Our supposed EV future....(updated)

[FelixDeCat]

Who buys a car to get rid of it after only 5 years? That seems like a really stupid financial decision. Even cars I buy used I tend to keep longer. My last one I kept for 7 years. It's only my first car that I kept for only a few years, but it was on it's last legs so I made it last as long as was economically feasible. I wish aluminium and stainless steel was more common in cars, as they usually die due to rust, and not drive train issues. Will be interesting to see how the cybertruck fairs out in 10-20 years from now.

If I bought new I'd want it to last most of my life. Unfortunately they are just not built that way, which is why I can't justify new.

Some people simply like to upgrade their ride if they can afford to do so or necessity requires a larger vehicle.

And now that technology goes out of date quickly with integrated displays, etc., that makes your car feel even older.

I bought a new car in 2019 and it has almost every available option (except leather), but now I am considering a small SUV. I bought the car then because they could not sell cars at the time and I got a very good deal on it.

Its now 60% paid off, which makes me hesitate to run out and go deeper into debt. Otherwise I would do it - after only 2 years - but I am no fan of car payments. 😉

 

[Torn Mind]

Who buys a car to get rid of it after only 5 years? That seems like a really stupid financial decision. Even cars I buy used I tend to keep longer. My last one I kept for 7 years. It's only my first car that I kept for only a few years, but it was on it's last legs so I made it last as long as was economically feasible. I wish aluminium and stainless steel was more common in cars, as they usually die due to rust, and not drive train issues. Will be interesting to see how the cybertruck fairs out in 10-20 years from now.

If I bought new I'd want it to last most of my life. Unfortunately they are just not built that way, which is why I can't justify new.

Bimmer owners.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

The ICE bans that are incoming, are "ICE bans", not "must have battery plans", so PHEVs won't be the way to go if you are looking for new cars in the post ban era, because they won't exist.

Unless you are suggesting that you are somehow going to change all the ICE bans, into PHEV plans? Good luck with that crusade.

Also most PHEVs kind of suck, being really slow in EV mode, where you theoretically want to drive them most of the time, and on a pretty short horizon, will be more expensive that decent pure EV, and more complex, and higher maintenance.

PHEVs are like EV with training wheels. A short term stop gap.

The best PHEV ever on the market was the Chevy Volt, which GM abandoned for pure EVs like the Bolt. Since they see the market realities, unfolding everywhere.

My RAV4 (Optimus) Prime has been awesome. Gets from 0-60 in 5.7 seconds.

2026 Toyota RAV4 Plug-in Hybrid | Toyota.com

Discover the all-new, 2026 Toyota RAV4 Plug-in Hybrid that blends powerful performance, versatile capability and next-gen tech.

www.toyota.com

It's actually perfect for what we needed - 47 or so miles on EV for when doing daily commute stuff for work - never even makes it to gas...

But if we have a hurricane evacuation or something along those lines, we have gas as needed to get a good 400+ miles.

 

[Viper GTS]

My RAV4 (Optimus) Prime has been awesome. Gets from 0-60 in 5.7 seconds.

2026 Toyota RAV4 Plug-in Hybrid | Toyota.com

Discover the all-new, 2026 Toyota RAV4 Plug-in Hybrid that blends powerful performance, versatile capability and next-gen tech.

www.toyota.com

It's actually perfect for what we needed - 47 or so miles on EV for when doing daily commute stuff for work - never even makes it to gas...

But if we have a hurricane evacuation or something along those lines, we have gas as needed to get a good 400+ miles.

That's not 5.7 in EV only mode is it? If so that's impressive. I owned a cmax energi for a couple years as a trial run of EV. It was pretty reasonable when allowed to use both but very, painfully slow in ev only. I'm not nearly so negative on phev though - I think they can be absolutely great when they are tuned more like the rav4 prime or the Accord hybrid of 15 years ago. Torque fill on an otherwise adequate but unremarkable gas motor is a substantial net win, and being able to run in EV only mode is a nice side bonus. Full BEV is absolutely the future but if people need a half step to get there PHEV is a good option. I genuinely liked the cmax but it was an unreliable pos if it wasn't driven regularly. Had a bad habit of leaving us stranded. The guy who bought it from me has had no issues though with it as his only car. One of four was a problem.

