Oregon launching new program to tax drivers per mile

[Cogman]

Wasn't hating on electric cars, just talking physics. Lots of people think "battery technology can improve" just like people think better solar panels will make the sun generate more energy per square inch at 96 million miles attenuation through an atmosphere. But they need to understand a battery will never have the energy density of a liquid fuel. It's just physics.

If you can work around the compromises and meet your needs, great. I'm just laying out reality that electric batteries will never replace liquid fueled systems in energy density required for range and power. As you point out by the fact that you should also have a ICE car as well.

I don't know that I believe this fully. There are several battery techs on the horizon that may prove this statement completely wrong. Most of these density increasers rely heavily on nano-structures and atomic level organization. The only reason we don't see them everywhere is that we haven't yet found a way to mass produce these techniques (and that is certainly a big challenge).

That said, it is entirely feasible that one day an all electric car will have the same range/if not more as an ICE without being ridiculously expensive (the Tesla).

Now, where I agree fully with you is the convenience of charging. The fact is, I can't see battery swapping done reliably. It relies on the stations being honest and on a metric ton of electricity going into each station to recharge enough batteries to keep people on the road.

For most people, this isn't a huge deal. 8 hours of charging at 120V and 10A is something our current infrastructure can do and that can get our cars to where they need to go (daily commuters). What it doesn't solve is the problem of long range movers, semi trucks, etc.

What I see as the future of cars is plugin hybrids. Likely, they will top off at around 50 miles all electric, after that, the batter packs will simply get smaller. That will cover 90% of use cases while giving the commuter the ability to go long distances.

 

[chucky2]

Once we hit 200-250 mi on a full overnight electric charge, and getting price down to at least close to gas, that is going to change purchasing dynamics. That type of mileage is very sufficient for most people, and especially if fast charge can restore that in 10min or less to 80% capacity or something like that.

Unfortunately, we have job justifiers at CARB and EPA. And, hence, instead of freezing light duty diesel to Euro V specs with possibly meeting current and future particle count limits in Euro VI and beyond, and then just adopting that as our national standard, we've got the low to middle mileage options we're stuck with now, rather than the superior Clean Diesel we could have.

All we need is a bridge until battery tech gets here, 30 years maybe at most.

Chuck

 

[SparkyJJO]

Even with a 200 mile range, what about if you drive further than that? Say, going on a vacation?

 

[Fern]

Oh yeah, we've had long discussions about this. General consensus is the country would be better off with just a consumption tax and no income tax.

No Shorty. A ton of people strongly oppose a general sales tax on the basis that is it regressive.

Fern

 

[Cogman]

Once we hit 200-250 mi on a full overnight electric charge, and getting price down to at least close to gas, that is going to change purchasing dynamics. That type of mileage is very sufficient for most people, and especially if fast charge can restore that in 10min or less to 80% capacity or something like that.

That (fast charge) just isn't going to happen without a major overhaul of the current electrical grid (which is unlikely, WAY too many NIMBYs to keep it from happening).

There is a huge amount of power required. For example, tesla has a 60kWh battery. In other words, to provide that much power for a 20 minute charge would require something that can put out 180kW. That is crazy. To put it in comparison, the max output a 120V 15A home power socket is 1.8kW. Thats right, you would need a pipe that is capable of 100x more power output than the average home socket allows.

Not to mention, you don't want to start a fire from charging the battery that fast, so you either need an awesome cooling system around the battery.

And before you say "but tech improves" the fact is, electric cars and motors are something like 90% efficient, so yeah, we aren't going to reduce the battery pack power storage requirement any time soon. We might get marginal gains by decreasing the weight of vehicles, but really nothing that will significantly reduce the power requirements.

 

[MtnMan]

First it has to be GPS based vs. odometer or they will be taxed for mileage driven in other states or countries. That would never stand up in court.

And if they go with GPS to accumulate only in state mileage, they will be collecting data of everywhere you drive, and where. They could even send you speeding tickets based on this data.

The government is already reading your email, listening to every phone call, why not track exactly where your vehicle every moment of the day.

NC debated this several years ago, tax us on odometer readings taken during annual safety/emissions inspections. But that does not allow any way to measure in state and out of state mileage. The car your child has at college, comes home twice a year so it accumulates 200 miles in state, yet they drive 15,000 in other states, and the state taxes you for all 15,200 miles. I don't think so.

 

[davmat787]

I don't know that I believe this fully. There are several battery techs on the horizon that may prove this statement completely wrong. Most of these density increasers rely heavily on nano-structures and atomic level organization. The only reason we don't see them everywhere is that we haven't yet found a way to mass produce these techniques (and that is certainly a big challenge).

That said, it is entirely feasible that one day an all electric car will have the same range/if not more as an ICE without being ridiculously expensive (the Tesla).

I want a Tesla Model S so bad my bones hurt. I have never liked electric cars before, or ever really lusted for an automobile before. The engineering Tesla has managed to perform for such a newcomer is ridiculous.

The fact that the torque band is in the entire RPM range is certainly a plus too. :awe:

 

[1prophet]

I demand a tax credit then since my soft 000 treadwear tires help lay down protective coating rather than hurt anything. Actually the shitty roads hurt my tires more than I wear out the road.

Oh, and everything can be defeated, don't be so arrogant. Have you ever built or worked on anything electrical or mechanical in your life?

Integrated into the cars computer? Stand alone EFI computer and an OBDII emulator. Because FU. FPGAs > totalitarian assholes. Funny thing is they would go through all this effort to make it hard to defeat, and all you'd have to do is run an alternate VSS or run a clock divider on its output pulses :awe:

If necessary, put the factory system back together once every two years. You can tax the 3 miles a year to the emissions station.

People like me give 0 fux what "you'd rather see".

They will follow the EPA's example and go after the modification companies driving the whole thing underground making the few die hards left like yourself statistically irrelevant since most people want a turnkey package.

http://www.svtperformance.com/forums/road-side-pub-17/810187-epa-goes-after-sct.html

http://yosemite.epa.gov/opa/admpres...0f84561e0cf2ab7f85257af6006c4dbd!OpenDocument

Automotive Electronics Manufacturer Fined $500,000 for Selling Illegal Devices Resulting in Tons of Excess Particulate Matter Emissions