Opinions on a oil price floor in the US

Brovane

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2001
5,341
1,516
136
I have been having a discussion with several of my friend and co-workers about what can be done about oil supply issues.

One idea that I came up with is to set a price floor for oil in the US. For example we would set the price floor at $100/barrel and there would be a tax on any oil traded for below $100/barrel. I remember from my economics class that a price floor usually produces a surplus of a good. This would also help to encourage continued conservation of oil in the US because this would continue to keep the fuel prices high but hopefully consistent.

With a price floor companies could feel confident investing money to pull oil out of difficult areas like deep ocean drilling our investing in oil shale technologies. For example a company if they are going to try and drill in 15000 ft of water for oil and it might cost $60 barrel to extract they can feel confident that they can turn a profit even if the price per barrel of oil crashed.

I am not sure how the tax would fully work so it could be evenly implemented if the price per barrel dropped below $100. Maybe a VAT tax to bring the price up to $100 barrel before it goes into refining. So it might look like this is the current price per barrel is $60 and your production costs are $80 barrel to extract oil from say shale this oil would have a VAT tax of $20 barrel and the oil you purchased at $60 barrel from other sources would have a VAT tax of $40 barrel. While this might be difficult I don't think this is a show stopper.

The revenue from this tax could then be used for other purposes to help facilitate the US moving away from a petroleum based economy.

Fund tax credits for example on electric cars our alternative fuel vehicles.

Fund development of improved ethanol fuel production that doesn't use food crops

Fund building of mass transit

Fund development and provide tax credits for renewable energy production.

Fund a increase of the Strategic Petroleum Reserve to 5 Billion barrels of oil. Basically a 180-days supply of oil imports. Any oil in excess of this can be released into the market as needed to bring down the price when speculators start pushing up the price.

I have discussed this with several people and both conservatives and liberals alike don't seem to have a lot of negatives to say about this line of thought on my part. However I bet that people on this board can shoot this plan full of holes, so fire away.
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
0
I say no because it would be inevitable that money would immediately be used on useless unrelated sh*t like bridges to nowhere, more useless wars, and bandaging social security. You KNOW this would happen.
 

Pabster

Lifer
Apr 15, 2001
16,987
1
0
Terrible idea. We don't need "floors" or any other price control ideas. The free market works.
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
0
Originally posted by: Pabster
Terrible idea. We don't need "floors" or any other price control ideas. The free market works [to f**k is us in the a**].
Fixed ;)

 

PingSpike

Lifer
Feb 25, 2004
21,732
561
126
Originally posted by: Skoorb
I say no because it would be inevitable that money would immediately be used on useless unrelated sh*t like bridges to nowhere, more useless wars, and bandaging social security. You KNOW this would happen.

Unfortunately...this is true. The government can't even help spending billions of dollars it doesn't even have, how long do you think a stock pile of reserve cash would last? It'd be spent on bullshit before the reserve of cash was ever filled.
 

emfiend

Member
Oct 5, 2007
100
0
0
Not a bad idea in principle. Only rpobelm is the lack of flow of capital to the lower income families (unless you believe in trickle-down economics) who are likely the ones hurt most by sustained higher prices. If somehow you could change tax laws owing to the extra income brought about by this plan, I think you could have a very equitable and self-sustaining mechanism...
 

Brovane

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2001
5,341
1,516
136
Originally posted by: Pabster
Terrible idea. We don't need "floors" or any other price control ideas. The free market works.

Is the free market working? Also the US dependence on Foreign oil presents national security issues. Is the best action with the current oil market to take no action?
 

Brovane

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2001
5,341
1,516
136
Originally posted by: emfiend
Not a bad idea in principle. Only rpobelm is the lack of flow of capital to the lower income families (unless you believe in trickle-down economics) who are likely the ones hurt most by sustained higher prices. If somehow you could change tax laws owing to the extra income brought about by this plan, I think you could have a very equitable and self-sustaining mechanism...

The lower income people are already being hurt by high oil prices. Also if no action is taken and oil decides to climb to $200+ barrel how would this effect lower income people? Do we really believe that gasoline is going to drop back down in the 1$ our 2$ gallon price range? In my opinion is what is difficult for the lower income people is when there is wide fluctuation in price. if the price can settle down at say $4 gallon and stay consistent then business and people can adjust there habits to take into account for this. One thing you could do is to improve mass transit and maybe help subsidize passes for lower income. This is a problem not easily solvable.

 

PokerGuy

Lifer
Jul 2, 2005
13,650
201
101
Oil is traded on a world market, the US can only control one small slice of that whole market (in terms of regulations etc). So let me get this straight. If the price of oil on the world market drops, US consumers would be the only ones in the world still paying $100 per barrel, and if the price goes up past the price floor, we would pay the real price. Brilliant!

A price floor only produces additional production if production is currently limited by prices that are too low. That's not the case, so even if you could do so, setting a floor price would not create significant additional production.
 

PokerGuy

Lifer
Jul 2, 2005
13,650
201
101
Originally posted by: Brovane
Originally posted by: Pabster
Terrible idea. We don't need "floors" or any other price control ideas. The free market works.

Is the free market working? Also the US dependence on Foreign oil presents national security issues. Is the best action with the current oil market to take no action?

Yes, the free market is working. Just because the price of something goes up does not mean the free market isn't working -- it's working just fine. We just need to realize that oil is a scarce good on a world market, so the price is going to reflect the availability and demand equation.

