Ouch ! Was showing pictures of Odai and Qusai a good idea ?

[Hayabusa Rider]

Originally posted by: etech

Your logic runs like this, if you hate Ford autos. All Fords are cars. All Fords suck, therefore all cars do. No, that is not logic.

Religion is something that you choose to follow and associate with other people that believe the same way that you do. A car does not choose to be a Ford.

Your logic is flawed in that you are taking inanimate objects and comparing them to people and feelings.

As for the soldiers that committed crimes in Viet Nam, once convicted they were discharged dishonorably from the military and were not eligible for the benefits of service. The military disassociated those soldiers from the military. The Muslims are still claiming Odai and Qusai as Muslims and of their own

To them being Muslim is as fundimental as being an American is to you. Americans can do unAmerican things, and I mean real crimes, not petty differences online. Savotage, murder, even treason. Now they are afforded protection under the Constitution. People who to choose to believe in the Constitution are now condoning unAmerican activities.

Their being Muslims is as fundimental as being American to you.

Regarding VN. Those soldiers were indeed punished. When that make them non Americans?
You could argue that Muslims ought to condem these for what they did, but that is a separate issue. People who defend accused criminals and the protection afforded by the Constitution do not approve of the crime.

Their choosing o follow Muslim law is like you choosing to follow the Consitituion. Neither is wrong.

 

[etech]

Originally posted by: WinstonSmith

Originally posted by: etech

Your logic runs like this, if you hate Ford autos. All Fords are cars. All Fords suck, therefore all cars do. No, that is not logic.

Religion is something that you choose to follow and associate with other people that believe the same way that you do. A car does not choose to be a Ford.

Your logic is flawed in that you are taking inanimate objects and comparing them to people and feelings.

As for the soldiers that committed crimes in Viet Nam, once convicted they were discharged dishonorably from the military and were not eligible for the benefits of service. The military disassociated those soldiers from the military. The Muslims are still claiming Odai and Qusai as Muslims and of their own

To them being Muslim is as fundimental as being an American is to you. Americans can do unAmerican things, and I mean real crimes, not petty differences online. Savotage, murder, even treason. Now they are afforded protection under the Constitution. People who to choose to believe in the Constitution are now condoning unAmerican activities.

Their being Muslims is as fundimental as being American to you.

Regarding VN. Those soldiers were indeed punished. When that make them non Americans?
You could argue that Muslims ought to condem these for what they did, but that is a separate issue. People who defend accused criminals and the protection afforded by the Constitution do not approve of the crime.

Their choosing o follow Muslim law is like you choosing to follow the Consitituion. Neither is wrong.

So you are saying it does not matter how bad they are, how much they actually followed the tenets of Islam, the rest of the Muslim community will support them because they are Muslim.

In contrast when someone in America is found to have broken the law, they are given certain rights but also their right to freedom and if the crime is serious enough their right to live is removed.

I still see a difference. I do like how you have expanded your analogy from truck to soliders and now to national and religious affliations. Keep trying, you might make a point sometime.

 

[DealMonkey]

How about when Catholic priests molest little boys and their superiors forgive them and shuttle them from church to church in order to stay one step ahead of any controversy?

Under their religion (Christianity), no matter what horrible things you do, you're always forgiven if you ask to be.

 

[etech]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey
How about when Catholic priests molest little boys and their superiors forgive them and shuttle them from church to church in order to stay one step ahead of any controversy?

Under their religion (Christianity), no matter what horrible things you do, you're always forgiven if you ask to be.

And that was wrong wasn't it? So what is the problem in pointing out that the Muslims may be wrong for claiming that Odai and Qusai were not really followers of Islam but they are protesting at their non-Muslim treatment by the US?

edit/ The Catholic Church has apparently learned from it's previous mistakes and is changing it's system. Does Islam have any methods to do the same?

 

[Moonbeam]

I still see a difference. I do like how you have expanded your analogy from truck to soliders and now to national and religious affliations. Keep trying, you might make a point sometime.
--------------------------
Winston, this is just etech's parting insult that you have won the argument and he doesn't wish to continue. No need to keep trying, your point was well made in the first of your posts here. You know what they say about horses and water.

