OT: Microsoft creates real headachess and bandwidth issues for schools with release of SP2 when students come back

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
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8-23-2004 Windows Upgrade Causing Campus Headaches

Microsoft Corp.'s decision to release a major upgrade for its flagship operating system in the same month that hundreds of thousands of students are reporting to college campuses across the nation is causing a major headache for the higher education community.

Worried that the upgrade could conflict with other applications running on university networks, and a related concern that thousands of students attempting to download the software could bring campus computer networks to a standstill, technology administrators at some universities have taken steps to block an automatic service that downloads the software.

An extremely large file that could slow networks to a halt if too many students download it at the same time, SP2 also contains code that interferes with popular firewall and antivirus programs that many people run on their computers, according to Microsoft.

"Microsoft's timing really couldn't have been worse for us," said Chris Faigle, a security administrator at the school, where classes start today. "For the faculty and students, we simply won't be able to handle all of the additional issues that would almost certainly come up in addition to just getting the students registered on the network."

A number of schools that have built systems to register computers on their network plan to periodically probe student PCs to ensure they contain the latest antivirus updates and Microsoft security patches.

But SP2 can interfere with those automatic inspections since it turns on the Windows firewall, said Jack Suess, chief information officer at the University of Maryland Baltimore County. So UMBC plans to bar computers owned by its 4,000 students from automatically downloading the update until the school is ready to roll out its own tweaks.

Several schools, including Brown and George Mason, planned to circulate SP2 on CD-ROMs, a move that would allow students to install the upgrade without connecting to the Internet. Microsoft, however, last week sent a letter to those schools warning them against duplicating and distributing the patches without buying an expensive license that includes the right to install Microsoft programs on student PCs.

Microsoft has agreed to give schools one service pack disk for every 50 students on campus, with extra disks costing 32 cents each. Microsoft said it has received orders for the CD-ROM from approximately 60 institutions, and that nearly 100,000 CD-ROMs have already been shipped to schools nationwide.

Some schools, including American University, will not receive them for another two weeks, though Microsoft said it expects to ship any ordered discs within five to 12 business days.

"For the vast majority of institutions that have students returning this week, that's too little too late," said EDUCAUSE's Petersen.
 
Aug 27, 2002
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I just can't see there being that much bandwidth being gobbled up. the schools should be able to just block it during prime hours, and allow the updates to happen later in the evening when there is less network activity.
 

ProviaFan

Lifer
Mar 17, 2001
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At schools with lots of non-tech oriented students, I could see the rollout of SP2 and the problems it could cause to be a potential problem, but on the other hand, I object to (and would not attend) a college that forces me to install spyware on my computer so they can check up on me for whatever reason (e.g. a lot of religious schools do this to make sure you're not listening to the "wrong" kind of music :roll: ).

Edit: finally read the article and just found this line amusing...
downloading and installing SP2 can take anywhere from one to three hours with a high-speed Internet connection
Must not be a very "high speed" connection, then... On my DSL (which is "only" 1.5Mb/sec, so everyone with cable thinks their connection is so much better), the full network install package only took 30 minutes to download. ;)
 

Crazee

Elite Member
Nov 20, 2001
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As a Sys Admin at a college, I can tell you that the problem isn't the bandwidth being gobbled up and causing things to be slow, the problem is that most Universities pay for a certain bandwidth average. When you have literally thousands of people downloading a 267MB file it adds up and skews your average high which in turn costs the College a lot more money. The main reason I do not run Seti on the machines at school is that we are close to hitting the top of our bandwidth average. With thousands of machines doing 14-17 WUs per day it would add up and throw us up into the next pay category.

The other problem is that most universities and colleges have to support many more programs than most businesses do. Also many of these programs are not from the biggest of companies so the tech support for them is poor at best. Frequently these programs do things in very unusual ways. Many of the students must utilize these programs as part of their education. If SP2 causes problems then we have to support the student and figure out what needs to be done to get things working. By rolling this out at the beginning of the fall semester, which by the way fall registration is the busiest and most crucial time of the year for College IT departments, Microsoft has really stuck it to the IT departments of Colleges and Universities.

Also what they are talking about is not spyware to monitor what student's are doing on their PC, but a check to be sure that their machine is patched and running the latest antivirus which is necessary to ensure the protection of the network. Many programs like LanGuard from GFI perform this task without an agent being loaded on the student's machine. However if the ports that are required for this scan it won't happen and it opens the network up to potential problems.
 

Rattledagger

Elite Member
Feb 5, 2001
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Hmm, SP2 is... 272391 KB... Ok, this is the network-installation-package and as such probably is a little bigger, but still...

