Our days are numbered...

deustroop

Golden Member
Dec 12, 2010
1,916
354
136
We been down this road before, many times in fact, since 2001, T2/3 pointed out that AI,. when not making coffee, could be a threat. Thing is, Deep Mind is great at games but life is no game. Specifically, there are no rules. Duh !

If , IF threatened, we need just extend an arm and disconnect AI's ol power supply or, my favorite, quick draw the trusty ankle Glock 22 and end the discussion.

Remember ol buddy HAL 9000 ? Yeah, just like that!
 

SaltyNuts

Platinum Member
May 1, 2001
2,399
275
126
We been down this road before, many times in fact, since 2001, T2/3 pointed out that AI,. when not making coffee, could be a threat. Thing is, Deep Mind is great at games but life is no game. Specifically, there are no rules. Duh !

If , IF threatened, we need just extend an arm and disconnect AI's ol power supply or, my favorite, quick draw the trusty ankle Glock 22 and end the discussion.

Remember ol buddy HAL 9000 ? Yeah, just like that!


If only you could realize that just saying, "oh don't worry about machines that can beat our best, we could unplug them" is the functional equivalent of the AI saying "oh, don't worry about badass warrior humans, we can just kill all their moms and no more can be born." No, silly, the machines, just like us, would be wise to that dumb shit and would protect against it. The machines wiser - read the link and see how they out think humans...
 

JTsyo

Lifer
Nov 18, 2007
11,723
880
126
Are they already done with Starcraft? I thought that was the next project.
 

DigDog

Lifer
Jun 3, 2011
13,495
2,120
126
quake is a really bad example because there are human limitation that bots have not managed to replicate yet.

1. you cannot code human-like aim.
aimbots have been around forever and they have *tried* to make them look like human aim, but they can't, because human aim fluctuates depending not just on the target but on various game-environment factors.
As a bot coder, you either make the bot have 100% accuracy (in which case duh, bot wins, but it becomes a parallel of "car runs fast") or you don't, in which case a human could potentially have better accuracy than the bot.
Also no real reason to gimp your bot. In chess, which is going to be a major point of comparison here, you don't make your AI less smart than it can be.

2. bots lose against decisions
in the history of quake there are a ton of videos of pro players beating hackers with 100% acc bots, because the hacker lacks in decisionmaking ability - and in movement as well.
if your Ai has a routine it bases its decisionmaking on, this will soon be evident, giving the human player the ability to predict the AI's movement.
Chess is a far more static, linear game than quake. Knowing what the opponent will do often isn't much of an advantage, compared to a positional advantage in quake, where you can hit and not be hit back.

3. AIs are stupid. And i mean, not that they are dumb, but that AIs are stupid.
Humans challenge other humans. Decisionmaking and fluctuation of aim are aspects of the game skill that the practitioners will be aware of, and try to exploit. There is no fun, and in a sense no challenge in playing against an AI. You will never be able to follow the mental process of an AI because they did not learn the same way that you did.
In quake, specially back when the internet wasn't great and most players were limited to their local server, there was a thing where regional group of players would have their own tactics that were common to that environment, with the relative countermoves as well. So german players would constantly evade, US players wre control-focused, brits would constantly camp, and italians would constantly complain.

back in the 90s when PC development was raging, we had that "they will never build a computer that can beat a human at chess", because the chess players had no idea what a computer was, or how it worked.
AIs - and here i may be wrong, but i'd be curious to know - cannot invent. They can discover, if the source allows for it. And AI is simply a library of moves made by humans. Sometimes there is evidence of a new move in the already existing data, but no human has made the connection, however the AI coders have designed a data-analisys system that allows the AI to mine successfully a new move from said data. But an AI cannot invent something outside of its database, although it can try and be successful through randomness, it doesn't possess creativity. What it does possess is computing power, it's faster than a human, doesn't burn through a limited glucose reservoir, can store more data, and is more precise in recollection and execution. I find none of these things appealing or exciting, not more exciting than a toaster. I mean, a toaster makes better toast than a human, but we're not celebrating toasters, right?
 

Captante

Lifer
Oct 20, 2003
30,277
10,783
136
quake is a really bad example because there are human limitation that bots have not managed to replicate yet.

1. you cannot code human-like aim.
aimbots have been around forever and they have *tried* to make them look like human aim, but they can't, because human aim fluctuates depending not just on the target but on various game-environment factors.
As a bot coder, you either make the bot have 100% accuracy (in which case duh, bot wins, but it becomes a parallel of "car runs fast") or you don't, in which case a human could potentially have better accuracy than the bot.
Also no real reason to gimp your bot. In chess, which is going to be a major point of comparison here, you don't make your AI less smart than it can be.

2. bots lose against decisions
in the history of quake there are a ton of videos of pro players beating hackers with 100% acc bots, because the hacker lacks in decisionmaking ability - and in movement as well.
if your Ai has a routine it bases its decisionmaking on, this will soon be evident, giving the human player the ability to predict the AI's movement.
Chess is a far more static, linear game than quake. Knowing what the opponent will do often isn't much of an advantage, compared to a positional advantage in quake, where you can hit and not be hit back.

3. AIs are stupid. And i mean, not that they are dumb, but that AIs are stupid.
Humans challenge other humans. Decisionmaking and fluctuation of aim are aspects of the game skill that the practitioners will be aware of, and try to exploit. There is no fun, and in a sense no challenge in playing against an AI. You will never be able to follow the mental process of an AI because they did not learn the same way that you did.
In quake, specially back when the internet wasn't great and most players were limited to their local server, there was a thing where regional group of players would have their own tactics that were common to that environment, with the relative countermoves as well. So german players would constantly evade, US players wre control-focused, brits would constantly camp, and italians would constantly complain.

back in the 90s when PC development was raging, we had that "they will never build a computer that can beat a human at chess", because the chess players had no idea what a computer was, or how it worked.
AIs - and here i may be wrong, but i'd be curious to know - cannot invent. They can discover, if the source allows for it. And AI is simply a library of moves made by humans. Sometimes there is evidence of a new move in the already existing data, but no human has made the connection, however the AI coders have designed a data-analisys system that allows the AI to mine successfully a new move from said data. But an AI cannot invent something outside of its database, although it can try and be successful through randomness, it doesn't possess creativity. What it does possess is computing power, it's faster than a human, doesn't burn through a limited glucose reservoir, can store more data, and is more precise in recollection and execution. I find none of these things appealing or exciting, not more exciting than a toaster. I mean, a toaster makes better toast than a human, but we're not celebrating toasters, right?


Exactly!

Creating an unbeatable bot is relatively easy. Creating one you absolutely cannot tell IS a bot not so much.

Really considering how tough plain vanilla "nightmare-mode" bots were when Q3 was first released way back in the day I'd think this wouldn't even be newsworthy.

Xaero

*(Try beating this fella railgun-only for a reminder)