• We should now be fully online following an overnight outage. Apologies for any inconvenience, we do not expect there to be any further issues.

Our Unconstitutional Census

SAWYER

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
16,742
42
91
This blows my mind, I literally don't know what to say. And please don't turn this into a right/left finger pointing issue. People on both sides should be outraged.
http://online.wsj.com/article/...74332950796281832.html

Next year?s census will determine the apportionment of House members and Electoral College votes for each state. To accomplish these vital constitutional purposes, the enumeration should count only citizens and persons who are legal, permanent residents. But it won?t.

Instead, the U.S. Census Bureau is set to count all persons physically present in the country?including large numbers who are here illegally. The result will unconstitutionally increase the number of representatives in some states and deprive some other states of their rightful political representation. Citizens of ?loser? states should be outraged. Yet few are even aware of what?s going on.

In 1790, the first Census Act provided that the enumeration of that year would count ?inhabitants? and ?distinguish? various subgroups by age, sex, status as free persons, etc. Inhabitant was a term with a well-defined meaning that encompassed, as the Oxford English Dictionary expressed it, one who ?is a bona fide member of a State, subject to all the requisitions of its laws, and entitled to all the privileges which they confer.?

Thus early census questionnaires generally asked a question that got at the issue of citizenship or permanent resident status, e.g., ?what state or foreign country were you born in?? or whether an individual who said he was foreign-born was naturalized. Over the years, however, Congress and the Census Bureau have added inquiries that have little or nothing to do with census?s constitutional purpose.

By 1980 there were two census forms. The shorter form went to every person physically present in the country and was used to establish congressional apportionment. It had no question pertaining to an individual?s citizenship or legal status as a resident. The longer form gathered various kinds of socioeconomic information including citizenship status, but it went only to a sample of U.S. households. That pattern was repeated for the 1990 and 2000 censuses.

The 2010 census will use only the short form. The long form has been replaced by the Census Bureau?s ongoing American Community Survey. Dr. Elizabeth Grieco, chief of the Census Bureau?s Immigration Statistics Staff, told us in a recent interview that the 2010 census short form does not ask about citizenship because ?Congress has not asked us to do that.?

Because the census (since at least 1980) has not distinguished citizens and permanent, legal residents from individuals here illegally, the basis for apportionment of House seats has been skewed. According to the Census Bureau?s latest American Community Survey data (2007), states with a significant net gain in population by inclusion of noncitizens include Arizona, California, Florida, Illinois, Nevada, New Jersey, New York and Texas. (There are tiny net gains for Hawaii and Massachusetts.)

This makes a real difference. Here?s why:

According to the latest American Community Survey, California has 5,622,422 noncitizens in its population of 36,264,467. Based on our round-number projection of a decade-end population in that state of 37,000,000 (including 5,750,000 noncitizens), California would have 57 members in the newly reapportioned U.S. House of Representatives.

However, with noncitizens not included for purposes of reapportionment, California would have 48 House seats (based on an estimated 308 million total population in 2010 with 283 million citizens, or 650,000 citizens per House seat). Using a similar projection, Texas would have 38 House members with noncitizens included. With only citizens counted, it would be entitled to 34 members.

Of course, other states lose out when noncitizens are counted for reapportionment. According to projections of the 2010 Census by Election Data Services, states certain to lose one seat in the 2010 reapportionment are Iowa, Louisiana, Massachusetts, Michigan, New Jersey, New York, Ohio and Pennsylvania; states likely (though not certain) to lose a seat are Illinois, Minnesota, Missouri, and Ohio could lose a second seat. But under a proper census enumeration that excluded illegal residents, some of the states projected to lose a representative?including our own state of Louisiana?would not do so.

The census has drifted far from its constitutional roots, and the 2010 enumeration will result in a malapportionment of Congress.