 

[etech]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
I still see a difference. I do like how you have expanded your analogy from truck to soliders and now to national and religious affliations. Keep trying, you might make a point sometime.
--------------------------
Winston, this is just etech's parting insult that you have won the argument and he doesn't wish to continue. No need to keep trying, your point was well made in the first of your posts here. You know what they say about horses and water.

This is moonie's way of saying that he has nothing to contribute to the discussion and only wants to troll and insult people.

So much for his being "enlightened".

 

[Moonbeam]

By the way, one of the reasons we honor the dead is because they were, whoever the were in life, beloved by God.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: etech

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
I still see a difference. I do like how you have expanded your analogy from truck to soliders and now to national and religious affliations. Keep trying, you might make a point sometime.
--------------------------
Winston, this is just etech's parting insult that you have won the argument and he doesn't wish to continue. No need to keep trying, your point was well made in the first of your posts here. You know what they say about horses and water.

This is moonie's way of saying that he has nothing to contribute to the discussion and only wants to troll and insult people.

So much for his being "enlightened".

He he ha ha, my contribution was not only earlier in this thread to all the of- base posters, but to you here in the one before this one that was written before I saw yours. So much for being right.

 

[etech]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
By the way, one of the reasons we honor the dead is because they were, whoever the were in life, beloved by God.

Are you saying that you believe Odai and Qusai are now in paradise with their virgins?

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
I still see a difference. I do like how you have expanded your analogy from truck to soliders and now to national and religious affliations. Keep trying, you might make a point sometime.
--------------------------
Winston, this is just etech's parting insult that you have won the argument and he doesn't wish to continue. No need to keep trying, your point was well made in the first of your posts here. You know what they say about horses and water.

Obviously you are right M.

etech, I made every effort to keep this civil, and based my comments based on the article and what was found there. No where did someone mention that Saddam was a great guy or anything of the sort. This is about how the dead are handled there in the Muslim context if you like it or not. The fact that they want bodies to be handled a certain way has no bearing either way on the justification of Saddams actions. Since you choose to twist the argument, and seem hard pressed to do so, I will let others judge our points. As for you, you owe me an apology. I in no way made disparaging comments about you or your ability to make a point in other prior posts. I shall ignore you for the remainder of this thread until you do so.

 

[Moonbeam]

Sorry for the he he ha ha, it was intended to get down to the level of what was thrown at me. Alot could be avoided if you simply said that Winston was right. You won't loose an eye or anything. It will make you strong. It's just ridiculous, no matter how badly your emotional need to tar all Moslems, to suggest, for example, that Christians or Jews or Moslems won't or shouldn't bury even the evil with dignity. Ever been to a Mafia funeral. You basically tried to slur one of the real faiths.

 

[Moonbeam]

Well you beat me again, Winston.

etech, I said what I wanted to say. I am not the Judge. Are you saying you are?

 

[etech]

I shall ignore you for the remainder of this thread until you do so.

Am I supposed to be all broken up now?


As for your attempt moonie, you have missed the point completely again. Some muslims are trying to use the deaths of what could be argued as two of the most despicable people on the world as a political ploy to attack the US. They ignore the reality that proof had to be made to the Iraqi people. They ignore that those two never followed the tenets of Islam in any way and yet now they say that they deserve burial under Islam traditions. My pointing that out does not slur all of Islam. That is only your way of trolling these forums and taking the discussion away from its intended topic.

Can you actually add something to the discussion or only troll?

 

[Moonbeam]

Am I supposed to be all broken up now? (No, you have to be what you are)
-----------

As for your attempt moonie, you have missed the point completely again. (Here come the edit of the original post to sort of clean it up----->) Some muslims are trying to use the deaths of what could be argued as two of the most despicable people on the world as a political ploy to attack the US. (True, some are probably doing just that. That does not mean that others, even the majority are genuinely offended) They ignore the reality that proof had to be made to the Iraqi people. (This is your reality. We heard that on the news. I have yet to see a poll of the entire population that says The people over there are too unsophisticated to take other people's word or that dental and DNA evidence is insufficient for them. Careful with the word reality. It may not be what it seems.) They ignore that those two never followed the tenets of Islam in any way and yet now they say that they deserve burial under Islam traditions. (This is where you ignore the fact that this is immaterial. Every religious faith burys all its dead with dignity, ALL.) My pointing that out does not slur all of Islam. (It does exactly that. You won't face the fact that the dead are buried with dignity no matter how unworthy of dignity they were in life) That is only your way of trolling (Calling my posts trolling is trolling. You don't like being shown that you are wrong. You are apparently too small minded to admit it. Blow smoke up your ass all you want. You are simply blind here. Sorry. )these forums and taking the discussion away from its intended topic.(You did a piss poor job of making your point. If you wanted to say that certain journalists were trying to raise an phony issue against the US, do it without sliming Islam and the faithful in the process. You are right and don't need the weight of prejudice to make that different case.