Viper GTS

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

That's not 5.7 in EV only mode is it? If so that's impressive. I owned a cmax energi for a couple years as a trial run of EV. It was pretty reasonable when allowed to use both but very, painfully slow in ev only. I'm not nearly so negative on phev though - I think they can be absolutely great when they are tuned more like the rav4 prime or the Accord hybrid of 15 years ago. Torque fill on an otherwise adequate but unremarkable gas motor is a substantial net win, and being able to run in EV only mode is a nice side bonus. Full BEV is absolutely the future but if people need a half step to get there PHEV is a good option. I genuinely liked the cmax but it was an unreliable pos if it wasn't driven regularly. Had a bad habit of leaving us stranded. The guy who bought it from me has had no issues though with it as his only car. One of four was a problem.

Viper GTS

Correct-o - thats with hybrid mode of using both.

In just EV mode it's definitely still pretty damn good at 9.2

 

[ultimatebob]

Does anyone else hate this idea as much as I do?

https://www.engadget.com/tesla-model-s-x-touchscreen-gear-shifter-144543806.html

Give me a damn gear shift lever, please. I don't want to have to worry about the touch screen locking up while I'm trying to back out of a parking lot or make a three point turn.

I guess that I'm cool with getting rid of physical controls once Tesla has perfected self-driving and we don't need them anymore. Until then, stop making bad UI decisions that are going to get someone hurt.

 

[sdifox]

Does anyone else hate this idea as much as I do?

https://www.engadget.com/tesla-model-s-x-touchscreen-gear-shifter-144543806.html

Give me a damn gear shift lever, please. I don't want to have to worry about the touch screen locking up while I'm trying to back out of a parking lot or make a three point turn.

I guess that I'm cool with getting rid of physical controls once Tesla has perfected self-driving and we don't need them anymore. Until then, stop making bad UI decisions that are going to get someone hurt.

You mean you don't want to control your car like a RC, a la Bond?

 

[WelshBloke]

Does anyone else hate this idea as much as I do?

https://www.engadget.com/tesla-model-s-x-touchscreen-gear-shifter-144543806.html

Give me a damn gear shift lever, please. I don't want to have to worry about the touch screen locking up while I'm trying to back out of a parking lot or make a three point turn.

I guess that I'm cool with getting rid of physical controls once Tesla has perfected self-driving and we don't need them anymore. Until then, stop making bad UI decisions that are going to get someone hurt.

Personally I think it should be illegal to sell cars where any driving controls aren't tactile and that they must be usable without taking your eyes off the road.
I'm not a fan of any touchscreen stuff in a car if I'm honest. Anything that encourages you to pay less attention to what's happening outside the car should be discouraged.

Also a touchscreen to select forward or reverse sounds like a pain in the arse when you are doing any manoeuvre that involves looking behind you.

 

[Red Squirrel]

They really need to end this touch BS with cars. I'm lucky enough to have a 2009 where everything is a regular button but I hate the fact that everything is trending towards touch screen. How is that even legal when using an ipad in a car is not? I should not need to fiddle around with menus and crap to do simple things like adjust the radio or temperature.

I'm not too familiar with how cars work, but does all that stuff basically just talk with the ECU or is it more complicated than that? I wonder if it will be possible to buy after market user interfaces that plug in and just work. Basically it would be a kit with dash, shifter etc.

 

[manly]

They really need to end this touch BS with cars. I'm lucky enough to have a 2009 where everything is a regular button but I hate the fact that everything is trending towards touch screen. How is that even legal when using an ipad in a car is not? I should not need to fiddle around with menus and crap to do simple things like adjust the radio or temperature.

I'm not too familiar with how cars work, but does all that stuff basically just talk with the ECU or is it more complicated than that? I wonder if it will be possible to buy after market user interfaces that plug in and just work. Basically it would be a kit with dash, shifter etc.

There's nothing inherently wrong about a touchscreen if it's strictly supplemental in nature; the problem is Tesla is eliminating controls and wiring to simplify manufacturing. You're not going to be able to buy any aftermarket kits because there's nowhere to plug it into.

I'm all for simplicity in UX, but a car should have a basic set of physical controls such as shifter and climate.

 

[ondma]

There's nothing inherently wrong about a touchscreen if it's strictly supplemental in nature; the problem is Tesla is eliminating controls and wiring to simplify manufacturing. You're not going to be able to buy any aftermarket kits because there's nowhere to plug it into.

I'm all for simplicity in UX, but a car should have a basic set of physical controls such as shifter and climate.