In the 1964 case of Wesberry v. Sanders, the Supreme Court said, ?The House of Representatives, the [Constitutional] Convention agreed, was to represent the people as individuals and on a basis of complete equality for each voter.? It ruled that Georgia had violated the equal-vote principle because House districts within the state did not contain roughly the same number of voting citizens. Justice Hugo Black wrote in his majority opinion that ?one man?s vote in a congressional election is to be worth as much as another?s.? The same principle is being violated now on a national basis because of our faulty census.

The Census Bureau can of course collect whatever data Congress authorizes. But Congress must not permit the bureau to unconstitutionally redefine who are ?We the People of the United States.?

Mr. Baker teaches constitutional law at Louisiana State University. Mr. Stonecipher is a Louisiana pollster and demographic analyst.
 

Carmen813

Diamond Member
May 18, 2007
3,189
0
76
We should stop trying to count everyone door to door and instead use statistical methods, which are more accurate anyway. Ever try knocking on city doors and counting people in an inner city?
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
35,795
10,092
136
Originally posted by: Cuda1447
Illegals is a big fucking problem. A big fucking problem I say.

I believe the government's approach to the "undocumented" is to simply document them. Problem solved, if you ask them.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,983
55,386
136
The constitution CLEARLY states PERSONS are to be counted, not citizens. in other areas the constitution specifies citizens. Therefore it would be unconstitutional to count only citizens and legal aliens. Attempting to equate a decision with regards to voting citizens to a census not only defeats the purpose of a census, but is silly on it's face. Felins and the insane can't vote either, but they are counted.
 

Athena

Golden Member
Apr 9, 2001
1,484
0
0
Originally posted by: Carmen813
We should stop trying to count everyone door to door and instead use statistical methods, which are more accurate anyway. Ever try knocking on city doors and counting people in an inner city?
Can you imagine what it was like for the first group of enumerators who had to go from farm to farm in the woods, criss-crossing counties to be sure that everyone was counted? Or how about the 1870 census when thousands of recently emancipated citizens were counted for the first time.

As someone who uses the historical population schedules all the time, I am very much against the substitution of statistical estimates for an actual census. They are fine for supplementing the decennial count but not as a substitute.
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
1
81
Originally posted by: eskimospy
The constitution CLEARLY states PERSONS are to be counted, not citizens. in other areas the constitution specifies citizens. Therefore it would be unconstitutional to count only citizens and legal aliens. Attempting to equate a decision with regards to voting citizens to a census not only defeats the purpose of a census, but is silly on it's face. Felins and the insane can't vote either, but they are counted.
A person, as defined by the Constitution, is someone born here or naturalized. That's clearly stated at the start of Amendment 14.
 

marincounty

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2005
3,227
5
76
Maybe they said "inhabitants" because they wanted to account for slaves, just as it makes sense to count illegal aliens, after all they live and work here too.

California has to educate, feed, house and police the illegals, so it only makes sense to count them as residents. It's also the Feds job to remove them from the country, which they aren't doing.
 

Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
17,844
1
0
Originally posted by: marincounty
California has to educate, feed, house and police the illegals, so it only makes sense to count them as residents. It's also the Feds job to remove them from the country, which they aren't doing.

EXACTLY.
 

theflyingpig

Banned
Mar 9, 2008
5,616
18
0
The illegals make this country worse and worse everyday. They are contaminating our culture, cities, and prisons. They are the disease that is weakening this great nation. Everyone knows this.
 

Newbian

Lifer
Aug 24, 2008
24,779
882
126
Originally posted by: theflyingpig
The illegals make this country worse and worse everyday. They are contaminating our culture, cities, and prisons. They are the disease that is weakening this great nation. Everyone knows this.

And yet the nation was founded on it so where did it start to go wrong? :(
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,983
55,386
136
Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Originally posted by: eskimospy
The constitution CLEARLY states PERSONS are to be counted, not citizens. in other areas the constitution specifies citizens. Therefore it would be unconstitutional to count only citizens and legal aliens. Attempting to equate a decision with regards to voting citizens to a census not only defeats the purpose of a census, but is silly on it's face. Felins and the insane can't vote either, but they are counted.
A person, as defined by the Constitution, is someone born here or naturalized. That's clearly stated at the start of Amendment 14.