100 Mbit means can download 1 copy every 22 seconds, or roughly 4000 /day.

Since this is the DC-forum, using Berkeley as an example, they've got roughly... 33k students... Back in the days seti@home ran from this link, it was 70 for "campus" & 40 for "reshall". A quick look now can seem they've slightly increased these limits, so let's say 150 Mbit. This means if every student has a computer and installs SP2 their internet-connection is occupied for atleast 5.5 days. :Q

Or as Crazee mentions, they'll have to pay for the added capasity used...


Hmm, isn't universities normally having atleast 1 Gbit capasity...
 

HayHauler

Golden Member
Feb 21, 2003
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Originally posted by: Crazee
As a Sys Admin at a college, I can tell you that the problem isn't the bandwidth being gobbled up and causing things to be slow, the problem is that most Universities pay for a certain bandwidth average. When you have literally thousands of people downloading a 267MB file it adds up and skews your average high which in turn costs the College a lot more money. The main reason I do not run Seti on the machines at school is that we are close to hitting the top of our bandwidth average. With thousands of machines doing 14-17 WUs per day it would add up and throw us up into the next pay category.

The other problem is that most universities and colleges have to support many more programs than most businesses do. Also many of these programs are not from the biggest of companies so the tech support for them is poor at best. Frequently these programs do things in very unusual ways. Many of the students must utilize these programs as part of their education. If SP2 causes problems then we have to support the student and figure out what needs to be done to get things working. By rolling this out at the beginning of the fall semester, which by the way fall registration is the busiest and most crucial time of the year for College IT departments, Microsoft has really stuck it to the IT departments of Colleges and Universities.

Also what they are talking about is not spyware to monitor what student's are doing on their PC, but a check to be sure that their machine is patched and running the latest antivirus which is necessary to ensure the protection of the network. Many programs like LanGuard from GFI perform this task without an agent being loaded on the student's machine. However if the ports that are required for this scan it won't happen and it opens the network up to potential problems.


I am a n00b at networking, but can't Active Directory take care of the function of making sure updates are applied and what AV they are running?
Maybe not, just an idea.

Hay
:beer: for you.
 

Unforgiven

Golden Member
May 11, 2001
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being in IT myself, i dont see why any reasonable IT professional would allow implementation of SP2 based on all of the issues ive seen set forth at this point. to install ANY service pack during the first few months of release is playing with fire big time! as an IT professional at a learning institution you should put out a disclaimer regarding SP2 stating that conflicts in software/hardware will not be supported until 'X' date. that way you cover your bases and give yourself time to catch up to all the issues that may or may not be occuring due to SP2.
 

Jeff7

Lifer
Jan 4, 2001
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Several schools, including Brown and George Mason, planned to circulate SP2 on CD-ROMs, a move that would allow students to install the upgrade without connecting to the Internet. Microsoft, however, last week sent a letter to those schools warning them against duplicating and distributing the patches without buying an expensive license that includes the right to install Microsoft programs on student PCs.
That's just stupid. A license to duplicate, without intent to make profit (actually take a loss for the cost of the CD's, and the time required), something that can be freely downloaded from Microsoft's own website???? Explain again how that makes any sense?
 

SNC

Platinum Member
Jan 14, 2001
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Have they not heard of SUS? Download one time, distribute to clients. I do this at every office that has more than 10 PCs. Removes the bandwidth issue. Also allows me to test all patches before they get rolled out.

Microsoft need to have a foot shoved up there ass for the license needed to distribute a free update. Sort of makes one scratch there head and wonder who is the brains behind this....
 

Rattledagger

Elite Member
Feb 5, 2001
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By my understanding universities/colleges has 2 problems. #1, installing & compability on the universities "own" computers, this can be done slowly and test out beforehand.
#2, students using their own computers connected in dorms and similar, or downloading sp2 by using university-computers and afterwards move to own computer.

If didn't screw up the calculation, a 100 Mbit-line can max download 4000 copies/day...
 

RaySun2Be

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
16,565
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Originally posted by: networkman
So far, we(18 branch district library) have managed to avoid the issue entirely and stay comitted to Windows 2000. But I suppose eventually, we may have no choice but to switch to XP. :roll:

Same here. No reason for us to upgrade to XP from 2000 anytime soon. My PC is the only XP box here, and I turned off automatic update. :)

I don't think it is just the bandwidth issue, although it is a major factor. Also consider that once it's installed, any little thing that doesn't work will be blamed on XP SP2, or IS caused by SP2, and if the PCs are supported by the college, they will be spending a LOT of time afterwards on supporting those PCs and trying to resolve issues.
 

MoFunk

Diamond Member
Dec 6, 2000
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Originally posted by: SNC
Have they not heard of SUS? Download one time, distribute to clients. I do this at every office that has more than 10 PCs. Removes the bandwidth issue. Also allows me to test all patches before they get rolled out.

