no profit or an actual loss.

After you have looked at that chart I would suggest you look at a chart of Greece's bond prices to see what really happens when creditors "question the risk of loaning you money".

The numbers/reality simply do not back up your statement.

Yes, they do. In fact, interest rates are so low now, that experts say that this is a great time to borrow MORE money for our infrastructure - not to mention employment.

Fat chance getting the 'Democrat's in power, now's the time to fix the debt' Republicans to go along with what's good for the country on that.

The error in your comment is that you are not understanding when I say 'ask questions', I'm not talking about the stage yet where it has caused interest rates to rise.

You're getting ahead of where we are. Greece is further along in that process.

I was just watching yet more commentary on this that the impact on our interest rates if we default could last decades. And yes, IMO, just the bluffing causes risk.

Let's talk again later in the year and see where we are. Of course if we actually default on things, all bets are off, I expect we'd agree that will cause big problems.

If we do increase the debt ceiling, perhaps that will cool things off on the risk, but I suspect a 'short-term' increase Republicans are suggesting might cause problems.

There won't be any numbers showing that happened for months and even then there will be different opinions on the cause.

Greece has nothing to do with the sort of 'questions' I'm talking about, they did a lot more than that.

 

[Slew Foot]

Goddammit Brencat, you make too much sense.

 

[Jhhnn]

I did read the article. And I disagree with his premise. In my view, the Repubs are being especially unyielding here because they perceive Obama to be WEAK. I have addressed this fact at least twice recently in other threads. Obama caved on extending the Bush tax cuts before and the Repubs have calculated (probably correctly) that he will cave again and they are willing to take it right to the wire to see who is the better chess player. I mean why wouldn't you if you were in their shoes? You have nothing to lose, everything to gain if the Dems cave.

Yeh, but it's not really up to Obama at all, but rather Senatorial Dems & the Repub HOR. If the Senate sends a compromise bill back to the HOR, which seems highly likely, HOR Repubs end up with egg on their face no matter how they play it...

If they accept it, the rabid elements in their base will go nuts, and if they don't, then govt functions will cease, invoking Brooks' scenario.

In politics, as in life, there are basic rules, one of them being "Don't stick it in the Crazy!" which the Repub leadership has violated for decades. Now the Crazy is jumping up to drag them down...

 

[Craig234]

In my view, the Repubs are being especially unyielding here because they perceive Obama to be WEAK.

I think you're right.

It's hard to find a liberal who isn't critical of Obama's caves to Republican extortion.

So we see it constantly on practically everything, from filibusters, to judicial appointments, to non-judicial appointments, to renewing the START treaty, to renewing unemployment benefits, to passing healthcare reform, to funding programs they don't like, to voting for their own policies if Obama agrees to them, to the debt ceiling and more.

 

[spidey07]

Revenue means my money. Fuck democrats. You want to take away my deductions Obama. Well fuck you and fuck Obama.

This has been his plan all along. You must not have been paying attention to this fucker.

I have. Search my posts. This was his plan. He told you what he was going to do

Fuck Obama.

 

[Doppel]

There was never any chance of a default occurring because of this debt limit not being raised. Never, ever. Either it will be raised or it won't and some other way to avoid default will happen. The gov brings in far more than it pays in interest payments anyway (ok not far...hehe), it could just withhold some SS checks if it had to, to avoid default. Not that it would want to. They will vote for a ceiling increase just as they always do.

 

[theeedude]

Revenue means my money. Fuck democrats. You want to take away my deductions Obama. Well fuck you and fuck Obama.

This has been his plan all along. You must not have been paying attention to this fucker.

I have. Search my posts. This was his plan. He told you what he was going to do

Fuck Obama.

Are you deducting the interest on your mom's basement?

 

[MomentsofSanity]

Revenue means my money. Fuck democrats. You want to take away my deductions Obama. Well fuck you and fuck Obama.

This has been his plan all along. You must not have been paying attention to this fucker.

I have. Search my posts. This was his plan. He told you what he was going to do

Fuck Obama.

Rant rant rant. Black guy. Rant rant.

That's about all I see when I read your posts. Man how happy would it make you if the "N" word became socially acceptable again?

 

[brencat]

Revenue means my money. Fuck democrats. You want to take away my deductions Obama. Well fuck you and fuck Obama.

This has been his plan all along. You must not have been paying attention to this fucker.

I have. Search my posts. This was his plan. He told you what he was going to do

Fuck Obama.

spidey, comon man. I agree with you on a lot of things, but if you stop for even 5 minutes to think, even you can see there are some real distortions in the tax code that benefit the top 0.1% at the expense of pretty much everyone else.

Seriously...carried interest?? WTF. Cutting inheritance taxes to zero? (Steinbrenner's timely 2010 death saved his Yankee family millions in taxes) -- it is not in this country's interest to have dynasties. Capital gains taxes at 15% which benefits only the 'investor' class of society while earned income/salaried income is taxed at a higher effective rate?

The Dems are batshit crazy too with never wanting to cut a damn thing, growing govt and raising taxes all the time if we let them. But if we want to be taken seriously as conservatives, some of these distortions benefiting primarily the top 0.1% need to be corrected pronto.