Wrong. Go read the 14th amendment again. It says A CITIZEN is someone born here or naturalized.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,983
55,386
136
Originally posted by: theflyingpig
The illegals make this country worse and worse everyday. They are contaminating our culture, cities, and prisons. They are the disease that is weakening this great nation. Everyone knows this.

Morons like you have been making this same argument for 230 years and it never gets more right.

Everyone knows this. It cannot be denied.
 

theflyingpig

Banned
Mar 9, 2008
5,616
18
0
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: theflyingpig
The illegals make this country worse and worse everyday. They are contaminating our culture, cities, and prisons. They are the disease that is weakening this great nation. Everyone knows this.

Morons like you have been making this same argument for 230 years and it never gets more right.

Everyone knows this. It cannot be denied.

You are a fool if you believe that the illegal scourge is doing anything but destroying this country. They come here and take up jobs and resources that could be used for citizens. Their presence alone lowers property values. These are facts which cannot be denied.
 

EXman

Lifer
Jul 12, 2001
20,079
15
81
Can we Kick Cali the fuck out of the union? or at least sut it in half and just take Nor Cal and the interior?

Honestly I know there is a lot of good peeps there but what a clusterfuck of a state.

joking semi serious brainstorm...
 
Dec 10, 2005
28,791
13,984
136
Originally posted by: theflyingpig
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: theflyingpig
The illegals make this country worse and worse everyday. They are contaminating our culture, cities, and prisons. They are the disease that is weakening this great nation. Everyone knows this.

Morons like you have been making this same argument for 230 years and it never gets more right.

Everyone knows this. It cannot be denied.

You are a fool if you believe that the illegal scourge is doing anything but destroying this country. They come here and take up jobs and resources that could be used for citizens. Their presence alone lowers property values. These are facts which cannot be denied.

Just think, you could be mowing that lawn, picking that lettuce, or sweeping that floor instead if not for those damn illegals.
 

ilkhan

Golden Member
Jul 21, 2006
1,117
1
0
the nation wasn't founded by invaders, it was founded by patriots. Since the people in power are neither...
 

bob4432

Lifer
Sep 6, 2003
11,727
46
91
Originally posted by: Athena
Originally posted by: Carmen813
We should stop trying to count everyone door to door and instead use statistical methods, which are more accurate anyway. Ever try knocking on city doors and counting people in an inner city?
Can you imagine what it was like for the first group of enumerators who had to go from farm to farm in the woods, criss-crossing counties to be sure that everyone was counted? Or how about the 1870 census when thousands of recently emancipated citizens were counted for the first time.

As someone who uses the historical population schedules all the time, I am very much against the substitution of statistical estimates for an actual census. They are fine for supplementing the decennial count but not as a substitute.

when acorn is doing the counting.....you really want to rely on that info?

 

theflyingpig

Banned
Mar 9, 2008
5,616
18
0
Originally posted by: Brainonska511
Originally posted by: theflyingpig
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: theflyingpig
The illegals make this country worse and worse everyday. They are contaminating our culture, cities, and prisons. They are the disease that is weakening this great nation. Everyone knows this.

Morons like you have been making this same argument for 230 years and it never gets more right.

Everyone knows this. It cannot be denied.

You are a fool if you believe that the illegal scourge is doing anything but destroying this country. They come here and take up jobs and resources that could be used for citizens. Their presence alone lowers property values. These are facts which cannot be denied.

Just think, you could be mowing that lawn, picking that lettuce, or sweeping that floor instead if not for those damn illegals.

I take pride in my lawn, and I am complimented on my fine homegrown meals, and I have citizen servants to clean my mansion. You have lost your vision, my friend. I suggest you open your eyes and see the truth.
 

