Ouch! Creationists Take A Beating?

[kogase]

Originally posted by: Greyd
The funny thing is that I can almost guarantee that the majority of people who slam the Bible have never read it in its entirety, even once. In addition to that, i can pretty much guarantee that a higher percentage of people slamming the bible here have never taken the time to study the historical, archaeological and cultural aspects of the Bible. Yet there are so many of the same people that BLINDLY follow the belief that the bible is false and/or fake.

Then there's that tiny, tiny percentage of people that have done all of the above. Taking that one religious studies class in college does not count. Neither does visiting those skeptic forums that many seem to run to. I'm talking real genuine study - for at least SOME period of years. When those people disagree with the validity with the Bible - I am more likely to respect their opinion.

Many people slam Christianity because of the same reason they slam other people/things in society. It gives them a sense of purpose, a moral "soap box" to stand on, to put it lightly.
It's interesting that so many people claim that Christianity is "nothing" yet expend vast amounts of energy to deride it. If it was really "nothing," why so much effort? Because it makes people feel superior as they try to enlarge their intellectual "e-penis."

There have been a few, VERY few times that religious debate has actually been intellectual and rigorous here on ATOT. I loved debating in those posts because it challenged me and I thought about questions that I had never encountered or knew the answer to. The more I looked into the answers to these questions, the more it strengthened my faith.

Unfortunately, most "debates" here on the forums are not that at all. Rather just bickering, baiting and mocking. This attitude, in the absence of true genuine intellectual debate, just goes to show that most "anti-Christians" can follow their "beliefs" just as blindly as Christians are accused of doing.

Why would I need to read the whole thing? I've already read the pertinent parts. Of course, the pertinent parts are those that form the core of the Christian religion, and reek most prominently of bullsh|t. But you're saying because there's going to be one little part I haven't read tucked away in the far reaches of the Old Testament that is founded in historical fact, I may not be "getting" how Noah putting two of every animal on a ship and repopulating the Earth could really happen? Please.

 

[JasonSix78]

Originally posted by: BD2003

It definitely would seem contradictory for those who have read a bit of the Old Testament and then skipped to the New Testament. If you really took a look at the Bible as a whole then you would see that, instead of it being a contradictory, it would be more of how the relationship between God and man evolved over time. All Christians have to take the Bible as a whole or not at all.

I assure you that Christianity, in and of itself, is not evolving and it never will. People are the ones evolving and for a Christian that should never happen.

If anything seems contradictory to me, its those two paragraphs, one after another. For one, I've been to church maybe three times in my whole life, and I certainly seen priests take verse from the bible and use them on their own. It would seem fairly ridiculous to me to have to take every other verse into account in order to properly discuss a single one.

On the one hand you state the bible is a record of the evolution between man and god, and right afterwards, you state that christianity, the institution which is to a christian, the middleman between man and god, does not evolve, it is the people that are evolving, but good christian is exempt from that, so what accounts for the "evolution" of the relationship between man and god if neither the people nor the faith have any ability to change over time?

That's one of the reasons I responded to your post specifically, I wanted to help you understand. You said that in one part it tells people to kill non-believers and then another part says to turn the other cheek. I perfectly understand why that would seem contradictory to someone who doesn't know a lot about scripture. It's on the same lines of skipping to the fourth chapter in the first book of a series of two novels, reading it, then skipping to the last book and reading a chapter. It's not going to make much sense to you is it? You have to read the series as a whole to understand the transistion through the story and how everything ties in with one another to get the big picture. When a priest, pastor, minister, etc. preaches on a sermon he'll usually show verses throughout the Bible that has to do with the topic he's discussing.

The Bible is the history of how the relationship of God and man evolved over a long period of time. This story has not changed, neither have the teachings of Christ (New Testament). The only part that presently should evolve is the Christians personal relationship with Christ. What I meant by the people (Christians) evolving has to do more with how Christians relate with changes in society. For instance, Christ teaches that if you look at a woman and lust after her, you've committed adultery in your heart and it is the same as actually sleeping with her in God's eyes. Society has become more tolerant to sex before marriage, woman showing more skin in public areas (like TV, magazines, and the internet), so some Christians say "Hey, so many people are doing this so it must not be that bad." So they start thinking it's ok to do it themselves even though it is contrary to what Christ teaches. That's what I was getting at, sorry I didn't clarify more.

