Oregon fines man $500 for using math to challenge red-light cameras

[boomerang]

Eh what? The only way to fight a broken law with math is to get a license from the state? Seems rather oppressive if you ask me.

Evidently that's how things are done in Oregon. To question the state one must be licensed by the state. This has make perfect sense in various totalitarian regimes throughout history.

 

[interchange]

If he represented himself as a licensed professional engineer intentionally rather than incidentally, then I agree with the fine. Although, as someone who holds an engineering degree, a PE certification does not ring as a definition of expert in this context, it is up to the court to determine their qualifications.

If, on the other hand, it was an inadvertent choice of words, then I support no punitive action by the court regardless of law or how much he annoyed them.

 

[chowderhead]

Oregon was just trying to combat the rampant engineering fraud that they just know is happening. Big government Republicans who love voter ID should be in full support.

 

[boomerang]

And yet this is still not a defense for spreading FUD.

Look I know you're a control freak but you've been around here long enough that if you don't know, you should know, that Dave has been disciplined a number of times for having thread titles that are a deviation from the information in the body of the post. The solution is to have a thread title that is exactly the same as the title of the article the post centers around.

Your argument is with the author of the article. You consider yourself to be extremely bright and you should have easily been able to discern that but for reasons known to you alone, you wish to argue a point that doesn't amount to shit. Give yourself a big ol' pat on the back and gaze in the mirror just a little bit longer today. Blowing yourself a kiss while admiring yourself is, of course, optional.

And how about getting your ass into the recent threads by Phokus that have proven pretty much right out of the gate to have been based on fake news. No cries for those thread titles to be changed, no cries to lock them up. Your team has no desire to police the threads from members of your own team. But by golly, you're not going to stand by and let members of the opposing team make threads that might be deemed to disparage a community in one state in the nation. No fucking siree, ain't gonna let that happen.

Meanwhile my team just kind of lets it all roll off of us while people such as yourself tell us we're fascists. It's comical and makes you look real smart within your own mind.

If I had participation trophies to hand out, I'd give you one.

 

[Vic]

Evidently that's how things are done in Oregon. To question the state one must be licensed by the state. This has make perfect sense in various totalitarian regimes throughout history.

Thank you for your stupid.

 

[zinfamous]

Look I know you're a control freak but you've been around here long enough that if you don't know, you should know, that Dave has been disciplined a number of times for having thread titles that are a deviation from the information in the body of the post. The solution is to have a thread title that is exactly the same as the title of the article the post centers around.

Your argument is with the author of the article. You consider yourself to be extremely bright and you should have easily been able to discern that but for reasons known to you alone, you wish to argue a point that doesn't amount to shit. Give yourself a big ol' pat on the back and gaze in the mirror just a little bit longer today. Blowing yourself a kiss while admiring yourself is, of course, optional.

you do realize that my criticism of your weak defense in support of FUD-flinging is, ostensibly, the same criticism of Dave, right?

lol, now I'm a control freak. You guys have to generate new paradigms on a weekly basis to explain away the repeated rejections of your typical nonsense, rather than actively explore why you might actually be logically deficient.

 

[Vic]

So a couple things here:
- Oregon has built into its state constitution what are unquestionably the broadest free speech protections in the entire US. Seriously. In fact, it's why Portland has so many strip clubs, the state supreme court ruled that they are free speech. For real. Billboards too.
- If you prepare an engineering cert, and sign it as an 'Engineer,' like what happened here, then you are representing yourself as an engineer, regardless if there are mathematics in it or not. And if it turns out that you are not a licensed engineer, then you are likely to be fined and/or sanctioned by the applicable state licensing agency, regardless of the state.

 

[dainthomas]

True story: I got a speeding in a school zone ticket from one of their photo radar vans back in July 06. Right in front of McKay school on Scholls Ferry rd. School was out that day, and I was doing the regular posted speed limit of 35. I took a copy of the school calendar and the state statute (that school zones only apply on school days) to the judge, and he refused to dismiss the ticket. Instead, he invited me to appeal to a higher court. Over a $195 ticket.

That doesn't surprise me at all with Beaverton.

 

[1sikbITCH]

Who cares about the fine? I am sure many folks are happy the guy is exposing the corruption and would gladly pitch in. 5 minutes on GoFundMe will handle that. It's more concerning they are trying to bury this news instead of having their own engineers debunk it if they believe it's untrue. The fact that they are not looking at the evidence suggests they already know it's true and don't want to lose that money coming in.

