Ouch! Creationists Take A Beating?

[Whisper]

Originally posted by: FrancesBeansRevenge

Originally posted by: Whisper

Originally posted by: HermDogg

Originally posted by: Injury

Originally posted by: KarenMarie
i dont get why ppl who DONT believe something feel the need to go out of their way to poke at ppl who do? Especially at holiday time. Why not just leave them alone and let them enjoy themselves?

Why be so bothered about it that they need stir the pot?

:thumbsup:

It's not like we're all going to read a post and say to ourselves...

"MY WORD! WHAT THE HELL HAVE I BEEN DOING???? TIME TO GO BREAK SOME 'COMMANDMENTS'!"

Even if a superior being was proven false, I would still go to church because it helps me get in touch with my morales and ethics. You don't need to be a christian to understand and agree with the values that it teaches.

This is why many atheists are "militant." Statements like these scare the absolute bejeezus out of me. Basically, what you're saying is that if you stopped going to church, you would lose your sense of morals and ethics. "The only thing that stops me from doing bad things is going to church" is not a comforting statement.

I didn't gather that from what he said at all. I took his statement to mean that even if God were somehow proven not to exist, he would still attend church because it helps him "get in touch with [his] morales and ethics." Didn't mention anything about actions. I'd take it to mean he just enjoys the time of quiet introspection and self-reflection that can often accompany a trip to church, temple, or wherever.

Why would a church get a person 'in touch with morals and ethics' anymore than a park unless one depends on a belief in a higher power in order to control themselves?
I also don't find it very comforting.

My morals and ethics are based of humanism... I have no mystical judgement sitting over my head ensuring I do the right thing.... I do the right thing simply because its the right thing to do.

The park you described is what I intended to capture when I said "wherever." And I do see your point; it's tough to reason why someone would go to church if they didn't believe in something. But perhaps some people just like the atmosphere, or maybe all that nice incense.

Whatever the case, we all have little inconsistencies and weirdnesses about us. So long as they don't interfere in the lives of other people, I see nothing wrong with them.

As far as the morals and ethics go, I think that in many cases, people who are "religious" tend to do the right thing for the same reasons as you--it just feels nice, and it's what you know to be right. But then you bring up the entire altruism/selfishness debate, which still hasn't been resolved.

Good times, good times 🙂

 

[KarenMarie]

Originally posted by: FrancesBeansRevenge

Originally posted by: KarenMarie
But I still fail to see why ppl who do not believe feel the need to take pot shots at those who do.

It's human nature unfortunately.

I also can't figure out why people who believe feel the need to tell those who don't that their 'eternal soul' in danger.

While both sides are guilty of petty sniping and such I will say that NO atheist or agnostic has ever knocked on my door telling me I need to investigate their belief (or lack thereof)..

Don't pretend like 'spreading the word' isn't a integral part of Christianity.

Well, I was really hoping not to get into this... but since you brought it up... 😉

I think that if someone tells you that your eternal soul is in danger, you have every right to tell them that you do not believe and why. Quote all the scientific facts, or just tell them to piss off. that is not what i was meaning. if someone comes to you on a Sunday and tells you that, is it necessary to spend the next three years taking pot shots at all ppl of faith? Or just when you are confronted? Is it ok to take pot shots at all religions and all ppl, or just those that get in your face?

That is my point.

And preaching/witnessing/spreading the word... it was not supposed to be what it has become. Christians are supposed to live in the Word. Set an example in the Word. Carry yourself and enjoy the riches of the Word. Gleam and glow in the Word. If it is genuine, ppl will 'want some of what he's got' .... it is not supposed to be standing on street corners with pamphlets and 'REPENT, the end nigh' signs or trying to convert ppl thru persuasion. Those are the extremist and putting all Christians and ppl of faith into that pot is akin to putting all Muslims into the extremist pot.

it is just something that i cannot understand why ppl will do.

 

[BD2003]

Originally posted by: KarenMarie

Originally posted by: FrancesBeansRevenge

Originally posted by: KarenMarie
But I still fail to see why ppl who do not believe feel the need to take pot shots at those who do.