-Jason

 

[DAGTA]

Originally posted by: Greyd
The funny thing is that I can almost guarantee that the majority of people who slam the Bible have never read it in its entirety, even once. In addition to that, i can pretty much guarantee that a higher percentage of people slamming the bible here have never taken the time to study the historical, archaeological and cultural aspects of the Bible. Yet there are so many of the same people that BLINDLY follow the belief that the bible is false and/or fake.

Then there's that tiny, tiny percentage of people that have done all of the above. Taking that one religious studies class in college does not count. Neither does visiting those skeptic forums that many seem to run to. I'm talking real genuine study - for at least SOME period of years. When those people disagree with the validity with the Bible - I am more likely to respect their opinion.

Many people slam Christianity because of the same reason they slam other people/things in society. It gives them a sense of purpose, a moral "soap box" to stand on, to put it lightly.
It's interesting that so many people claim that Christianity is "nothing" yet expend vast amounts of energy to deride it. If it was really "nothing," why so much effort? Because it makes people feel superior as they try to enlarge their intellectual "e-penis."

There have been a few, VERY few times that religious debate has actually been intellectual and rigorous here on ATOT. I loved debating in those posts because it challenged me and I thought about questions that I had never encountered or knew the answer to. The more I looked into the answers to these questions, the more it strengthened my faith.

Unfortunately, most "debates" here on the forums are not that at all. Rather just bickering, baiting and mocking. This attitude, in the absence of true genuine intellectual debate, just goes to show that most "anti-Christians" can follow their "beliefs" just as blindly as Christians are accused of doing.

Great post!

 

[BD2003]

Originally posted by: JasonSix78

Originally posted by: BD2003

It definitely would seem contradictory for those who have read a bit of the Old Testament and then skipped to the New Testament. If you really took a look at the Bible as a whole then you would see that, instead of it being a contradictory, it would be more of how the relationship between God and man evolved over time. All Christians have to take the Bible as a whole or not at all.

I assure you that Christianity, in and of itself, is not evolving and it never will. People are the ones evolving and for a Christian that should never happen.

If anything seems contradictory to me, its those two paragraphs, one after another. For one, I've been to church maybe three times in my whole life, and I certainly seen priests take verse from the bible and use them on their own. It would seem fairly ridiculous to me to have to take every other verse into account in order to properly discuss a single one.

On the one hand you state the bible is a record of the evolution between man and god, and right afterwards, you state that christianity, the institution which is to a christian, the middleman between man and god, does not evolve, it is the people that are evolving, but good christian is exempt from that, so what accounts for the "evolution" of the relationship between man and god if neither the people nor the faith have any ability to change over time?

That's one of the reasons I responded to your post specifically, I wanted to help you understand. You said that in one part it tells people to kill non-believers and then another part says to turn the other cheek. I perfectly understand why that would seem contradictory to someone who doesn't know a lot about scripture. It's on the same lines of skipping to the fourth chapter in the first book of a series of two novels, reading it, then skipping to the last book and reading a chapter. It's not going to make much sense to you is it? You have to read the series as a whole to understand the transistion through the story and how everything ties in with one another to get the big picture. When a priest, pastor, minister, etc. preaches on a sermon he'll usually show verses throughout the Bible that has to do with the topic he's discussing.

The Bible is the history of how the relationship of God and man evolved over a long period of time. This story has not changed, neither have the teachings of Christ (New Testament). The only part that presently should evolve is the Christians personal relationship with Christ. What I meant by the people (Christians) evolving has to do more with how Christians relate with changes in society. For instance, Christ teaches that if you look at a woman and lust after her, you've committed adultery in your heart and it is the same as actually sleeping with her in God's eyes. Society has become more tolerant to sex before marriage, woman showing more skin in public areas (like TV, magazines, and the internet), so some Christians say "Hey, so many people are doing this so it must not be that bad." So they start thinking it's ok to do it themselves even though it is contrary to what Christ teaches. That's what I was getting at, sorry I didn't clarify more.

-Jason

I still disagree with the sentiment - to be perfectly honest, it sounds like a convoluted justifcation.

If the bible is to be taken literally, than it must be taken *literally*. One cannot be expected to consider the context of the bible as a whole to every application of a single verse. One verse I have in question: Deuteronomy 13 6-10.

If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which [is] as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;
[Namely], of the gods of the people which [are] round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the [one] end of the earth even unto the [other] end of the earth;
Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:
But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.
And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.

Thats going to have to be put into some wicked context for it to not mean exactly what it's saying if it is supposed to be literal. I'd certainly like to hear it.

In theory, christianity doesnt "evolve". But in practice, it does. Taking the catholic church for example - decisions that popes have made over time have certainly altered the course of catholicism. If other popes were elected, surely some decisions would have been made differently. Hell, even the fact that there is more than one sect of christianity is evidence of its evolution as an institution.

