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Opinions please

VirtualLarry

No Lifer
I worked on a friend's PC yesterday. Upgraded his AM2+ rig from 2x2GB DDR2-800 to some Chinese 2x4GB DDR2. Had some issues.

I realized later, that I hadn't been shutting the PSU off at the back, before swapping the RAM. Lazy me. How likely is that to have damaged the RAM or the CPU's memory-controller?
 
I often forget, and I haven't had a problem yet.

Did you put the old ram back in and still have issues?
 
Haven't put the old RAM back in.

Basically, he had a shutoff (which initially he said he was plugging in a USB charging cable, but then recanted and said he was only thinking about doing that, he claims he didn't actually plug it in, and the shutoff was entirely coincidental), and one hard-freeze, requiring a PSU shut-down shut-down and reboot.

If he continues to have issues, that's what I'm going to do, put in his old RAM.
 
Weren't you told in your other thread to avoid that memory in the first place? I find it extremely unlikely he could have damaged something by plugging in a USB cable. I also know people that shut down their computer by the power switch with no hardware related ill effects.
 
I had already ordered the RAM in question, when I had started the other thread. Or at least, I did, after I posted the OP. Anyways, the RAM is indeed garbage, IMHO. Too flaky, causes machines to shutdown, etc. Very bad. But strange, it will pass Windows 7's boot-time memory testing just fine, and it stayed running for a few hours while we all went out to eat. That's why I wonder if it was his USB adventure, and not the RAM. But anyways, I put the old RAM back in.

I think that if he continues to now have problems, then perhaps the USB issue is what caused the problem.

Do note, that plugging in an e-cig into a "standard" older USB2.0 port (one that can only source 500ma), will likely shutdown and can damage the mobo, depending on whether the mobo implements USB protections. You really need a 1000ma (1A) USB port or better for those.
 
I bought a few sets of no-name ddr2 sets a while back off ebay, they are total trash, don't work worth a damn. If you are extremely careful handling them and putting them in the machine right away, maybe they work. But pretty much any common handling of these memory sticks causes them to go bad.

And, I've never seen unbuffered 4gb ddr2 desktop ram sticks? Likely not compatible with the motherboard even if it were quality ram.
 
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Do note, that plugging in an e-cig into a "standard" older USB2.0 port (one that can only source 500ma), will likely shutdown and can damage the mobo, depending on whether the mobo implements USB protections. You really need a 1000ma (1A) USB port or better for those.

Explain how exactly that's going to happen? You're basically using your computer as a battery charger at that point. You hook an under powered charger up to a battery and it just charges slower. It doesn't damage the charger.

If it worked that way the internet would be flooded with computers being fried by USB devices. It's not.
 
Do note, that plugging in an e-cig into a "standard" older USB2.0 port (one that can only source 500ma), will likely shutdown and can damage the mobo, depending on whether the mobo implements USB protections. You really need a 1000ma (1A) USB port or better for those.

It shouldn't cause anything to the mainboard. It would just draw 500mA.
 
It shouldn't cause anything to the mainboard. It would just draw 500mA.

Nope, it can cause reboots and shutdowns. At least, it happened to my friend with an A85X board. Once I told him to stop plugging his E-cig into his PC's USB ports, the problems stopped. So much for MSI's "Military Class" components.

Not all ports and devices negotiate their current requirements properly. Especially Chinese clone E-cigs.
 
Explain how exactly that's going to happen? You're basically using your computer as a battery charger at that point. You hook an under powered charger up to a battery and it just charges slower.

That's not how it works either. My HP Stream 7 requires 2A to charge. Connecting it to a PC regular USB port doesn't charge slower, it doesn't charge at all. Because if it did, it would likely blow the fuse on the USB port, if it was even fused.
 
That's not how it works either. My HP Stream 7 requires 2A to charge. Connecting it to a PC regular USB port doesn't charge slower, it doesn't charge at all. Because if it did, it would likely blow the fuse on the USB port, if it was even fused.

That's exactly how it works. Your two isolated incidents has caused you to develop a theory with no investigation to confirm your theory. You've then told people not to take an action because of your untested theory. Let me counter both of those individually.