It's human nature unfortunately.

I also can't figure out why people who believe feel the need to tell those who don't that their 'eternal soul' in danger.

While both sides are guilty of petty sniping and such I will say that NO atheist or agnostic has ever knocked on my door telling me I need to investigate their belief (or lack thereof)..

Don't pretend like 'spreading the word' isn't a integral part of Christianity.

Well, I was really hoping not to get into this... but since you brought it up... 😉

I think that if someone tells you that your eternal soul is in danger, you have every right to tell them that you do not believe and why. Quote all the scientific facts, or just tell them to piss off. that is not what i was meaning. if someone comes to you on a Sunday and tells you that, is it necessary to spend the next three years taking pot shots at all ppl of faith? Or just when you are confronted? Is it ok to take pot shots at all religions and all ppl, or just those that get in your face?

That is my point.

And preaching/witnessing/spreading the word... it was not supposed to be what it has become. Christians are supposed to live in the Word. Set an example in the Word. Carry yourself and enjoy the riches of the Word. Gleam and glow in the Word. If it is genuine, ppl will 'want some of what he's got' .... it is not supposed to be standing on street corners with pamphlets and 'REPENT, the end nigh' signs or trying to convert ppl thru persuasion. Those are the extremist and putting all Christians and ppl of faith into that pot is akin to putting all Muslims into the extremist pot.

it is just something that i cannot understand why ppl will do.

For what its worth, the OP said "creationists" are taking a beating this april, not "christians" or any other specific group - there was not even the slightest mention of religion.

 

[DigDug]

There are numerous religions in which i don't believe and some i think are silly

Question: For those that you think are silly, why is it that you think them to be as such? No need to name them if you worried about offending people. Rather, I want to know what is it that causes you to view them as preposterous, because I want to see how that point of view somehow yields a different outcome when you apply it to yours.


This is the religious arrogance I'm talking about, and it comes from the teachings pounded into your head that Christianity is right and all others are wrong. In fact, I'm willing to bet that they seem preposterous to you to the extent they deviate from the Christian view of things.

"How can a Pink elephant be a god?! That's crazy, we all know its an old man with a beard in the sky!!"

Get my point?

 

[mercanucaribe]

Anyone seen the episode of Friends where Phoebe doesn't "believe in" evolution and Ross gets mad?

 

[TBone48]

Originally posted by: mercanucaribe
Anyone seen the episode of Friends where Phoebe doesn't "believe in" evolution and Ross gets mad?

That was pretty funny.

 

[FrancesBeansRevenge]

Originally posted by: KarenMarie

Originally posted by: FrancesBeansRevenge

Originally posted by: KarenMarie
But I still fail to see why ppl who do not believe feel the need to take pot shots at those who do.

It's human nature unfortunately.

I also can't figure out why people who believe feel the need to tell those who don't that their 'eternal soul' in danger.

While both sides are guilty of petty sniping and such I will say that NO atheist or agnostic has ever knocked on my door telling me I need to investigate their belief (or lack thereof)..

Don't pretend like 'spreading the word' isn't a integral part of Christianity.

Well, I was really hoping not to get into this... but since you brought it up... 😉

I think that if someone tells you that your eternal soul is in danger, you have every right to tell them that you do not believe and why. Quote all the scientific facts, or just tell them to piss off. that is not what i was meaning. if someone comes to you on a Sunday and tells you that, is it necessary to spend the next three years taking pot shots at all ppl of faith? Or just when you are confronted? Is it ok to take pot shots at all religions and all ppl, or just those that get in your face?

That is my point.

And preaching/witnessing/spreading the word... it was not supposed to be what it has become. Christians are supposed to live in the Word. Set an example in the Word. Carry yourself and enjoy the riches of the Word. Gleam and glow in the Word. If it is genuine, ppl will 'want some of what he's got' .... it is not supposed to be standing on street corners with pamphlets and 'REPENT, the end nigh' signs or trying to convert ppl thru persuasion. Those are the extremist and putting all Christians and ppl of faith into that pot is akin to putting all Muslims into the extremist pot.

it is just something that i cannot understand why ppl will do.

