Opteron to support Palladium (In addition to Intel Prescott)

Page 2 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

Dulanic

Diamond Member
Oct 27, 2000
9,968
592
136
It has to be supported by both hardware AND software...

"The new microprocessor, which will run both existing 32-bit applications and specially recompiled 64-bit programs, will support "Palladium", a set of security and privacy features Microsoft is building into its products. "

So actually the hardware just supports the OS and its features.
 

klah

Diamond Member
Aug 13, 2002
7,070
1
0
Originally posted by: Wolfsraider

mac's are looking intresting as well as console gaming:(

Better not get the xbox then, that is where microsoft has been testing all of this stuff.
Listen to the recorded conference call here [~50min]: http://biz.yahoo.com/cc/2/20822.html
Microsoft made nvidia EAT a bunch of parts they had produced for xbox because they wanted to move to the next phase of security protocols.
 

Dulanic

Diamond Member
Oct 27, 2000
9,968
592
136
Originally posted by: klah
Originally posted by: Wolfsraider

mac's are looking intresting as well as console gaming:(

Better not get the xbox then, that is where microsoft has been testing all of this stuff.
Listen to the recorded conference call here [~50min]: http://biz.yahoo.com/cc/2/20822.html
Microsoft made nvidia EAT a bunch of parts they had produced for xbox because they wanted to move to the next phase of security protocols.

MS has done nothing but shaft Nvidia over and over with the xbox, they want parts below the cost to make them, make nvidia eat a bunch of stock amoung other things.
 

Utterman

Platinum Member
Apr 17, 2001
2,147
0
71
The article is WRONG!

From the inquier,

...according to an AMD UK representative, AMD's Opteron products will run any kind of content in the future -- contrary to the report in The Age, on which our original report, below, was based.
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
Bah, you guys are getting worked up about the wrong people. So far everything I have read from every hardware and software company that is putting out security features indicates (straight from their own mouths mind you) that all of this will be opt-in. This means if you don't like it, don't use it. But I also believe that everyone is focusing on just one aspect of these new products. Am I the only one that thinks maybe it's not just about DRM? From what I've read, it sounds like they are very interested in increasing the security on the average computer. And I've got to say, it's about time. Computers are so hideously insecure today it's not even funny. Comprehensive solutions by both hardware and software makers are needed to fix some fundamental issues with computer security.

The real bad guys here are those idiot senators and congressmen. But I don't think this will get out of hand, even with these guys behind it. All it would take is some 48 hours special about the government invading our privacy to help out Hollywood and those guys would fold faster than superman on laundry day. Really, stop getting all worked up about it, it's not going to happen.
 

Sunner

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
11,641
0
76
Rainsford, the problem isn't Palladium in itself, since as you say, it's opt-in.

But when everything begins rquiring you to have it activated, thats when hell will break lose.
 

splice

Golden Member
Jun 6, 2001
1,275
0
0
From AMDZone.com

Update: AMD has contacted The Inquirer and indeed Opteron will not support Palladium. Apparently that was some creative writing on the part of the outfit that posted the story.
 

Snoop

Golden Member
Oct 11, 1999
1,424
0
76
Originally posted by: splice
From AMDZone.com

Update: AMD has contacted The Inquirer and indeed Opteron will not support Palladium. Apparently that was some creative writing on the part of the outfit that posted the story.
Scchhwiiinnngggg
 

SteelyKen

Senior member
Mar 1, 2000
540
0
0
[B.S.]I don't see any reason to get all worked up about palladium. This is great news for the consumer! Now that piracy can be effectively thwarted, this will mean lower prices for music and movies for everyone![/B.S.]
 

tcrosson

Senior member
Oct 24, 1999
308
0
0
Is there a petition we can sign against this garbage?

How else can we make an attempt to stop it?
 

krackato

Golden Member
Aug 10, 2000
1,058
0
0
Well, glad to read that AMDzone.com quote. Honestly, why in gods name would AMD support Palladium if not including it is going to give them a critical advantage with consumers with their chief competitor? Seems to me that with Hammer and the fact that Intel will have this Palladium crap (of which I know very little, but everyone seems to say it's slightly worse than ebola) that AMD will be able to make major strides in becoming a bigger player against Intel. And as I've always said, competition is good. I still think we'd be at 2ghz for $500 a chip if there was only Intel.
 

dexvx

Diamond Member
Feb 2, 2000
3,899
0
0
Originally posted by: krackato
Well, glad to read that AMDzone.com quote. Honestly, why in gods name would AMD support Palladium if not including it is going to give them a critical advantage with consumers with their chief competitor? Seems to me that with Hammer and the fact that Intel will have this Palladium crap (of which I know very little, but everyone seems to say it's slightly worse than ebola) that AMD will be able to make major strides in becoming a bigger player against Intel. And as I've always said, competition is good. I still think we'd be at 2ghz for $500 a chip if there was only Intel.