First, the eCig. How did you determine the cause of the reboots was the eCig was drawing too much power? How much power was it drawing when it shutdown? How much power does it draw when hooked into a wall adapter? Does it do the same thing plugged into a different computer? Was it plugged into the front or rear ports? I can't say I've ever experienced a USB device shutting down a computer, but from everything I've read Windows, Linux, and OSX will tell you a device is drawing more power than it's supposed to and shutdown the port or hub. More importantly, Windows and OSX (not sure about Linux) will also show you both how much power is available to the ports and how much power the device is asking for. But it might not have been a power problem either, at least not on the eCig side. If the device has a chip to negotiate, it's entirely possible it was just a crappy/incorrectly configured chip. Or, also consider the fact there's been reports of the Chinese e-Cig's being encoded with Malware. IF, and I stress the word IF, the eCig drawing too much power caused the PC to shutdown, that's as much the fault of the PC as the eCig. They are supposed to use polyswitches to cut power when draw exceeds maxes.

Second, the HP Stream. That's a shortcoming with the device. They are known for drawing too much power even when turned off. That's why battery life is so short even when powered off. It's not that it's not being provided power (aka "charged") by the computer, the tablet is just using power faster than it's getting it. Two very different things. If I turn on the GPS on my Galaxy Tab and drive out to the desert, I can get it's power draw high enough that it will lose charge even when plugged into Samsung's car charger (Cig lighter adapter or USB port). But that poses zero danger to the PC (or my car). Both devices are functioning exactly as intended. That said, a quick search shows multiple people stating they are able to charge their Stream 7 off a PC's USB although at least some reported having to lower the screen brightness to get a noticeable charge off of it.

Last but not least, a quick search shows plenty of people charging both eCigs and Stream 7's off PC USB ports. I see multiple eCig manufacturers saying you can change them off your PC's USB port. More than enough to make your blanket statement completely false. Finding ONE USB device that caused a problem is not enough to tell people nobody should plug that type of device into their computer. Especially when you don't actually know what causing the two devices to interact improperly. I've got a Startech UPS console cable and whenever I plug it in to my APC UPS, the UPS shuts off. That doesn't mean I go around telling everybody not to plug console cables into their UPS.

Not to mention there's literally millions of higher powered USB devices that are charged off plain old USB ports all the time. I've got 3 different tablets that I've charged off my PC's USB ports. My phone is plugged into my laptop's USB port for power all night at work while I watch Netflix on it. Right this second, my NZXT X61 is requesting 50mA, my HTC M8 is requesting 100mA, my G700s is requesting 498mA, and my G510s is requesting 500mA. I've also got an Asus Blu-Ray burner that uses a Y-cable to draw power from two ports to ensure it's getting enough. I can't find a single verified case of a computer being damaged from a USB device drawing too much power.
 
I have 3 of those e-cig chargers and a Samsung S3 plugged into mine, and they're feeding power constantly (everyone uses my rig as charging station). :\ No issues..
 
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That's exactly how it works. Your two isolated incidents has caused you to develop a theory with no investigation to confirm your theory. You've then told people not to take an action because of your untested theory. Let me counter both of those individually.

First, the eCig. How did you determine the cause of the reboots was the eCig was drawing too much power? How much power was it drawing when it shutdown? How much power does it draw when hooked into a wall adapter? Does it do the same thing plugged into a different computer? Was it plugged into the front or rear ports? I can't say I've ever experienced a USB device shutting down a computer, but from everything I've read Windows, Linux, and OSX will tell you a device is drawing more power than it's supposed to and shutdown the port or hub. More importantly, Windows and OSX (not sure about Linux) will also show you both how much power is available to the ports and how much power the device is asking for. But it might not have been a power problem either, at least not on the eCig side. If the device has a chip to negotiate, it's entirely possible it was just a crappy/incorrectly configured chip. Or, also consider the fact there's been reports of the Chinese e-Cig's being encoded with Malware. IF, and I stress the word IF, the eCig drawing too much power caused the PC to shutdown, that's as much the fault of the PC as the eCig. They are supposed to use polyswitches to cut power when draw exceeds maxes.

Second, the HP Stream. That's a shortcoming with the device. They are known for drawing too much power even when turned off. That's why battery life is so short even when powered off. It's not that it's not being provided power (aka "charged") by the computer, the tablet is just using power faster than it's getting it. Two very different things. If I turn on the GPS on my Galaxy Tab and drive out to the desert, I can get it's power draw high enough that it will lose charge even when plugged into Samsung's car charger (Cig lighter adapter or USB port). But that poses zero danger to the PC (or my car). Both devices are functioning exactly as intended. That said, a quick search shows multiple people stating they are able to charge their Stream 7 off a PC's USB although at least some reported having to lower the screen brightness to get a noticeable charge off of it.