 

[EduCat]

Here in Chicago we have known these things to be bullshit for some time now. The lights here are the fasts I've ever seen. Less than 1 second between each change. We also have ridiculous ass speed cameras as well, everyone knows they're BS.

 

[Moonbeam]

Learn to ignore that which upsets you and is of little consequences and you may be happier for it.

Learn that when you learn to ignore what upsets you you learn to ignore whether what upsets you is worth getting upset over or not, and that the resultant supposed happiness may not just be a case of ignorance is bliss, which it isn't. What you are calling for is the conservative brain defect in a nut shell.

 

[ElFenix]

So a couple things here:
- Oregon has built into its state constitution what are unquestionably the broadest free speech protections in the entire US. Seriously. In fact, it's why Portland has so many strip clubs, the state supreme court ruled that they are free speech. For real. Billboards too.
- If you prepare an engineering cert, and sign it as an 'Engineer,' like what happened here, then you are representing yourself as an engineer, regardless if there are mathematics in it or not. And if it turns out that you are not a licensed engineer, then you are likely to be fined and/or sanctioned by the applicable state licensing agency, regardless of the state.

exactly. but the stupid buzzfeed-like "article" in the OP completely botched that analysis and jumped straight to stupid. you cannot title yourself "Professional Engineer" without being a P.E. and he knows that if he's a practicing engineer.

 

[GagHalfrunt]

As we speak the Oregon legislature is undoubtedly preparing a new statute to expand it to words too. It's much harder to appeal fines if you're not allowed to speak or write.

 

[Fenixgoon]

except this isn't a case of restricting free speech. it has to do with the aspect of representing oneself as an engineer in a legal case.

the guy was fined by the OSBEELS (Oregon State Board of Examiners for Engineering and Land Surveying), not the state of Oregon.

now, I happen to think that argument is bullshit (that you need an engineering license of some kind), but that's the reality of our legal system when it comes to legal cases. a licensure "proves" you are an "expert". in reality, it just ensures some minimum standard for liability purposes - why it's important in buildings and bridges.

but the rest of the world works just fine without licensed engineers (cars, planes, spacecraft, etc). so i generally speaking disagree with proponents for licensure, but i understand in some cases it is valuable.

 

[Moonbeam]

True story: I got a speeding in a school zone ticket from one of their photo radar vans back in July 06. Right in front of McKay school on Scholls Ferry rd. School was out that day, and I was doing the regular posted speed limit of 35. I took a copy of the school calendar and the state statute (that school zones only apply on school days) to the judge, and he refused to dismiss the ticket. Instead, he invited me to appeal to a higher court. Over a $195 ticket.

I have had similar experiences and if I face one again I will go all the way and demand a jury trial. If I am going to be milked for revenue for a fascist state, I will make they pay for the trial and make my case to other citizens. I got a ticket for having an unregistered car that I had rolled out of my garage into my driveway to make it available to be towed for charity on a day I wouldn't be home. Since you have to register cars that are on public roads and not on private land, who knew of such a regulation.

 

[ElFenix]

except this isn't a case of restricting free speech. it has to do with the aspect of representing oneself as an engineer in a legal case.

the guy was fined by the OSBEELS (Oregon State Board of Examiners for Engineering and Land Surveying), not the state of Oregon.

now, I happen to think that argument is bullshit (that you need an engineering license of some kind), but that's the reality of our legal system when it comes to legal cases. a licensure "proves" you are an "expert". in reality, it just ensures some minimum standard for liability purposes - why it's important in buildings and bridges.

but the rest of the world works just fine without licensed engineers (cars, planes, spacecraft, etc). so i generally speaking disagree with proponents for licensure, but i understand in some cases it is valuable.

plenty of states don't require licensure to be a testifying expert (some states as part of their licensing acts do require testifying experts to be licensed as it's seen as practicing the art for the public), and even those that do are still going through the daubert factors to qualify experts. and expert in a legal sense only means that you can give opinion testimony.

here's oregon's statute:

Applying special knowledge of the mathematical, physical and engineering sciences to such professional services or creative work as consultation, investigation, testimony, evaluation, planning, design and services during construction, manufacture or fabrication for the purpose of ensuring compliance with specifications and design, in connection with any public or private utilities, structures, buildings, machines, equipment, processes, works or projects.

https://www.oregonlaws.org/ors/672.005

(1) A person is practicing or offering to practice engineering if the person:

(a) By verbal claim, sign, advertisement, letterhead, card or in any other way implies that the person is or purports to be a registered professional engineer;

(b) Through the use of some other title implies that the person is an engineer or a registered professional engineer; or

(c) Purports to be able to perform, or who does perform, any service or work that is defined by ORS 672.005 (Additional definitions) as the practice of engineering.

https://www.oregonlaws.org/ors/672.007

so, again, this isn't a requirement imposed by the legal system. it's a requirement imposed by the state legislature, probably at the behest of an engineering advocacy group.