Your comments and preceptions about the development cycle is flawed. People say, we'd just be at 800Mhz if it werent for AMD, have no idea what they're saying. The development cycle for something as complicated as a processor takes years. Once you are near the point where it is shipping, you dont say, oh geez, it looks like we have no competition, so therefore we're going to axe it, is utterly stupid. There may be discrepancies between the actual clock speeds, but not in the processor in general.

AMD has supported Palladium from the day it was launched. Intel has not. I would be more surprised if AMD yanked Palladium support out than if Intel did it.

I think the main focus of this is to combat piracy. There has been many attempts to thwart piracy on the software level, and each of them has ended up failing miserably. Regardless of how you put it, piracy is a problem today, and will be in the near future. While I do not agree with this on privacy grounds, I feel that the piracy has gotten to a moot point where poeple think its ok to steal IP (intellectual property) from others. There are Fair-Use agreements, but pirating an OS that you use everyday doesnt constitute as "fair-use." Yes the RIAA and MPAA are monopolies and need to be taken down, but that still doesnt divert from the fact that IP stealing in general is illegal and should be stopped.
 

dexvx

Diamond Member
Feb 2, 2000
3,899
0
0
Originally posted by: splice
From AMDZone.com

Update: AMD has contacted The Inquirer and indeed Opteron will not support Palladium. Apparently that was some creative writing on the part of the outfit that posted the story.

Who cares about Opteron? Opteron is the high end chip, which means that usually businesses will have them, and businesses dont usually dance around the law when it comes to computing practices. I want to know if the DESKTOP version of the Hammer will have it. Does anyone have confirmation about the ClawHammer?
 

pm

Elite Member Mobile Devices
Jan 25, 2000
7,419
22
81
Pointing out one thing that no one has mentioned:

How long does it take to design and productize a modern high-performance microprocessor? Call it roughly 250 people for 5 years. Sometimes more, sometimes less. This is a good number to work with though.

At what point must you stop adding big changes to this design such that you can actually get it out into the market in a timely fashion (in other words, at what point do you have to freeze the design in order to meet schedule)? About 3 years before you release it all features need to be included.

If a bill like the SSSCA were to be passed by Congress mandating that all devices, including your multi-million CPU design must have some form of TCPA technology otherwise it couldn't be sold, how far ahead would a CPU design company have to be looking for this not to impact them? The answer here is "it depends on a lot of things". But you don't hedge your company on a bad bet, and it costs little to include these features, but not including them could preclude the product's sale in a couple of years.

This applies both to hardware, and, in Microsoft's case, to software. They have long product cycles, that involve lots of people. You can't add features in on the fly and still hope that the schedule will be ok on software any more than you can on hardware.

Besides, as I mentioned in the other thread, these technologies are essentially opt-in. You don't have to use the software if you don't want the feature, and if enough people don't use it (like Circuit City's Divx), it will just disappear. The real danger is legislation like the DCMA, the SSSCA and other DRM legislation that mandates the use of copy-prevention technology.

If you want to fight this, get on the mailing list for the EFF, send in your donation (like I did), receive your t-shirt (like I have), wear it frequently (but not too frequently... it might start smelling) and get involved in writing letters (like I do - I have mailed in over a dozen personalized letters to my representatives over the last year). I see a lot of people who write angry soundbites in threads like these, but how many of these people are actually writing letters to their Congressional representatives? If Congress only hears from the RIAA and MPAA lobbyists, then they only hear one side of the story. Write letters to Intel, AMD and Microsoft, if you must, but the really important people to write to are in Congress.

* I am never speaking as a representative of Intel , but in this thread in particular, I am most definitely not speaking for Intel Corp but merely as a concerned geek *
 

Bluga

Banned
Nov 28, 2000
4,315
0
0
Originally posted by: dexvx
Originally posted by: splice
From AMDZone.com

Update: AMD has contacted The Inquirer and indeed Opteron will not support Palladium. Apparently that was some creative writing on the part of the outfit that posted the story.

Who cares about Opteron? Opteron is the high end chip, which means that usually businesses will have them, and businesses dont usually dance around the law when it comes to computing practices. I want to know if the DESKTOP version of the Hammer will have it. Does anyone have confirmation about the ClawHammer?

Yes there will be a deskyop version. *confirmed*

 

klah

Diamond Member
Aug 13, 2002
7,070
1
0
Originally posted by: pm
Besides, as I mentioned in the other thread, these technologies are essentially opt-in. You don't have to use the software if you don't want the feature, and if enough people don't use it (like Circuit City's Divx), it will just disappear.

Here is the problem with that.

