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Other than being much overpriced... anything I have missed?

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Well... since heat and airflow won't be a problem with the case I will be using, I could spend more on two SCSI drives... I have never used SCSI like I said, but if it's just a FACT that 2 of the fastest SCSI Drives in a RAID 0 will smash the Raptors, I will definately consider it. I will start reading more about it at storagereview to see what I can learn before I buy.

Thanks Mark 🙂
 
ummm...its fun to think about, but are you really gonna build this when you could have a decent car for the same price???
or real versions of a few of the guns in games you play

IMO you wont feel the benefit of the extra money you spent

i did this with a mac a few years back, and im still kicking myself for spending so much on it

unless youre a millionaire, you WILL REGRET THIS PURCHASE

good luck
 
I will start looking at those Fujitsu Drives and the controller, thanks Mark! If they prove to be as amazing as they look I may well used them instead of the Raptors. Jerome, I'm very lucky that I have enought money that I can safely spend it this way, I understand what you mean of course... however I have done this before. Unlike your experience I was MORE than pleased for years (still am) with that machine. I still can and do use it for some high end-ish applications, and its almost 4 years old with only ONE upgrade (video). Anyway, I appreciate your concern and comment, I luckily already have a nice car, and this computer is now in my budget.

Thanks guys 🙂
 
SCSI is more than just fast, it's intelligent. Give it a stack of commands and it will take them in the order that's most efficient. The nastier the workload, the more it's going to lay the smack down on ATA. I have a task I do at work sometimes, where my Cheetah 15k.3 completes the job about 35% of the time that it takes a fast ATA drive (45 seconds versus 120 seconds).

Ironically, even my ancient Quantum Atlas 10k from 1999 will beat an 8MB-cache ATA drive in that task. The Quantum's top sprint speed is a paltry 24MB/second but it has the ace cards of SCSI's command queueing and low seek times. So you can see there's more to disk performance than straight-line sprint speed a la RAID0, with the Quantum beating an ATA drive that has easily twice the straight-line sprint speed. Street-rodded Chevy Nova versus Acura NSX... the Nova might be faster on a drag strip, but on an actual road course, which one would a good driver turn better laps with? 😉 Ah so, grasshoppah...

On top of that, SCSI is inherently very expandable. Ten drives per cable? No problem with SCSI 😀 Ten-meter external SCSI cable? No problem. If you want to really doll up your rig, you could pick up 80-pin drives and plop 'em into one of these, although I can't vouch for the noise level on that since I haven't tried one. Incidentally, that HDD rack occupies three 5.25" bays and would go long-edge-down, 90 degrees rotated from the photo there.

So think about SCSI, it's nice technology. 🙂
 
mechBgon, Seagate's SATA drives have NCQ. I think that all SATA-II drives will likely support it, so you better start thinking up of some new SCSI advantages 😉
 
Originally posted by: RaynorWolfcastle
mechBgon, Seagate's SATA drives have NCQ. I think that all SATA-II drives will likely support it, so you better start thinking up of some new SCSI advantages 😉
Click to expand...

OK, how about the 3.3 ms seek of the SCSI drives vs the 4.5 for the Raptor ? Or the 128 meg cache of the controller I pointed out ? and you missed the expandabilty. I can't even imagine what 10 15k.4 Cheetah's or Fujitsu MAS would do in that control with a full 64 bit slot. Could be mind-boggling.....
 
Originally posted by: RaynorWolfcastle
mechBgon, Seagate's SATA drives have NCQ. I think that all SATA-II drives will likely support it, so you better start thinking up of some new SCSI advantages 😉
Click to expand...
Oh, they certainly do, yes 🙂 But reality > benchmarks & feature checkboxes. If you didn't notice, my Cheetah 15k.3 enjoys nearly a 3x performance advantage over ATA in a real-world task.

Incidentally, you might find XBit Labs' article interesting here: link to 74GB Raptor article, look at the third graph that contrasts SCSI's performance with TCQ enabled versus disabled The author found no measurable improvements with the Raptor's TQC enabled, unlike the obvious huge boost (red line) with SCSI. Gee. 😛

Summing up everything mentioned above I believe there remain two versions, which sound more or less reasonable:

1) WD740GD hard disk drive does support CQ, but the exiting SATA controllers ignore PATA CQ. And the performance growth we detected during workload increase can be explained by a banal requests sorting performed by the driver of the SATA controller.