I agree with all of that. 🙂

IMHO, if one is truly comfortable in their belief, or lack thereof, they do not feel the need to 'recruit' others. Trying to convince others that your views are right, and theirs wrong, is merely trying to reimburse ones self for their own investment. Most of us fall into this behaviour at least occasionally.

 

[KarenMarie]

Originally posted by: DigDug

There are numerous religions in which i don't believe and some i think are silly

Question: For those that you think are silly, why is it that you think them to be as such? No need to name them if you worried about offending people. Rather, I want to know what is it that causes you to view them as preposterous, because I want to see how that point of view somehow yields a different outcome when you apply it to yours.

Just about every overly organized religon. Mostly because they have veered so far off the original intent. And I do not choose to name them. Not out of fear, but out of respect. Because if someone else chooses to believe these things, i would never belittle them for it. I am a firm beliver of 'live and let live... as long as you don't step on my toes'. if someone gets in my face with their religion, i will act accordingly... but i would never condemn every person of that, or any faith, every chance i got because of it.

NB: My faith is WAY off what other of the 'same' faith view it to be. 😉

 

[DigDug]

if someone gets in my face with their religion, i will act accordingly... but i would never condemn every person of that, or any faith, every chance i got because of it.

But what about when its the faith itself commanding that behavior?

 

[KarenMarie]

Originally posted by: DigDug

if someone gets in my face with their religion, i will act accordingly... but i would never condemn every person of that, or any faith, every chance i got because of it.

But what about when its the faith itself commanding that behavior?

I am not sure I understand your question... Are you asking what I would do if someone got in my face because their religion directed them to do so? I would tell them... thank you, but I am not interested. .. If they persisted, I would eventually tell them to fvck off, and move on.

But again, I would not use that as an excuse or skate card to openly and publically belittle their religion every chance i got.

 

[BD2003]

Originally posted by: DigDug

if someone gets in my face with their religion, i will act accordingly... but i would never condemn every person of that, or any faith, every chance i got because of it.

But what about when its the faith itself commanding that behavior?

To use a somewhat awkward analogy, not all retards necessarily go into a violent rage when you touch their ear.

 

[DigDug]

To use a somewhat awkward analogy, not all retards necessarily go into a violent rage when you touch their ear

Not just awkward, but inaccurate. The point I made above is that, such behavior isn't to be considered an individual aberration but a tenet of the religion. Is it stereotyping to say that a christian believes in Jesus? No.

 

[FrancesBeansRevenge]

Originally posted by: BD2003

Originally posted by: DigDug

if someone gets in my face with their religion, i will act accordingly... but i would never condemn every person of that, or any faith, every chance i got because of it.

But what about when its the faith itself commanding that behavior?

To use a somewhat awkward analogy, not all retards necessarily go into a violent rage when you touch their ear.

What gave you the idea that you are allowed to touch anyone's ear?

edit: lol nevermind. My reply makes as little sense as that analogy. 🙂

 

[BD2003]

Originally posted by: DigDug

To use a somewhat awkward analogy, not all retards necessarily go into a violent rage when you touch their ear

Not just awkward, but inaccurate. The point I made above is that, such behavior isn't to be considered an individual aberration but a tenet of the religion. Is it stereotyping to say that a christian believes in Jesus? No.

If its a tenet of the religion, why are only a small vocal minority going into an uproar about it? The rest arent true believers then?

I get what youre saying and all, but its a theoretical oversimplication that is practically absurd to apply to the real world.

 

[TheBDB]

Originally posted by: Injury

Originally posted by: KarenMarie
i dont get why ppl who DONT believe something feel the need to go out of their way to poke at ppl who do? Especially at holiday time. Why not just leave them alone and let them enjoy themselves?

Why be so bothered about it that they need stir the pot?

:thumbsup:

It's not like we're all going to read a post and say to ourselves...