Yea, this. Touch has its place. I use Android auto in my car with a touch screen. It works well using music playing software (Spotify) and navigation (Google maps). If one plans carefully, it is *very* rare to have to use the touchscreen while moving. However, my car still has physical controls for gear selection, volume, and climate control. I would not want to have to go into a touch menu to adjust these.

 

[ponyo]

No door handles on the Cybertruck. 😎

https://twitter.com/x/status/1375073328424124423

 

[Red Squirrel]

All fun and games until there is a fault that shuts down the entire electrical system and now the doors won't open.

 

[WelshBloke]

There's nothing inherently wrong about a touchscreen if it's strictly supplemental in nature; the problem is Tesla is eliminating controls and wiring to simplify manufacturing. You're not going to be able to buy any aftermarket kits because there's nowhere to plug it into.

I'm all for simplicity in UX, but a car should have a basic set of physical controls such as shifter and climate.

Even a supplemental touchsceen control is a distraction. You have to look at a touchscreen rather than the road to use it. I can use the radio and climate controls in my car purely by touch, I've owned a smartphone for way longer than my car but i can barely manage to unlock it without looking at the screen!

Yea, this. Touch has its place. I use Android auto in my car with a touch screen. It works well using music playing software (Spotify) and navigation (Google maps). If one plans carefully, it is *very* rare to have to use the touchscreen while moving. However, my car still has physical controls for gear selection, volume, and climate control. I would not want to have to go into a touch menu to adjust these.

I use Android auto (on the phone) and it has excellent voice control, I can get behind that for incidental things to do with the car.

All fun and games until there is a fault that shuts down the entire electrical system and now the doors won't open.

Or a crash that does something fucky to the electrics. Not a nice thought to be stuck in a cybertruck with its toughened windows and its no door handle doors when those batteries ignite!

 

[ponyo]

Even a supplemental touchsceen control is a distraction. You have to look at a touchscreen rather than the road to use it. I can use the radio and climate controls in my car purely by touch, I've owned a smartphone for way longer than my car but i can barely manage to unlock it without looking at the screen!


I use Android auto (on the phone) and it has excellent voice control, I can get behind that for incidental things to do with the car.


Or a crash that does something fucky to the electrics. Not a nice thought to be stuck in a cybertruck with its toughened windows and its no door handle doors when those batteries ignite!

Future is full self driving. You're going to have all the time in the world to use the touchscreen when you don't have to actively drive. We're not there yet but a car is just big computer on wheels. Touchscreen seems pretty logical when viewed through that lens.

New Model S supposedly has onboard computer that's powerful as Playstation 5. If I didn't Cybertruck on order, I would buy the new Model S. But I'm going to be patient and wait on the Cybertruck because I know it will be worth the wait.

The funkier Tesla makes the Cybertruck, the better. Elon is hoping he can get rid of side mirrors and I support that. The back mirror is supposed to be lcd screen as well. That's great too. I'm ok with no door handles. And I want the yoke steering wheel on the Cybertruck. That's going to be the baddest tank vehicle made for earth and Mars. Can't wait!

 

[WelshBloke]

Future is full self driving. You're going to have all the time in the world to use the touchscreen when you don't have to actively drive. We're not there yet but a car is just big computer on wheels. Touchscreen seems pretty logical when viewed through that lens.

It would be logical to have a touchscreen if you don't have to drive yes, but at the moment you do have to drive so it would be better to have controls that you don't have to actively look at.

And a car is very much not a computer on wheels. At all. At the moment a car is very much controlled by a human driver, and the UX of the car shouldn't be distracting the human from that job.

 

[ondma]

It would be logical to have a touchscreen if you don't have to drive yes, but at the moment you do have to drive so it would be better to have controls that you don't have to actively look at.

And a car is very much not a computer on wheels. At all. At the moment a car is very much controlled by a human driver, and the UX of the car shouldn't be distracting the human from that job.

Even physical controls sometimes require the driver to glance at them to see the settings, and require you to remove your hand from the wheel to operate them. Maybe you are exceptionally skilled and can operate all your audio and HVAC controls (physical ones) without looking at them, but I guarantee there are a lot of people who cant.

 

[Vic]

This thread needs to necro-ed in 10 years, or after the OP has bought an EV, whichever comes first.

 

[Red Squirrel]

Even with full self driving, by law you'll still be required to have both hands on the wheel and be attentive as if you were driving. Manufacturers are not going to want to take the liability should there be an accident even if it's caused by their own software, so you'll be expected to override the software at a moment's notice should the need arise. Chances are this tech will be very invasive too, like AI to make sure your eyes are on the road etc. Self driving is not the utopia people think it will be. Sure it will take some of the thinking out, but it's not like you'll be able to just doze off while the car drives you somewhere. The law would never allow that.