[or]

2) The efficiency of the PATA CQ is so low that it is hardly noticeable against the background of the performance growth resulting from the optimization of the requests processing order by the controller driver.
Click to expand...
The defense rests its case, Your Honor :evil:
 
AFAIK, as of right now none of the SATA controllers implement CQ so it obviously it won't make much of a performance difference as of now.

I also agree with both you and markfw900 that SCSI is much faster (in no small part because of the 50% spin-rate advantage). What I am saying is that Raptors are quickly eating away at the low-end SCSI market thanks to low cost.

Obviously a high-end RAID SCSI card with multiple RAIDed SCSI drives will smoke SATA, but that's not the point. How many users run workloads that require extremely fast seek times (loading tons of small files)? This is more of a server workload than a single-user workload. In a single-user environment, Raptors offer an excellent price/performance balance for a power use. While SCSI will offer more performance if you sink enough money into it, is it really worth the money?

I've never used SCSI personally, but I can't see it being worth the huge premium for a single-user in most cases. Just MHO, feel free to disagree (and I know you will :evil: )
 
It certainly will be a bright day if/when everyone can enjoy high capacity, low prices, no need to buy wierd controllers and cables, and TCQ as well. 😀 I know I'm a terrible SCSI snob, plus I helped spawn a couple more... 😉 hehe!
 
Hmmm.... all very interesting and enlightening, I really appreciate everyones' input about this. I think both sides make a lot of sense... of course the fact that I'm willing to spend as much as I already am makes very little to most 🙂 So do I stick with the great price/performance for single user Raptors? or go all out and get SCSI demons that MAY not utilize their advantage in a single user..... decisions decisions...Well anyway, I'm still doing homework and all of this input really helps alot! Also, I know that when SATA II, with NCQ comes out it may be amazing, but its not out yet and since I've waited almost a year already, Im ready to get building!

Thanks so much guys 🙂 I appreciate it!
 
Originally posted by: skace
Heh can't believe some people thought SATA drives were the peak of performance hard drives.
Click to expand...
I just remember reading on various review websites, that for a single user system, the Raptors are the best. This was last year when the original 36GB drive came out, but I'm pretty sure I read that about the new one also.

Yes, I'm certain there are benchmarks that will show some SCSI drive as being faster, but in the situations that the OP will be using the drive, I'm fairly certain he would never see the difference. Honestly, 2 74GB Raptors are already very expensive. To go beyond that is overkill IMO. On top of that, if he goes SCSI, he will be limited by the PCI bus unless his motherboard has a controller embedded.
 
I have been hearing some similar arguments as that sickbeast... Im still on the fence about he choice, it may take a little more time/input before I can fully commit to one choice or the other.

Thanks of course for the input, most appreciated 🙂
 
Originally posted by: SickBeast
Originally posted by: skace
Heh can't believe some people thought SATA drives were the peak of performance hard drives.
Click to expand...
I just remember reading on various review websites, that for a single user system, the Raptors are the best. This was last year when the original 36GB drive came out, but I'm pretty sure I read that about the new one also.

Yes, I'm certain there are benchmarks that will show some SCSI drive as being faster, but in the situations that the OP will be using the drive, I'm fairly certain he would never see the difference. Honestly, 2 74GB Raptors are already very expensive. To go beyond that is overkill IMO. On top of that, if he goes SCSI, he will be limited by the PCI bus unless his motherboard has a controller embedded.
Click to expand...

NO, He has 64 bit PCI-X slots ! That baby will cook ! Thats why I was pushing, he can utilize my setup way better than I can, and mine screams !

Edit and 133 mhz PCI-X slots no less !!
 
Originally posted by: Markfw900
NO, He has 64 bit PCI-X slots ! That baby will cook ! Thats why I was pushing, he can utilize my setup way better than I can, and mine screams !

Edit and 133 mhz PCI-X slots no less !!
Click to expand...
Fine, so he won't be PCI-limited. That still doesn't prove they will be faster in a single-user environment for him. Read the storagereview.com reviews. They will corroborate what I am saying.