"MY WORD! WHAT THE HELL HAVE I BEEN DOING???? TIME TO GO BREAK SOME 'COMMANDMENTS'!"

Even if a superior being was proven false, I would still go to church because it helps me get in touch with my morales and ethics. You don't need to be a christian to understand and agree with the values that it teaches.

So why not just be a moral person and skip the god/church part? 😉

 

[TallBill]

I find it comical that people still believe that Adam + Eve truly existed

 

[SlitheryDee]

Originally posted by: KarenMarie

What i am talking about are those that just feel the need to use any excuse to ridicule, call out and take a poke at religion and those who believe in it.

But I don't feel the overwhelming need to take a pot shot at those who do. Especially not at their time of holy worship.

But I still fail to see why ppl who do not believe feel the need to take pot shots at those who do.

But i would never dream of starting a thread to prove them wrong, or post in it to belittle and make fun of them.

And i certainly would not wait until one of the holiest days of their religion to poke at their faith.

Chopped your post up quite a bit, but I needed to make a point. All of the above passages make believers seem so frail and defenseless.

Why do you feel that you are being persecuted? I know it's been said and said again, but you could always ignore the thread. Or is it that you feel that religion in general is as indefensible as you make it seem in the above passages.

 

[Praxis1452]

Originally posted by: TBone48

Originally posted by: DigDug

No. Thanks for asking, though.

Thanks for the admission that you in fact spend effort trying to reconcile the two, in itself an implication that the real world and your bible are quite different. Not sure about you, but I trust my 5 senses and my own faculties, not a poorly written book that fails to contemplate most everything around me.

I admitted nothing. Your question assumed a situation which doesn't exist for me. I'm sorry the Bible pisses you off.

no the bible doesn't piss me off. People who post one liners like you piss me off.

 

[TBone48]

Originally posted by: Praxis1452

Originally posted by: TBone48

Originally posted by: DigDug

No. Thanks for asking, though.

Thanks for the admission that you in fact spend effort trying to reconcile the two, in itself an implication that the real world and your bible are quite different. Not sure about you, but I trust my 5 senses and my own faculties, not a poorly written book that fails to contemplate most everything around me.

I admitted nothing. Your question assumed a situation which doesn't exist for me. I'm sorry the Bible pisses you off.

no the bible doesn't piss me off. People who post one liners like you piss me off.

That was a response to DigDug. I don't think he needs you to answer for him. Sorry I pissed you off, though. I was only answering the question. I didn't think it needed more than one line.

 

[KarenMarie]

Originally posted by: SlitheryDee

Originally posted by: KarenMarie

What i am talking about are those that just feel the need to use any excuse to ridicule, call out and take a poke at religion and those who believe in it.

But I don't feel the overwhelming need to take a pot shot at those who do. Especially not at their time of holy worship.

But I still fail to see why ppl who do not believe feel the need to take pot shots at those who do.

But i would never dream of starting a thread to prove them wrong, or post in it to belittle and make fun of them.

And i certainly would not wait until one of the holiest days of their religion to poke at their faith.

Chopped your post up quite a bit, but I needed to make a point. All of the above passages make believers seem so frail and defenseless.

Why do you feel that you are being persecuted? I know it's been said and said again, but you could always ignore the thread. Or is it that you feel that religion in general is as indefensible as you make it seem in the above passages.

The points you made are the exact ones I made for the other side.

but... i do not feel that I am being persecuted at all. it doesnt bother me one bit if someone doesnt believe the way i do. my point is not in believing or not believing... or what one believes. the point is in not understanding why some feel the need to take shots at ppl who do not believe the same as they do... or in this case, dont.

i feel the same for those who get shots taken at them as i do for those who dont believe and get hounded by those who do. i just dont get why they feel the need to not respect the view of the other.

 

[DigDug]

Originally posted by: BD2003

Originally posted by: DigDug

To use a somewhat awkward analogy, not all retards necessarily go into a violent rage when you touch their ear

Not just awkward, but inaccurate. The point I made above is that, such behavior isn't to be considered an individual aberration but a tenet of the religion. Is it stereotyping to say that a christian believes in Jesus? No.