EXman

Lifer
Jul 12, 2001
20,079
15
81
Originally posted by: bob4432
Originally posted by: Athena
Originally posted by: Carmen813
We should stop trying to count everyone door to door and instead use statistical methods, which are more accurate anyway. Ever try knocking on city doors and counting people in an inner city?
Can you imagine what it was like for the first group of enumerators who had to go from farm to farm in the woods, criss-crossing counties to be sure that everyone was counted? Or how about the 1870 census when thousands of recently emancipated citizens were counted for the first time.

As someone who uses the historical population schedules all the time, I am very much against the substitution of statistical estimates for an actual census. They are fine for supplementing the decennial count but not as a substitute.

when acorn is doing the counting.....you really want to rely on that info?

If acorn told me the sky was blue I'd double check that. Unless they gave me a pack of smokes. Then I'd think they were ok in my book! /sarcasm
 

bob4432

Lifer
Sep 6, 2003
11,727
46
91
Originally posted by: EXman
Originally posted by: bob4432
Originally posted by: Athena
Originally posted by: Carmen813
We should stop trying to count everyone door to door and instead use statistical methods, which are more accurate anyway. Ever try knocking on city doors and counting people in an inner city?
Can you imagine what it was like for the first group of enumerators who had to go from farm to farm in the woods, criss-crossing counties to be sure that everyone was counted? Or how about the 1870 census when thousands of recently emancipated citizens were counted for the first time.

As someone who uses the historical population schedules all the time, I am very much against the substitution of statistical estimates for an actual census. They are fine for supplementing the decennial count but not as a substitute.

when acorn is doing the counting.....you really want to rely on that info?

If acorn told me the sky was blue I'd double check that. Unless they gave me a pack of smokes. Then I'd think they were ok in my book! /sarcasm

well, if your house gets foreclosed on, they will help you break back into it :)
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,986
3,321
126
Originally posted by: Carmen813
We should stop trying to count everyone door to door and instead use statistical methods, which are more accurate anyway. Ever try knocking on city doors and counting people in an inner city?

statistical methods are more accurate than hands on counting...hmmmm
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,986
3,321
126
Originally posted by: eskimospy
The constitution CLEARLY states PERSONS are to be counted, not citizens. in other areas the constitution specifies citizens. Therefore it would be unconstitutional to count only citizens and legal aliens. Attempting to equate a decision with regards to voting citizens to a census not only defeats the purpose of a census, but is silly on it's face. Felins and the insane can't vote either, but they are counted.

beat me to it!!
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,986
3,321
126
Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Originally posted by: eskimospy
The constitution CLEARLY states PERSONS are to be counted, not citizens. in other areas the constitution specifies citizens. Therefore it would be unconstitutional to count only citizens and legal aliens. Attempting to equate a decision with regards to voting citizens to a census not only defeats the purpose of a census, but is silly on it's face. Felins and the insane can't vote either, but they are counted.
A person, as defined by the Constitution, is someone born here or naturalized. That's clearly stated at the start of Amendment 14.

You are totally wrong..in fact you are spreading mis-information.....

Eskimo is 100% correct! The constitution CLEARLY states PERSONS are to be counted, not citizens.

Nowhere in the 14th amendment does it define a person as being a born or naturalized in the USA!!
It states all persons born or naturalized --- that is not talking about a definition and it is NOT talking about the census!
Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
Section 2. Representatives shall be apportioned among the several States according to their respective numbers, counting the whole number of persons in each State, excluding Indians not taxed. But when the right to vote at any election for the choice of electors for President and Vice President of the United States, Representatives in Congress, the Executive and Judicial officers of a State, or the members of the Legislature thereof, is denied to any of the male inhabitants of such State, being twenty-one years of age, and citizens of the United States, or in any way abridged, except for participation in rebellion, or other crime, the basis of representation therein shall be reduced in the proportion which the number of such male citizens shall bear to the whole number of male citizens twenty-one years of age in such State.

Section 3. No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability.

Section 4. The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. But neither the United States nor any State shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void.

Section 5. The Congress shall have power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article.