 

[Chadder007]

I donno....they just found a T-Rex bone with soft tissue inside of it. Which puts major doubts with the system of dating that scientists have been using all of this time.
How would tissue stay soft within a bone for 70 million years?

 

[BD2003]

Originally posted by: Chadder007
I donno....they just found a T-Rex bone with soft tissue inside of it. Which puts major doubts with the system of dating that scientists have been using all of this time.
How would tissue stay soft within a bone for 70 million years?

If its properly sealed from the environment, it will last as long as the seal holds. When the bone calcifies and solidifies, it certainly creates a very tight seal - in a few cases, seal enough to keep it nice and soft for millions of years.

Believe me, it is LONG past the point that there is any doubt in the validity of evolution or radioactive dating. Radioactive dating isnt the only proof there is that the earth is older than 4000 years - theres dozens if not hundreds of techniques and evidence that shatter that myth conclusively. Sure, there are still those that find a thing here, and find a thing there, thinking theyve disproved it all, and might convince a few scientifically ignorant people of that, but it wont get very far past the scientifically uneducated.

 

[eits]

egg came first in order to create the chicken. there could have been a mutation causing the egg to give rise to a chicken.

 

[KarenMarie]

Originally posted by: Tab

:thumbsup: I plan to read the Bible over the summer, any advice?

My advice... take it very, very seriously, but not very literally. Keep in mind that it was written by MAN and as divine as the inspiration was, it was still thru man's limited languages and they were products of their society.

Also take into consideration that it was translated many times over the years and as any bi lingual person can attest, there are some words that just dont translate. Hence one word can change the entire meaning.

persnally, I take it as.... the Old Testament was history, to teach us what being a servant was like. The New Testament is like a guideline for what God wants for us and what He expects from us. To help us try to live life aspiring to be worthy of the gift of Christ and enjoy all the riches that comes with it.

 

[Kirby]

haven't read all posts, but just to throw something out, don't most ppl believe in a higher power?

 

[DAGTA]

Originally posted by: KarenMarie

Originally posted by: Tab

:thumbsup: I plan to read the Bible over the summer, any advice?

My advice... take it very, very seriously, but not very literally. Keep in mind that it was written by MAN and as divine as the inspiration was, it was still thru man's limited languages and they were products of their society.

Also take into consideration that it was translated many times over the years and as any bi lingual person can attest, there are some words that just dont translate. Hence one word can change the entire meaning.

persnally, I take it as.... the Old Testament was history, to teach us what being a servant was like. The New Testament is like a guideline for what God wants for us and what He expects from us. To help us try to live life aspiring to be worthy of the gift of Christ and enjoy all the riches that comes with it.

I think this is excellent advice! I'd also throw in that the Old Testament has several parts that get really boring. You might want to read the New Testament first. You won't understand all of the history and prophecy links, but I think it's more likely it'll hold your interest and then you can start linking things when you read the Old Testament.

Best wishes! The first time I read the Bible it took me about a year, if I remember correctly.

 

[DigDug]

My advice... take it very, very seriously, but not very literally.

You heathen. How dare you tell him that the bible is man's work? There are a million Christians who would have your head for this. That's right! Your brethren would kill you for such a statement. What does that tell you about what you, and they, believe in?

 

[EatSpam]

Originally posted by: Tab

:thumbsup: I plan to read the Bible over the summer, any advice?

Plan to be an atheist by fall. Oh, and have lots of coffee or other caffeinated beverages handy.

 

[crystal]

Originally posted by: mercanucaribe
The true Creation story:

In the beginning there was an empty darkness. The only thing in this void was Nyx, a bird with black wings. With the wind she laid a golden egg and for ages she sat upon this egg. Finally life began to stir in the egg and out of it rose Eros, the god of love. One half of the shell rose into the air and became the sky and the other became the Earth. Eros named the sky Uranus and the Earth he named Gaia. Then Eros made them fall in love.

Uranus and Gaia had many children together and eventually they had grandchildren. Some of their children become afraid of the power of their children. Kronus, in an effort to protect himself, swallowed his children when they were still infants. However, his wife Rhea hid their youngest child. She gave him a rock wrapped in swaddling clothes, which he swallowed, thinking it was his son.

Once the child, Zeus, had reached manhood his mother instructed him on how to trick his father to give up his brothers and sisters. Once this was accomplished the children fought a mighty war against their father. After much fighting the younger generation won. With Zeus as their leader, they began to furnish Gaia with life and Uranus with stars.