Can you actually add something to the discussion or only troll?<---------Edit: This was not supposed to be here. It's a Klingon.

 

[flavio]

Originally posted by: etech
Does the Muslim world really want to claim that Odai and Qusai were Muslims and were entitled to a certain form of treatment because of that. If so, then all of the actions that have ever been taken by the two brothers can also be attributed to their Muslim faith.

They can't have it both ways.

Total ignorance. Everytime a catholic or protestant does something wrong is that a reflection on the religions as a whole?

No it's not. Study some logic before you use your keyboard again.

 

[Michael]

My point of view is different. A reporter found a few people who complained about something the Americans did. This time it was the way the bodies were treated.

Of course, even a little investigation will find that the Muslims do the same to each other all the time. It reminds me of the argument that fighting during Ramadan would be such a horrible thing to do. Then a bunch of historians pointed out that Muslims had a long, long history of fighting against each other and against "infidels" during Ramadan.

Since the Muslim faith essentially does not recognize people leving Islam, it is technically correct to say that Odai and Qusai were Muslim. Therefore it is probably technically correct to say that Muslim custom calls for bodies to be treated a certain way.

That's such a minor side issue and so tiny compared to the benefit of releasing the pictures, that the point should probably be ignored.

Michael

 

[Phuz]

That's such a minor side issue and so tiny compared to the benefit of releasing the pictures, that the point should probably be ignored.

Right

 

[etech]

Originally posted by: flavio

Originally posted by: etech
Does the Muslim world really want to claim that Odai and Qusai were Muslims and were entitled to a certain form of treatment because of that. If so, then all of the actions that have ever been taken by the two brothers can also be attributed to their Muslim faith.

They can't have it both ways.

Total ignorance. Everytime a catholic or protestant does something wrong is that a reflection on the religions as a whole?

No it's not. Study some logic before you use your keyboard again.

It depends on the reaction of that group to the person's transgressions.

If they ignore the "evil" deeds than yes, it does reflect on the religion. That is one of the reasons so much ire was raised towards the Catholic church. It ignored the actions of the priests and let them continue. On the other hand if it had condemned that action from the start and distanced(removed from the priesthood) those priests there would not have been nearly as large a scandal or distrust in the Catholic church.

Moonie, can you show me one article that shows where all of the Muslims in mass graves in Iraq were buried under Islamic tradition? If not, can you show me an article where Muslims are complaining about that fact? Why are some now complaing about Odai and Qusai now if not to make a cheap political ploy. It seems that you have bought into to it hook line and sinker. But then it is against the US military. I shouldn't be at all surprised that you would.

I could bring up what happened to the soldiers in Somalia or Dan Pearl in Pakistan but then according to Islam they are just infidels and what happened to their bodies does not matter.

 

[Tripleshot]

I hope they stuffed the body cavity with BACON!

 

[Michael]

Phuz - I can't tell if you're making a sarcastic aside and saying that releasing the photographs was not minor because it violated the Geneva Convention in some way or if you're just agreeing that the complaints that a reporter dredged up are minor and can be ignored.

I've seen a tiny bit of debate about the Geneva Convention and the photos. Out of curiousity, were the brothers in uniform and fighting as part of a military unit when they were killed?

Michael

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Michael-

I think it good to understand that we are an occupying force. To us, this may seem a minor concern, but how does that actually play out with the Iraqis? As I said elsewhere, I understand why the US did this, but people who do not want to believe they are dead will think them forged. I really don't know the best balance, but it is a concern for a number of Iraqis. A big one? I don't know. Ought to be seriously considered though.

 

[Michael]

Since the article quoted Saudis and others, I can't tell from the news being discussed here. It seems that the news of the deaths was celebrated, so I think the Iraquis are taking it OK. The ones that hate us will do so regardless of the photographs being released.