1)Open Opera/Mozilla/Netscape7.
2)Go to http://windowsupdate.microsoft.com
3)Read the message: " You need to be running a version of Internet Explorer 5 or higher in order to use Windows Update."
If enough people stop using IE, it is not going to disappear; if they want to update Windows.

Now imagine it is 2006, you go to visit Yahoo, Google, MSN, AOL/TimeWarner Sites, Amazon, Ebay, Anandtech; and are greeted with this message: "Thank You for your interest in our site. Unfortunately your hardware does not allow for a secure browsing experience. Please upgrade to TCPA-compiant hardware from these companies: TCPA Compliant Products. We look forward to seeing you in the future."

How optional is it going to be then?
 

pm

Elite Member Mobile Devices
Jan 25, 2000
7,419
22
81
Now imagine it is 2006, you go to visit Yahoo, Google, MSN, AOL/TimeWarner Sites, Amazon, Ebay, Anandtech; and are greeted with this message: "Thank You for your interest in our site. Unfortunately your hardware does not allow for a secure browsing experience. Please upgrade to TCPA-compiant hardware from these companies: TCPA Compliant Products. We look forward to seeing you in the future." How optional is it going to be then?

But why would, to choose one from the list, Anandtech switch you from your hardware/software of choice to something that you aren't currently using? They risk losing readers doing so which risks their entire business model (readers, subscribers, advertising). We can all see why MS wants you to access Windows Update with Internet Explorer, and we can see that they can get away with this since they ship Windows with Internet Explorer and they control the Windows Update website. But why would Google, Anandtech, Amazon, Ebay, and the other non-media companies on that list alienate their users by demanding TCPA connections? The only motivation that makes sense to me is if they are forced to - unless there's some obvious benefit of the TCPA to non-media companies that I'm not thinking of.

To me this is like current MP3 players. We have CF, SM cards that work in any MP3 player and basically let you do what you want with your music, your player and your computer. And we have "secure digital" (SD) media that limits your uses. No one is forcing you to buy a SD player. I'm not going to buy, no one else that I know is going to buy one. They have one big advantage over CF and SM cards in that the players can access the "official" media websites, but that alone is not going to motivate people to use them in light of the restrictions that they implement.

Or the MS Passport. MS wants everyone using MS Passport, but if, say, Newegg switched over and required Passports to buy things from them, I'd shrug and switch to a new online vendor. And since a lot of people feel as I do about the MS Passport, how long would it be before that company switched back to just accepting regular purchases.

These are two examples of hardware/software implemented security that do not seem to be taking off any time soon. What will cause people to switch to TCPA? The only thing that occurs to me is legislation. Which goes back to my point - which is that computer users need to be more involved in the political process than they have been so far. Hardware support isn't the danger, in my mind - it's mandatory legislation requiring you to use this hardware support. Like legislation mandating the use of SD in all MP3 players would switch people from CF/SM MP3 players to SD "MP3" players.
 

Wolfsraider

Diamond Member
Jan 27, 2002
8,305
0
76
Originally posted by: klah
Originally posted by: pm
Besides, as I mentioned in the other thread, these technologies are essentially opt-in. You don't have to use the software if you don't want the feature, and if enough people don't use it (like Circuit City's Divx), it will just disappear.

Here is the problem with that.

1)Open Opera/Mozilla/Netscape7.
2)Go to http://windowsupdate.microsoft.com
3)Read the message: " You need to be running a version of Internet Explorer 5 or higher in order to use Windows Update."
If enough people stop using IE, it is not going to disappear; if they want to update Windows.

Now imagine it is 2006, you go to visit Yahoo, Google, MSN, AOL/TimeWarner Sites, Amazon, Ebay, Anandtech; and are greeted with this message: "Thank You for your interest in our site. Unfortunately your hardware does not allow for a secure browsing experience. Please upgrade to TCPA-compiant hardware from these companies: TCPA Compliant Products. We look forward to seeing you in the future."

How optional is it going to be then?

almost everything in windows update can be found elsewhere so it depends on how bad you need what is there doesn't it?
 

MadRat

Lifer
Oct 14, 1999
11,999
307
126
This technology has alot of uses for network security believe it or not. It is not purely intended for the RIAA/MCPA.
 

Wingznut

Elite Member
Dec 28, 1999
16,968
2
0
Yes, this technology will increase security ten-fold. It really is an incredible advancement in online security.

And while I can see how some would have privacy concerns... I really see this as "much ado about nothing", similar to the cpu serial numbers.

I know for a fact that Intel's LaGrande Technology will be able to be turned off if you choose not to use it. And I have yet to hear anything official about this technology being used to "refuse to play certain content if it is not digitally signed by Microsoft or an authorised party."

As pm said... Alienating users is obviously not in the best interest of MS, AMD, or Intel.