Microsoft need to have a foot shoved up there ass for the license needed to distribute a free update. Sort of makes one scratch there head and wonder who is the brains behind this....


I would agree to a point. I think SUS is great, however, it is easier to set up the pc's on a corporate lan to point to SUS, then it is for thousands of students who are just walking on campus and attaching to the network.

But I am not yet 100% familiar with SUS so I do not know if there is any way to create a logon script that will make any pc that gets attached to the network, point to the SUS server.
 

Crazee

Elite Member
Nov 20, 2001
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There are many ways to handle it. You can use group policy to point to a WUS server. You can use group policy installer for people to install it when they log in, but that is not the problem that Universities are facing.

We have CA Unicenter Software Delivery where and I work and it works great. The problem is not getting the update to people, the problem is keeping it from people until it can be tested and configured correctly to work in the environment.

Right now we have a group policy in place that turns the ICF off by default. So even if someone gets SP2 on a machine, the firewall will not be enabled. Once we establish how we want this configured and get it tested with our software, we will then deploy SP2 and change group policy to enable it so it cannot be turned off.
 

MoFunk

Diamond Member
Dec 6, 2000
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Oh I see what you are saying about the programs. Now keeping in mind I am a greenhorn here, can't you set up group policy to point to the WUS and just not deploy SP2. Then can't you also disable access to the windows update site. This would eliminate a bunch of poeple from downloading SP2. Then the only ones that would are ones that are downloading from outside your LAN. That to me would make a much smaller amount of support and would almost be like beta testing. If you had a small percentage of these pc's running into trouble and coming to you, you would then be able to see what the problems are without having to fix hundreds of pc's.
 

Crazee

Elite Member
Nov 20, 2001
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We always have access to Windows update off in GP because we deploy all patches through CA Unicenter. As I said the problem isn't deployment, the problem is testing this with hundreds of applications to be sure it works when we are going through the busiest time of the year for us.

I am on the educause message list that a lot of the information for that article was pulled from and it really is frightening how many Systems Administrators don't know that they can control the whole process through GP.
 

mechBgon

Super Moderator<br>Elite Member
Oct 31, 1999
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since it turns on the Windows firewall
It does? I just set up a mostly-new WinXP Pro system for my sister, and installed SP2, and it didn't turn on the firewall. It offered me the option of turning on the firewall... but that option's not a new thing, now is it ;) Maybe it's been unburied and presented to the user now, I'll grant that. I also don't see any mention here of the fact that SP2 can be uninstalled, not just installed and then you're stuck.

I personally was so impressed with what SP2 did to my sister's WinXP rig that I've ordered WinXP Pro for myself at last, despite my affection for Win2000 Pro. :) It enables the use of the Athlon64's hardware-level Enhanced Virus Protection, which may not be a huge benefit to me since I'm not a high-risk type, but for college students... mmm, I think it could be beneficial, as is the I'll-babysit-your-antivirus-software feature.

Just a little counterpoint against the the-sky-is-falling tone here ;)
 

n0cmonkey

Elite Member
Jun 10, 2001
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Originally posted by: mechBgon
since it turns on the Windows firewall
It does? I just set up a mostly-new WinXP Pro system for my sister, and installed SP2, and it didn't turn on the firewall. It offered me the option of turning on the firewall... but that option's not a new thing, now is it ;) Maybe it's been unburied and presented to the user now, I'll grant that. I also don't see any mention here of the fact that SP2 can be uninstalled, not just installed and then you're stuck.

I personally was so impressed with what SP2 did to my sister's WinXP rig that I've ordered WinXP Pro for myself at last, despite my affection for Win2000 Pro. :) It enables the use of the Athlon64's hardware-level Enhanced Virus Protection, which may not be a huge benefit to me since I'm not a high-risk type, but for college students... mmm, I think it could be beneficial, as is the I'll-babysit-your-antivirus-software feature.

Just a little counterpoint against the the-sky-is-falling tone here ;)

I cringe everytime I read AMD's use of NX called virus protection. :p

How about we complain about Microsoft patenting potentially 20 year old technology? ;)
 

Crazee

Elite Member
Nov 20, 2001
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Doing a service pack through windows updates or by network deployment is very different. With a massive network deployment, you would not want it asking your users what they want set up. By default in a network deployment ICF will be turned on and set to default settings. That could cause problems for many programs in the environment so we have to test systems and software with SP2 and ICF turned on to see how we need things set and what ports need to be open for our software to function correctly.

Once the configuration is agreed upon, we have to tweek the network install so that when we roll it out all our machines receive that configuration.