If its a tenet of the religion, why are only a small vocal minority going into an uproar about it? The rest arent true believers then?

I get what youre saying and all, but its a theoretical oversimplication that is practically absurd to apply to the real world.

I appreciate your ability to admit that you get what I am saying, unlike everyone else who spins in a circle like so: "The Bible is true because God said so. God exists because the Bible said so."

It seems like an facetious oversimplification that is absurd, but the reality is that this sort of absurdity IS happening in the real world. People ARE taking these things literally because the doctrine does tell them so. Folks like Karen Marie can call herself a Christian while follwing less than half of the religion, engaging in premarital and out-of-wedlock sex and getting a divorce if she wants BECAUSE the church was robbed of its power a couple hundred years ago - she no longer fears the rule of the Church, and having had the opportunity to partake in the forbidden, has realized for herself that it is not the mighty evil as she was brought up believing it to be, something she'd never have been allowed to do in a Church-run state. (Karen I don't mean actually you, but using you as a personalized representative - you may well not have engaged in any of the above, but you should clearly understand my point as well as know more than a few Christian friends the above describes). If, as we see in the east, where religious rules of these religions ARE taken seriously, you'd see how insane and crazy these religions are.

It blows my mind how all these Christians here can point to the Muslim countries as nuts, when its only that they actually practice the religion they profess to believe. Christians here are "normal" because they aren't really Christians. They proudly talk about how Christianity was like that in the 1500s and not now, without even realizing the political fores that have given them the opportunity to stop believing in parts of their religion.

 

[KarenMarie]

Originally posted by: DigDug

I appreciate your ability to admit that you get what I am saying, unlike everyone else who spins in a circle like so: "The Bible is true because God said so. God exists because the Bible said so."

It seems like an facetious oversimplification that is absurd, but the reality is that this sort of absurdity IS happening in the real world. People ARE taking these things literally because the doctrine does tell them so. Folks like Karen Marie can call herself a Christian while follwing less than half of the religion, engaging in premarital and out-of-wedlock sex and getting a divorce if she wants BECAUSE the church was robbed of its power a couple hundred years ago - she no longer fears the rule of the Church, and having had the opportunity to partake in the forbidden, has realized for herself that it is not the mighty evil as she was brought up believing it to be, something she'd never have been allowed to do in a Church-run state. (Karen I don't mean actually you, but using you as a personalized representative - you may well not have engaged in any of the above, but you should clearly understand my point as well as know more than a few Christian friends the above describes). If, as we see in the east, where religious rules of these religions ARE taken seriously, you'd see how insane and crazy these religions are.

It blows my mind how all these Christians here can point to the Muslim countries as nuts, when its only that they actually practice the religion they profess to believe. Christians here are "normal" because they aren't really Christians. They proudly talk about how Christianity was like that in the 1500s and not now, without even realizing the political fores that have given them the opportunity to stop believing in parts of their religion.

My personal life is my own and is not open to opinions or judgements to any other person. But, for the sake of arguement... who says I am only living by 1/2 of the Christian religion? Who says... well, who says that the only way ppl can be 'married' is to go and get a piece of paper from the state? If there is only one right religion, why are there so many offshoots? It is not the lessing of the power of faith, it is the strengthing of the power of organized religon. Some cannot dance or listen to music, others can have 11 wifes, some wont eat meat on fridays... the point is NOT that any one of those things will or will not get someone into heaven... or makes someone a better christian. the point is ... that if that is how someone wants to believe.. let them. my faith/religion is mine. i dont judge or point fingers.

i am not gonna defend or justify my personal life on a public forum. and i find it strange that thru all my posts, i am trying to say that taking pot shots and juding ppl for what they believe it wrong, yet i am the one that you choose to hold open for a guideline on what is right or wrong to believe and act upon. Do me a favor, please don't.