 

[Vic]

All fun and games until there is a fault that shuts down the entire electrical system and now the doors won't open.

You do realize that the technology has improved a bit since your dad's 1975 DeVille, right? I mean, the doors in most cars built in the last 10 years wouldn't open if the entire electrical system shut down, and you don't hear complaining about that, do you?

 

[Vic]

Even with full self driving, by law you'll still be required to have both hands on the wheel and be attentive as if you were driving. Manufacturers are not going to want to take the liability should there be an accident even if it's caused by their own software, so you'll be expected to override the software at a moment's notice should the need arise. Chances are this tech will be very invasive too, like AI to make sure your eyes are on the road etc. Self driving is not the utopia people think it will be. Sure it will take some of the thinking out, but it's not like you'll be able to just doze off while the car drives you somewhere. The law would never allow that.

Sorry, but in the future (20-30 years or so), the law will not only allow that, it will mandate it. As in, it will become illegal to manually operate a vehicle, except in certain rural areas and on the race track. AI doesn't want humans driving because they don't pay attention and/or are generally incompetent anyway. And most importantly because humans are unpredictable.
There are, of course, many hurdles to AV technology, but once crossed the technology will be adopted as the greatest safety innovation since the cell phone. Because I mean, face it, most human beings suck at driving. They really do.

 

[WelshBloke]

Even physical controls sometimes require the driver to glance at them to see the settings, and require you to remove your hand from the wheel to operate them. Maybe you are exceptionally skilled and can operate all your audio and HVAC controls (physical ones) without looking at them, but I guarantee there are a lot of people who cant.

I certainly wouldn't consider myself exceptionally skilled or even competently coordinated but I can certainly turn the radio on or turn the heat up and down without looking at the controls!
In exactly the same way I don't have to look at the pedals to break or accelerate, or look at the gear lever to change gear.

 

[WelshBloke]

Sorry, but in the future (20-30 years or so), the law will not only allow that, it will mandate it. As in, it will become illegal to manually operate a vehicle, except in certain rural areas and on the race track. AI doesn't want humans driving because they don't pay attention and/or are generally incompetent anyway. And most importantly because humans are unpredictable.
There are, of course, many hurdles to AV technology, but once crossed the technology will be adopted as the greatest safety innovation since the cell phone. Because I mean, face it, most human beings suck at driving. They really do.

We aren't going to suddenly make every vehicle that's road legal illegal. Can you imagine how that's going to work?
I get that full automated driving would be a lot easier if every vehicle was automated and meshed together but there's no way that at some point in the next 20 years we are going to scrap all the cars that aren't.

 

[Vic]

We aren't going to suddenly make every vehicle that's road legal illegal. Can you imagine how that's going to work?
I get that full automated driving would be a lot easier if every vehicle was automated and meshed together but there's no way that at some point in the next 20 years we are going to scrap all the cars that aren't.

So first, the current average life of a car is about 12 years. And second, we wouldn't be scrapping those cars, per se, they would just be superficilous, unless they had some other collectible value. Which would be no different than today. Which also BTW is why this all of this change, from ICE to EV to AV, will be organic and market-driven. Consumers will demand these changes. Just wait and see.

 

[ondma]

Sorry, but in the future (20-30 years or so), the law will not only allow that, it will mandate it. As in, it will become illegal to manually operate a vehicle, except in certain rural areas and on the race track. AI doesn't want humans driving because they don't pay attention and/or are generally incompetent anyway. And most importantly because humans are unpredictable.
There are, of course, many hurdles to AV technology, but once crossed the technology will be adopted as the greatest safety innovation since the cell phone. Because I mean, face it, most human beings suck at driving. They really do.

So you want those "generally incompetent" humans designing a self driving car and network and not give you last minute control to over-ride it should the software be defective or fail? OK, whatever.
Seriously, though, I still think full self driving is going to be very much more difficult than some in this forum are projecting. I think you can design some sort of automated driving system for limited areas, based on a designed network, much like light rail. But to attain full self driving in all weather conditions, in all areas, is a formidable task. There are just so many variables and unexpected emergencies that can arise, and the car must either be programmed ahead to recognize them all, or must have AI competent enough to determine what to do in an unplanned emergency.