Also, even though it offers you an uninstall option, in the testing we have performed so far that feature works only about 40-50% of the time. When it doesn't work you are screwed unless you have a backup or have system restore enabled on the machine.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I am not knocking SP2 I think it brings many needed improvements. However like the title says it is the worst time of the year for Microsoft to have released it for Universities and Colleges.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
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Originally posted by: n0cmonkey

How about we complain about Microsoft patenting potentially 20 year old technology? ;)

How bout we try to do something stopping our Government from passing such ridiculous Patents, that it's obvious that Microsoft owns and has bought "our" Government???

BTW, it's not just the U.S. Microsoft owns, they thought they own the U.K. too:

8-25-2004 Microsoft Found Guilty over misleading Windows Linux claims in UK

THE UK Advertising Standards Authority (ASA) has upheld a series of public complaints over an advert in a magazine comparing the cost of Linux versus Microsoft Windows.
An advert it ran compared the two operating systems to each other, but Windows was running on a measly dual 900MHz Xeon configuration, while Linux was running on a z900 IBM mainframe.

The advert appeared in an IT magazine and was headed: "Weighing the cost of Linux vs Windows? Let's review the facts".

The ad contained a graph comparing the cost in US dollars between a Linux images running on two z900 mainframe CPUs and a Windows Server 2003 image running two 900MHz Intel Xeons chips.

The people who complained challenged whether such a comparison was misleading, because the operating systems were run on different hardware.The IBM z900 running Linux was 10 times more expensive than running the Windows OS.

It would have been possible to compare the two OSes on similar hardware.

The ASA said: "Because the comparison included the hardware, as well as the operating system and therefore did not show that running a Linux operating system was ten times more expensive than running a Windows operating system, the Authority concluded that the advertisement was misleading."
 

mechBgon

Super Moderator<br>Elite Member
Oct 31, 1999
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Originally posted by: Crazee
Doing a service pack through windows updates or by network deployment is very different. With a massive network deployment, you would not want it asking your users what they want set up. By default in a network deployment ICF will be turned on and set to default settings. That could cause problems for many programs in the environment so we have to test systems and software with SP2 and ICF turned on to see how we need things set and what ports need to be open for our software to function correctly.

Once the configuration is agreed upon, we have to tweek the network install so that when we roll it out all our machines receive that configuration.

Also, even though it offers you an uninstall option, in the testing we have performed so far that feature works only about 40-50% of the time. When it doesn't work you are screwed unless you have a backup or have system restore enabled on the machine.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I am not knocking SP2 I think it brings many needed improvements. However like the title says it is the worst time of the year for Microsoft to have released it for Universities and Colleges.
Excuse my ignorance, but do student's computers (that they brought from home) get joined to your AD domain as a matter of routine? You have that level of control over their privately-owned computers?
 

Crazee

Elite Member
Nov 20, 2001
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Students can choose to join the domain or not. It does make for accessing some stuff easier on them but if they choose to have their machine join they have to abide by the standards we set for the domain or the machine is removed from the domain. We do not nor would we want to force them to join.
 

n0cmonkey

Elite Member
Jun 10, 2001
42,936
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Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: n0cmonkey

How about we complain about Microsoft patenting potentially 20 year old technology? ;)

How bout we try to do something stopping our Government from passing such ridiculous Patents, that it's obvious that Microsoft owns and has bought "our" Government???

BTW, it's not just the U.S. Microsoft owns, they thought they own the U.K. too:

8-25-2004 Microsoft Found Guilty over misleading Windows Linux claims in UK

THE UK Advertising Standards Authority (ASA) has upheld a series of public complaints over an advert in a magazine comparing the cost of Linux versus Microsoft Windows.
An advert it ran compared the two operating systems to each other, but Windows was running on a measly dual 900MHz Xeon configuration, while Linux was running on a z900 IBM mainframe.

The advert appeared in an IT magazine and was headed: "Weighing the cost of Linux vs Windows? Let's review the facts".

The ad contained a graph comparing the cost in US dollars between a Linux images running on two z900 mainframe CPUs and a Windows Server 2003 image running two 900MHz Intel Xeons chips.

The people who complained challenged whether such a comparison was misleading, because the operating systems were run on different hardware.The IBM z900 running Linux was 10 times more expensive than running the Windows OS.

It would have been possible to compare the two OSes on similar hardware.

The ASA said: "Because the comparison included the hardware, as well as the operating system and therefore did not show that running a Linux operating system was ten times more expensive than running a Windows operating system, the Authority concluded that the advertisement was misleading."

It's not just Microsoft either.

And not only are governments falling for this patent bull, the IETF has been bought out by corporations for years. The words "closed" and "standards" should be mutually exclusive.