 

[BD2003]

Originally posted by: DigDug

Originally posted by: BD2003

Originally posted by: DigDug

To use a somewhat awkward analogy, not all retards necessarily go into a violent rage when you touch their ear

Not just awkward, but inaccurate. The point I made above is that, such behavior isn't to be considered an individual aberration but a tenet of the religion. Is it stereotyping to say that a christian believes in Jesus? No.

If its a tenet of the religion, why are only a small vocal minority going into an uproar about it? The rest arent true believers then?

I get what youre saying and all, but its a theoretical oversimplication that is practically absurd to apply to the real world.

I appreciate your ability to admit that you get what I am saying, unlike everyone else who spins in a circle like so: "The Bible is true because God said so. God exists because the Bible said so."

It seems like an facetious oversimplification that is absurd, but the reality is that this sort of absurdity IS happening in the real world. People ARE taking these things literally because the doctrine does tell them so. Folks like Karen Marie can call herself a Christian while follwing less than half of the religion, engaging in premarital and out-of-wedlock sex and getting a divorce if she wants BECAUSE the church was robbed of its power a couple hundred years ago - she no longer fears the rule of the Church, and having had the opportunity to partake in the forbidden, has realized for herself that it is not the mighty evil as she was brought up believing it to be, something she'd never have been allowed to do in a Church-run state. (Karen I don't mean actually you, but using you as a personalized representative - you may well not have engaged in any of the above, but you should clearly understand my point as well as know more than a few Christian friends the above describes). If, as we see in the east, where religious rules of these religions ARE taken seriously, you'd see how insane and crazy these religions are.

It blows my mind how all these Christians here can point to the Muslim countries as nuts, when its only that they actually practice the religion they profess to believe. Christians here are "normal" because they aren't really Christians. They proudly talk about how Christianity was like that in the 1500s and not now, without even realizing the political fores that have given them the opportunity to stop believing in parts of their religion.

The inherent problem is that the bible itself is contradictory. If one would believe in it literally, then they would have the double duty of killing all non-believers (I forget the verse, but its DEFINIETLY there), as well as loving their fellow man and giving the other cheek when they are struck.

Regardless, there are extremists that choose to ignore certain passages and take certain other passages literally. They are ridculous because they are ridculous, not because they are christian, and their very existence should not serve to tarnish the entire religion of christianity. I also think it is fallacious to assume that unless one takes the bible or any other religious scripture non-literally, or does not accept it without question, will make them considered to be "non-believers."

In reality, christianity, along with all the other major religious entities, are essetially living, breathing organizations and institutions that gasp....EVOLVE with the times. Its as absurd to criticize modern christians as not being "real" christians as it is to criticize a modern american for not believing and professing the absolute truth of the founding fathers.

My not hating the british should not serve as an excuse to call me less of an american, which is why I used such an infantile analogy to demonstate my point. Perhaps I could have worded it differently, as it stands it seems to imply that all christians are retards, but believe it or not, it was meant to be neutral and was the first thing that came to mind. 😛

 

[SlitheryDee]

Originally posted by: BD2003


The inherent problem is that the bible itself is contradictory. If one would believe in it literally, then they would have the double duty of killing all non-believers (I forget the verse, but its DEFINIETLY there), as well as loving their fellow man and giving the other cheek when they are struck.

Regardless, there are extremists that choose to ignore certain passages and take certain other passages literally. They are ridculous because they are ridculous, not because they are christian, and their very existence should not serve to tarnish the entire religion of christianity. I also think it is fallacious to assume that unless one takes the bible or any other religious scripture non-literally, or does not accept it without question, will make them considered to be "non-believers."

In reality, christianity, along with all the other major entities, are essetially living, breathing organizations and institutions that gasp....EVOLVE with the times. Its as absurd to criticize modern christians as not being "real" christians as it is to criticize a modern american for not believing and professing the absolute truth of the founding fathers.

My not hating the british should not serve as an excuse to call me less of an american, which is why I used such an infantile analogy to demonstate my point. Perhaps I could have worded it differently, as it stands it seems to imply that all christians are retards, but believe it or not, it was meant to be neutral and was the first thing that came to mind. 😛

You're right, taking the bible literally in it's entirety would take enough convolutions of logic to land you in an insane asylum. So now you're left struggling to extract God's REAL meaning from the bible, since it obviously can't all be true.