Last but not least, a quick search shows plenty of people charging both eCigs and Stream 7's off PC USB ports. I see multiple eCig manufacturers saying you can change them off your PC's USB port. More than enough to make your blanket statement completely false. Finding ONE USB device that caused a problem is not enough to tell people nobody should plug that type of device into their computer. Especially when you don't actually know what causing the two devices to interact improperly. I've got a Startech UPS console cable and whenever I plug it in to my APC UPS, the UPS shuts off. That doesn't mean I go around telling everybody not to plug console cables into their UPS.

Not to mention there's literally millions of higher powered USB devices that are charged off plain old USB ports all the time. I've got 3 different tablets that I've charged off my PC's USB ports. My phone is plugged into my laptop's USB port for power all night at work while I watch Netflix on it. Right this second, my NZXT X61 is requesting 50mA, my HTC M8 is requesting 100mA, my G700s is requesting 498mA, and my G510s is requesting 500mA. I've also got an Asus Blu-Ray burner that uses a Y-cable to draw power from two ports to ensure it's getting enough. I can't find a single verified case of a computer being damaged from a USB device drawing too much power.

You could have summed up your post in a much more efficient way:

"I've never witnessed such a problem, therefore it is not a problem." 🙄

I've seen usb-powered devices cause stability issues, one system I was troubleshooting for the longest time was very unstable, clues kept pointing to the hard drive failing. After replacing the drive twice, chances of 3 consecutive drives being bad are too slim, I replaced the entire system with a different manufacturer/model system I had lying around. Same stability problems.

Finally I witnessed in Windows a notice pop up saying a usb device is drawing too much power. After we disconnected a cheap usb-powered led light & fan combo, there never was a stability issue since.

Yes, some devices can draw too much power and cause problems with systems depending on the system and the device.


You also might want to brush up on some fundamentals of electrical engineering and what happens to voltages when a device wants to draw more current than the source can supply.
 
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Finally I witnessed in Windows a notice pop up saying a usb device is drawing too much power. After we disconnected a cheap usb-powered led light & fan combo, there never was a stability issue since.

Yes, some devices can draw too much power and cause problems with systems depending on the system and the device.


You also might want to brush up on some fundamentals of electrical engineering and what happens to voltages when a device wants to draw more current than the source can supply.

Thank you. That's what I've been trying to say. Plugging in an e-cig that is rated for 5V 1A, into a USB port that can only source 5V 500ma, is a recipe for trouble.

And he wasn't charging it, he was actively using it while plugged in. Thus, it was drawing full power, it wasn't stepping down the current just to charge.
 
That's exactly how it works.

Second, the HP Stream. That's a shortcoming with the device. They are known for drawing too much power even when turned off. That's why battery life is so short even when powered off. It's not that it's not being provided power (aka "charged") by the computer, the tablet is just using power faster than it's getting it.
Nope, you're wrong. Do you even own one? Have you tried plugging it into a PC's USB port?

It's not that it's charging, slowly, but using more power during operating than is provided by the USB port charging it, it's that it ISN'T CHARGING AT ALL.

The device won't let it charge at all, unless it can negotiate a 2A charging circuit.
 
Thank you. That's what I've been trying to say. Plugging in an e-cig that is rated for 5V 1A, into a USB port that can only source 5V 500ma, is a recipe for trouble.

And he wasn't charging it, he was actively using it while plugged in. Thus, it was drawing full power, it wasn't stepping down the current just to charge.

But it shouldn't cause trouble. The USB standard includes over current protection.

With a properly designed USB port, even a dead short will not cause trouble for the whole device.

It will just shut down the port, or trip the current limiter. Most of the time, the current limiter will reset on it's own.

A dead short is the most current you could possibly try to get from the USB port.

For example, when you plug in an external USB HDD that gets power solely from the USB port, some ports cannot provide enough power. The port doesn't blow up or anything. The drive just won't spin up from lack of power. Often it will sit there making repeated attempts to spin up, with the LED blinking.

If you take the same drive, and plug it into a different system, it fires right up.

There's no question that some hardware is not built as well as other hardware, though.
 
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But it shouldn't cause trouble. The USB standard includes over current protection.
In theory, that is true. But in practice, it generally isn't.

With a properly designed USB port, even a dead short will not cause trouble for the whole device.
Plugging in my friend's webcam into his front USB2.0 ports will sometimes cause the entire PC to shut off. (I assume a dead short of the USB port, shorting out the PSU, and causing PSU safety shut off.)

For example, when you plug in an external USB HDD that gets power solely from the USB port, some ports cannot provide enough power. The port doesn't blow up or anything. The drive just won't spin up from lack of power. Often it will sit there making repeated attempts to spin up, with the LED blinking.
That's with properly designed / implemented USB ports and devices. The real world generally isn't that kind, all of the time.
 
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