Soon the Earth lacked only two things: man and animals. Zeus summoned his sons Prometheus (fore-thought) and Epimetheus (after-thought). He told them to go to Earth and create men and animals and give them each a gift.

Prometheus set to work forming men in the image of the gods and Epimetheus worked on the animals. As Epimetheus worked he gave each animal he created one of the gifts. After Epimetheus had completed his work Prometheus finally finished making men. However when he went to see what gift to give man Epimetheus shamefacedly informed him that he had foolishly used all the gifts.

Man, that sounds like dragonball z. Or maybe dragonball z base on that.
Zeus = Goku. 😛

 

[mezrah]

Originally posted by: kogase

Originally posted by: KarenMarie
That is not what I mean. The example you use directly affects ppl who dont believe, therefore their voicing is undersandable.

His point actually hits the nail on the head. I make fun of Christians not because they're beliefs are stupid (I can keep that to myselves), but because in this country right now Christians are one of the most vocal and obnoxious advocacy groups. Three decades ago it was feminists and militant blacks, and conservatives ragged on them (rightfully so). Now Christians are doing the same thing, but conservative's mouths are shut because Christians now form a large part of their constituancy. Well I'm not a conservative, and fundamentalist Christians are getting on my nerves, so I'm gonna be vocal about it. I don't give a damn about Judaism, Buddhism, Taoism, Hinduism, etc. because they aren't in my face with their beliefs. As soon as the evangelism from Christians ends so will the hostility towards their beliefs.

I'm a Christian, and I have to agree with what you are saying. The "fundies" are really giving Christians a bad name.

 

[Dravic]

Originally posted by: Nutdotnet

Originally posted by: JackBurton

Originally posted by: zanieladie
Blech! I don't buy any of that evolution mumbo jumbo.

God said it. I believe it. That settles it.

No. Man said God said it, and you believe it.

Amen to that! 🙂

QAFT

 

[phantom309]

Originally posted by: DAGTA

Originally posted by: Greyd
The funny thing is that I can almost guarantee that the majority of people who slam the Bible have never read it in its entirety, even once. In addition to that, i can pretty much guarantee that a higher percentage of people slamming the bible here have never taken the time to study the historical, archaeological and cultural aspects of the Bible. Yet there are so many of the same people that BLINDLY follow the belief that the bible is false and/or fake.

Then there's that tiny, tiny percentage of people that have done all of the above. Taking that one religious studies class in college does not count. Neither does visiting those skeptic forums that many seem to run to. I'm talking real genuine study - for at least SOME period of years. When those people disagree with the validity with the Bible - I am more likely to respect their opinion.

Many people slam Christianity because of the same reason they slam other people/things in society. It gives them a sense of purpose, a moral "soap box" to stand on, to put it lightly.
It's interesting that so many people claim that Christianity is "nothing" yet expend vast amounts of energy to deride it. If it was really "nothing," why so much effort? Because it makes people feel superior as they try to enlarge their intellectual "e-penis."

There have been a few, VERY few times that religious debate has actually been intellectual and rigorous here on ATOT. I loved debating in those posts because it challenged me and I thought about questions that I had never encountered or knew the answer to. The more I looked into the answers to these questions, the more it strengthened my faith.

Unfortunately, most "debates" here on the forums are not that at all. Rather just bickering, baiting and mocking. This attitude, in the absence of true genuine intellectual debate, just goes to show that most "anti-Christians" can follow their "beliefs" just as blindly as Christians are accused of doing.

Great post!

It is a good post, but the vast majority of Christians who criticise evolution clearly don't understand it or the scientific method either.

 

[Robor]

I don't know if you'd call me agnostic or athiest because I'm not sure myself but I'm definitely opposed to the current pressing of beliefs from the 'religious right' in this country. The problem is the hard core Christians can't grasp the fact that not everyone shares their beliefs or wants their help. I'm one of those 'live and let live' people. I'm fine with people believing in whatever or whoever they want right up until it starts to harm those who don't share their beliefs.

If two people want to live together and (gasp) have sex before marriage or (gasp) practice birth control who does it hurt? If that couple has an unplanned pregnancy and wants to abort it (within a reasonable time period) they should be able to. If someone wants to spend their life with someone of the sex it should be accepted as their choice. If science can eliminate certain birth defects through gene research or use stem cells to cure diseases it should be allowed if not outright supported. I could go on and on. I don't agree with a lot of things about different religions but it's not my place to judge them. My problem is when religion is used to influence law in society.