 

[Darwin333]

Professional Engineer - Is a state licensed term. The fine would be similar if the guy tried to represent somebody in court without passing the state bar.

Elements of buildings /infrastructure need to be stamped by a licensed professional engineer in the state in which they are built. For instance, if he's an electrical engineer, he cannot stamp an electrical motor for a pump station, or a transformer for a building or something along those lines.

http://www.oregon.gov/Osbeels/pages/index.aspx

And the fine is only $500 for impersonating a licensed engineer in situations that really really freaking matter like being a structural engineer for new construction???

 

[Darwin333]

I have had similar experiences and if I face one again I will go all the way and demand a jury trial. If I am going to be milked for revenue for a fascist state, I will make they pay for the trial and make my case to other citizens. I got a ticket for having an unregistered car that I had rolled out of my garage into my driveway to make it available to be towed for charity on a day I wouldn't be home. Since you have to register cars that are on public roads and not on private land, who knew of such a regulation.

Your driveway should be private property and in every situation I've ever heard of they make you pay for court costs. It's one of the reasons most people just pay the fine, the court costs of fighting it are much higher.

 

[Darwin333]

plenty of states don't require licensure to be a testifying expert (some states as part of their licensing acts do require testifying experts to be licensed as it's seen as practicing the art for the public), and even those that do are still going through the daubert factors to qualify experts. and expert in a legal sense only means that you can give opinion testimony.

here's oregon's statute:

https://www.oregonlaws.org/ors/672.005


https://www.oregonlaws.org/ors/672.007

so, again, this isn't a requirement imposed by the legal system. it's a requirement imposed by the state legislature, probably at the behest of an engineering advocacy group.

In all fairness to the guy in question, someone had to dig really deep to charge and fine this guy considering he was contesting a traffic ticket.

 

[The Merg]

Your driveway should be private property and in every situation I've ever heard of they make you pay for court costs. It's one of the reasons most people just pay the fine, the court costs of fighting it are much higher.

If you win the case, you do not need to pay the court costs. In VA, if you appeal a conviction in General District Court, you pay a bond to send it up to Circuit Court, which you get back. However, if you lose in Circuit Court you then pay court costs which are a couple hundred dollars. You also can't ask for a jury for a traffic violation. If you happen to appeal a criminal violation and ask for a jury, the court costs are even more.

- Merg

 

[Darwin333]

If you win the case, you do not need to pay the court costs. In VA, if you appeal a conviction in General District Court, you pay a bond to send it up to Circuit Court, which you get back. However, if you lose in Circuit Court you then pay court costs which are a couple hundred dollars. You also can't ask for a jury for a traffic violation. If you happen to appeal a criminal violation and ask for a jury, the court costs are even more.

- Merg

All true but unless you have a damn good argument or I've heard of people winning because the cop didn't show up for 3 court appearances and the court must then toss the case, your chances of convincing a judge are generally slim to none.

 

[The Merg]

All true but unless you have a damn good argument or I've heard of people winning because the cop didn't show up for 3 court appearances and the court must then toss the case, your chances of convincing a judge are generally slim to none.

Not sure where your "3 court appearances" rule came from, but if the officer doesn't show up in court and did not call in due to being sick or another valid reason, the case is dismissed.

And here in VA, if you appeal to Circuit Court, it is a trial de novo, which means it is a brand new trial. What happened in the lower court has no bearing in the Circuit Court.

- Merg

 

[sm625]

Apparently in Oregon you have to have a license for free speech.

Just how the sh!+libs like it. Template for the new 'merica. Where you need a license to poop, unless you're an illegal immigrant on welfare of course.

 

[brycejones]

Just how the sh!+libs like it. Template for the new 'merica. Where you need a license to poop, unless you're an illegal immigrant on welfare of course.

Damn, you're working on making michal1980 look like a thoughtful and intelligent poster.

 

[hal2kilo]

Damn, you're working on making michal1980 look like a thoughtful and intelligent poster.

Somebody's got to do it.