You say that christianity as an entity is evolving and I don't doubt that, but wouldn't you say that they are evolving AWAY from the bible; Taking less and less of it as actual fact, and demoting it to the status of metaphor?

I can only meet this with confusion, because disregarding parts of bible in favor of others to me cast the shadow of doubt on the whole. After all aren't all the stories in the bible told with an equal presupposition of truth? Each book presents itself as fact or a recording of genuine occurrences of religious importance. Only after reading the book in it's entirety do you realize that simply cannot be the case, and to stop the war between your logical mind and an your faith you set about to choose what you will believe.

There are even members of AT with whom I've had discussions who claim that their faith exists completely independent of any religious text. This rather confuses me as well, because their notion of faith and a supreme being surely began with the teachings from some religious collection of stories. Is it only when the book or books in question do not hold up to scrutiny that they choose to lose the book itself but keep the end result of the book? That result being the basic belief in God.

 

[BD2003]

Originally posted by: SlitheryDee

Originally posted by: BD2003


The inherent problem is that the bible itself is contradictory. If one would believe in it literally, then they would have the double duty of killing all non-believers (I forget the verse, but its DEFINIETLY there), as well as loving their fellow man and giving the other cheek when they are struck.

Regardless, there are extremists that choose to ignore certain passages and take certain other passages literally. They are ridculous because they are ridculous, not because they are christian, and their very existence should not serve to tarnish the entire religion of christianity. I also think it is fallacious to assume that unless one takes the bible or any other religious scripture non-literally, or does not accept it without question, will make them considered to be "non-believers."

In reality, christianity, along with all the other major entities, are essetially living, breathing organizations and institutions that gasp....EVOLVE with the times. Its as absurd to criticize modern christians as not being "real" christians as it is to criticize a modern american for not believing and professing the absolute truth of the founding fathers.

My not hating the british should not serve as an excuse to call me less of an american, which is why I used such an infantile analogy to demonstate my point. Perhaps I could have worded it differently, as it stands it seems to imply that all christians are retards, but believe it or not, it was meant to be neutral and was the first thing that came to mind. 😛

You're right, taking the bible literally in it's entirety would take enough convolutions of logic to land you in an insane asylum. So now you're left struggling to extract God's REAL meaning from the bible, since it obviously can't all be true.

You say that christianity as an entity is evolving and I don't doubt that, but wouldn't you say that they are evolving AWAY from the bible; Taking less and less of it as actual fact, and demoting it to the status of metaphor?

I can only meet this with confusion, because disregarding parts of bible in favor of others to me cast the shadow of doubt on the whole. After all aren't all the stories in the bible told with an equal presupposition of truth? Each book presents itself as fact or a recording of genuine occurrences of religious importance. Only after reading the book in it's entirety do you realize that simply cannot be the case, and to stop the war between your logical mind and an your faith you set about to choose what you will believe.

There are even members of AT with whom I've had discussions who claim that their faith exists completely independent of any religious text. This rather confuses me as well, because their notion of faith and a supreme being surely began with the teachings from some religious collection of stories. Is it only when the book or books in question do not hold up to scrutiny that they choose to lose the book itself but keep the end result of the book? That result being the basic belief in God.

Id certainly say theyre evolving away from the bible. Some interpret this is an indication that the bible is just a book like any other, written by people with a set of beliefs they deemed to be valid and truth at the time they were written; thats certainly how I see it. You'll have to figure out that one for yourself.

As far as faith being independent of religious text, I see no need for contradiction or confusion. You were taught how to add at school by counting apples, but your ability to add is now second nature and you have no need to count apples anymore, now that you've long left first grade.

Also, in the case the bible is indeed metaphorical, that any reference contained in the bible to its absolute truth would be metaphorical as well.

Although in the end, isn't the entire concept of faith basically an unwavering belief in its truth in the face of all contradictory evidence?