Michael

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: etech

Originally posted by: flavio

Originally posted by: etech
Does the Muslim world really want to claim that Odai and Qusai were Muslims and were entitled to a certain form of treatment because of that. If so, then all of the actions that have ever been taken by the two brothers can also be attributed to their Muslim faith.

They can't have it both ways.

Total ignorance. Everytime a catholic or protestant does something wrong is that a reflection on the religions as a whole?

No it's not. Study some logic before you use your keyboard again.

It depends on the reaction of that group to the person's transgressions.

If they ignore the "evil" deeds than yes, it does reflect on the religion. That is one of the reasons so much ire was raised towards the Catholic church. It ignored the actions of the priests and let them continue. On the other hand if it had condemned that action from the start and distanced(removed from the priesthood) those priests there would not have been nearly as large a scandal or distrust in the Catholic church.

Moonie, can you show me one article that shows where all of the Muslims in mass graves in Iraq were buried under Islamic tradition? If not, can you show me an article where Muslims are complaining about that fact? Why are some now complaing about Odai and Qusai now if not to make a cheap political ploy. It seems that you have bought into to it hook line and sinker. But then it is against the US military. I shouldn't be at all surprised that you would.

I could bring up what happened to the soldiers in Somalia or Dan Pearl in Pakistan but then according to Islam they are just infidels and what happened to their bodies does not matter.

I can show you no articles where they were or weren't. The point is irrelevant. I don't know of any articles where anybody complained of that fact, no. I would bet that there's probably few who aren't pissed off they, their family members, were killed. Are you saying Moslems don't care about their families or that they are murdered? Are you saying they don't care how the bodies were treated? Are you saying that any complainers wouldn't have been executed too? Are you saying that once oppression has been lifted the Iraqis aren't going to complain if we act like Saddam did? Are you saying we should stifle their protest? Did I not already agree with you that some may be taking cheap shots? Did I not already point out that this does not mean that all complaints are of this type? Isn't it obvious to you that I couldn't have bought anything hook line and sinker since I've already agreed? Why are you trying to create a victory over a point I never opposed? Why do you pretend the military has a bearing on the issue? Is it because you have a need to defend everything they do? Why do you maintain that Islam is to blame for what happened in Somalia of to Dan Pearl in Pakistan? Why do you condemn a religion for what the people do? Do you hate Christians too?

Like Trip you're full of anger and need something to kick. It's a sad and dangerous thing to tar a whole religion because of the actions of some. It's what you accused me of doing with the Military. Try to understand that a few people who will make political hay over an issue doesn't mean that there deeper level to that same issue for others. Hate that can't discriminate is called blind rage.

========================

Originally posted by: Tripleshot
I hope they stuffed the body cavity with BACON!

Way to let your emotions run your head there, Trip. I believe the people you would offend worship the same God as you. It's rather sad to see you promote sacrilege so openly. Of what use is your religion if it can't help you manage such feelings?

 

[etech]

moonie,

Did I not already agree with you that some may be taking cheap shots?

So that's all this complaining about the treatment of the two brothers is, a cheap shot and it is recognized by both of us as such.

The rest of your trolling I see no need to bother with.

 

[Tripleshot]

Way to let your emotions run your head there, Trip. I believe the people you would offend worship the same God as you. It's rather sad to see you promote sacrilege so openly. Of what use is your religion if it can't help you manage such feelings?

Wrong, bucko. They do not worship the same God as I. What ever makes you think they do? My God would not inspire suicedal people to hijack airliners and fly them into buildings. My God would embrace all, not call those without the truth on there side to make all others "infidels". I am a Christain. I believe in Jesus Christ, not Muhammad. Muhammad isn't even in the same league of prophets of old. He was a renegade rebel that came 600 years after the attoinment. Yet Islam hangs all there belief on the words of this man, in whatever context suits them for their immediate purpose.

I will never apoligize for my stance on Islam and muslums, until they are educated and change their attitude on ours.

It's less about hatred and a bunch about pity and saddness. This is a screwed up world still. We have a long way to go for "world peace". It won't happen in my lifetime or my childrens grandchildren. But I would press for that regardless. Time is an eternity. We have lots of eternity to deal with.