I'm not disputing that your setup is faster, Mark. I'm just saying that your setup is overkill unless your comptuer is hosting CNN.com. Show me some benchmarks of a single-user environment where your SCSI setup beats the Raptors, then I'll believe you.

EDIT: I'm not talking about a 5-drive array, either! 2 drives vs. 2 drives would be fine. Even 1 drive vs. 1 drive is fine; the RAID setup would simply multiply these values to a certain degree.
 
Originally posted by: SickBeast
Originally posted by: Markfw900
NO, He has 64 bit PCI-X slots ! That baby will cook ! Thats why I was pushing, he can utilize my setup way better than I can, and mine screams !

Edit and 133 mhz PCI-X slots no less !!
Click to expand...
Fine, so he won't be PCI-limited. That still doesn't prove they will be faster in a single-user environment for him. Read the storagereview.com reviews. They will corroborate what I am saying.

I'm not disputing that your setup is faster, Mark. I'm just saying that your setup is overkill unless your comptuer is hosting CNN.com. Show me some benchmarks of a single-user environment where your SCSI setup beats the Raptors, then I'll believe you.

EDIT: I'm not talking about a 5-drive array, either! 2 drives vs. 2 drives would be fine. Even 1 drive vs. 1 drive is fine; the RAID setup would simply multiply these values to a certain degree.
Click to expand...
How about my result with my Cheetah 15k.3 versus a Western Digital Special Edition, for starters? Real-world task, one that I'm being paid to do. Cheetah >>> WD 800JB. Do you think the Raptor can make up for a 3:1 performance advantage versus the 800JB...? And remember, my result is with a basic $35 LSI Logic card on a 32-bit PCI bus.

Or let's everyone raise a hand who's been annoyed at how unresponsive his/her computer can become when it's doing a full antivirus scan 🙂 Where I work, that's every day, although the scan does run at lunch hour. SCSI will work you into the cross-traffic pretty well, if you are the unfortunate soul trying to work amidst this I/O storm 🙂

Bottom line, our HR guy and myself had very similar rigs for quite a while (A7N8X Deluxe, dual-channel Corsair) and he had the 800JB, I had an older Cheetah X15-36LP. The difference was NOT something you had to benchmark to discern it. Seat-of-the-pants responsiveness on the older Cheetah was far above the JB. StorageReview's claims that the Raptor is so much better, based on a warp-speed replay of an I/O trace, isn't borne out by my SmileMark result with ATA drives so far, so I will keep using what gets good results in my real-world usage.

I'm considering buying a 74GB Raptor to try out, lest you think it's just a case of me being closed-minded 😉 I don't make a lot of money, so it's been on the back burner.
 
The tyan dual boards are not the great, i would seriously consider waiting till the new motherboards come out in the fall. The AMD dual solutions with PCI-Express coming out are leaps and bounds above the current stuff out there. The power suplly probably will not fit that board. Also this system will not run like you would expect it too, i can produce the same results with a single processor machine in gaming. If money is no option, consider this rig:
Case: Any
Antec true 550w PS
1x AMD 150 <-OEM with some type of water cooling or a heat pipe HSF
Asus SK8V
2 GB of any DDR 400+ ram<- maybe kingston or crucial
2x 74 raptors RAID 0 <- really worth more than SCSI in the long run
Nvidia 6800 Ultra <- this card currently has more potential in gaming go with Quadro FX 4000 for Apps
Audigy 2 ZS only <- I have the platnium, it looks cool, but i have never used it

If you want to overclock get the FX53
 
Originally posted by: amonster
Thanks everyone for the input! I will definatley find an XT for the graphics before I buy anything. I have been waiting for almost a year already, so I am ready to buy and stop waiting. I THINK that the setup will be more than satisfying for any use I will have for it. Money is not MUCH of an issue, Im really lucky that I get to spend this much money on a computer. More than anything I want to check and see if I have missed any important problems with components, since Im new to most of them being that this is my first "dream rig". I need to make sure the PSU will connect to the motherboard... that the RAM will function properly and fast/stable in that board (2 sticks 512/CPU)... that there IS an AGP slot? (I hope so on that Tyan).... um... and Im still trying to get the exact model from 3ware for the Escalade hardware RAID... technical details that all you vets would know and I wouldn't!

Thanks for all the help so far, keep the comments coming please 🙂
Click to expand...


If you've waited a year you surely can wait a bit more. Get the ATI Radeon X800XT Pro PE.
 
Originally posted by: amonster
Planning to build my own "dream rig". I have wanted to for a LONG time and finally I am ready to do it. Basically I just want it to be incredibly fast no matter what I will be doing with it. So far I have the following parts in mind. I know some of it is overkill, but other than pricing, have I missed anything important? Compatibility problems? connection difficulties? etc. Thanks very much to anyone for their advice and opinions.

***Case: ?? (see post in cases and cooling)
Motherboard: TYAN "Thunder K8S Pro(S2882UG3NR)" AMD-8000
Hard Drives (primary): (2) WD SATA 74 GB Raptors (RAID 0)
Hard Drives (storage): (1) Hitachi 250GB 7200RPM SATA Hard Drive, Model HDS722525VLSA80 Part# 13G0255, OEM
RAM: (2) Corsair XMS Extreme Memory Speed Platinum Series, Low Latency (Twin Pack) 184 Pin 1GB(512MBx2) ECC Registered DDR PC-3200 (2 gigs total RAM)
PSU: Antec 550W Power Supply, Model "TRUE550"
Processors: (2) AMD Opteron Model 250, 1MB L2 Cache 64-bit Processors
***3Ware Escalade hardware RAID controller ?? (not sure which model would be right for 2 drives)
Sound: Creative Labs Sound Blaster Audigy2 ZS PCI Sound Card, Model "SB0350"
Graphics: SAPPHIRE ATI RADEON 9800XT Video Card, 256MB DDR, 256-bit, DVI/TV-Out, 8X AGP, Model "ULTIMATE RADEON 9800XT"
Lite-On White 52X32X52X16 Combo Drive, Model SOHC-5232K, OEM Bulk Pack
Sony Internal DVD-/+RW Recorder Drive, Model DRU-530A
Win XP Pro (sp1a)

Thanks again! 🙂
Click to expand...
Ok, and now I'm going to actually make myself somewhat useful in your thread 🙂 You want four memory modules for a pair of Opterons on a Tyan Thunder K8W (as someone noted, get the K8W or you're going to be one AGP slot shy of a smile). Since each Opteron does have two memory controllers, this equates to dual-dual-channel. Otherwise each CPU would have only one module and would have to use single-channel mode.

Also, you will want the TruePower550EPS, not the ATX version, for a Tyan Thunder K8W.

Depending what you want in a case, you might check out the Lian-Li full-tower models (nice if you do need three 5.25" bays for a SCSI hot-swap caddy) or the Lite-On FS020 if you can find it (dual 120mm exhaust, kinda neat 🙂).

Don't take my SCSI-superiority complex too seriously. I'm sure you would still be grinning ear-to-ear with a pair of Raptors too 😀
 
Thanks again for the input fellas, believe it or not Im actually thinking about just getting several SUPER fast drives and not using RAID at all.... not sure about that yet though. I might be in just as good shape getting some killer 15K 320 SCSI drives with the fastest controller I can get my hands on and splitting OS, apps, data, paging file (which I may simply disable) etc on different drives. I agree that I would be most happy with either one of the setups (Raptors or SCSI), just trying to choose!! 🙂 Thanks for the tip about the PSU also, I would have missed that totally!! By the way I AM getting 4 modules mech... I was already planning to use 2x512 modules for each CPU (if ya look at my setup you can see it 🙂) Anyway, still cranking through research and details. I will be trying to get the GIGABYTE GV-R80P256V RADEON X800XT PLATINUM EDITION 256MB AGP8X DVI OUT TV OUT VIVO if I can!! 🙂 Please keep the input and advice coming, I swear Im getting closer to final decisions!!

Thanks 🙂
 
Originally posted by: Runner20
Why not build a super fast rig with a Athlon FX-53?
Click to expand...

Two Opterons 250's with 64 bit PCI-X slots will kill an FX, even in a single user application.
 
Well the only reason I have is that I THOUGHT that a blazing Dual Opteron 250 setup would be faster than a FX-53. I am really ignorant about that processor though, so I may be totally wrong.
 
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