 

BurnItDwn

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
26,074
1,553
126
I really really hope it comes back down to $30 per barrel, but, I'm sure it probably wont. I suspect the floor will likely bottom out around $60-$80. End result, after the bubble bursts, prices are twice as high as they were 10 years ago ...
 

Brovane

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2001
5,341
1,516
136
Originally posted by: PokerGuy
Originally posted by: Brovane
Originally posted by: Pabster
Terrible idea. We don't need "floors" or any other price control ideas. The free market works.

Is the free market working? Also the US dependence on Foreign oil presents national security issues. Is the best action with the current oil market to take no action?

Yes, the free market is working. Just because the price of something goes up does not mean the free market isn't working -- it's working just fine. We just need to realize that oil is a scarce good on a world market, so the price is going to reflect the availability and demand equation.

Is the free market working from a national security perspective? The US is becoming more and more dependent on foreign oil and some of the areas with large oil resources are politically unstable.

Also will the free market work to nudge the US in the direction of moving away from oil? Will the free market move in the direction that is best for the US our best for the investors? Is what is best for the investors the best for the US as a country?
 

Brovane

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2001
5,341
1,516
136
Originally posted by: PokerGuy
Oil is traded on a world market, the US can only control one small slice of that whole market (in terms of regulations etc). So let me get this straight. If the price of oil on the world market drops, US consumers would be the only ones in the world still paying $100 per barrel, and if the price goes up past the price floor, we would pay the real price. Brilliant!

A price floor only produces additional production if production is currently limited by prices that are too low. That's not the case, so even if you could do so, setting a floor price would not create significant additional production.

There is several resources of oil in the US that will take 5+ years to get into production and there are long term projects like Oil Shale. It is estimated that the US sits on 800 Billion+ barrels of recoverable oil from shale. However this requires that oil be at a higher historical price than what has been normal over the last several decades. By setting a price floor we give the companies the extra incentive to know that they can go into difficult areas in the US and extract oil knowing that even if it costs $60 barrel to get the oil they can still turn a profit.
 

Brovane

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2001
5,341
1,516
136
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Declassify oil from commodity to neccesity.

End of problem.

Do you care to expand on what effect this would have and how it would be implemented?
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,894
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: Brovane
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Declassify oil from commodity to neccesity.

End of problem.

Do you care to expand on what effect this would have and how it would be implemented?

I've said many times in the oil/gas thread but I'll give you a hint; this whole notion of "Global Economy" is a bunch of bunk.
 

Atreus21

Lifer
Aug 21, 2007
12,007
572
126
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: Brovane
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Declassify oil from commodity to neccesity.

End of problem.

Do you care to expand on what effect this would have and how it would be implemented?

I've said many times in the oil/gas thread but I'll give you a hint; this whole notion of "Global Economy" is a bunch of bunk.

How do you mean?
 

miketheidiot

Lifer
Sep 3, 2004
11,062
1
0
Originally posted by: Atreus21
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: Brovane
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Declassify oil from commodity to neccesity.

End of problem.

Do you care to expand on what effect this would have and how it would be implemented?

I've said many times in the oil/gas thread but I'll give you a hint; this whole notion of "Global Economy" is a bunch of bunk.

How do you mean?

he means that he has no idea what he's talking about.

never let the government meddle in the economy just for the sake of meddling in the economy.
 

PokerGuy

Lifer
Jul 2, 2005
13,650
201
101
Originally posted by: Atreus21
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: Brovane
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Declassify oil from commodity to neccesity.

End of problem.

Do you care to expand on what effect this would have and how it would be implemented?

I've said many times in the oil/gas thread but I'll give you a hint; this whole notion of "Global Economy" is a bunch of bunk.

How do you mean?

He means "I'm just tossing out drivel again" ;)

 

JS80

Lifer
Oct 24, 2005
26,271
7
81
Originally posted by: Brovane
Originally posted by: PokerGuy
Originally posted by: Brovane
Originally posted by: Pabster
Terrible idea. We don't need "floors" or any other price control ideas. The free market works.

Is the free market working? Also the US dependence on Foreign oil presents national security issues. Is the best action with the current oil market to take no action?

Yes, the free market is working. Just because the price of something goes up does not mean the free market isn't working -- it's working just fine. We just need to realize that oil is a scarce good on a world market, so the price is going to reflect the availability and demand equation.

Is the free market working from a national security perspective? The US is becoming more and more dependent on foreign oil and some of the areas with large oil resources are politically unstable.

Also will the free market work to nudge the US in the direction of moving away from oil? Will the free market move in the direction that is best for the US our best for the investors? Is what is best for the investors the best for the US as a country?

1) Yes, it is working from a national security perspective. We have huge reserves that we can always tap at a later date, or doomsday scenario, use our military might to imperialize oil countries.

2) Yes, free market will "nudge" the US away from oil.

3) US citizens are suddenly not investors?

4) Yes. What is best for investors is generally best for country as a whole.

The free market works. You may yell bloody hell when the price of oil goes to $150, but the fact is, if there were government price controls in place, there would be huge supply shocks and you would be absolutely worse off in every situation.
 

brencat

Platinum Member
Feb 26, 2007
2,170
3
76
Originally posted by: Brovane
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Declassify oil from commodity to neccesity.

End of problem.

Do you care to expand on what effect this would have and how it would be implemented?
He means pull a Maxine Waters (nationalize the industry).

Scary.
 

emfiend

Member
Oct 5, 2007
100
0
0
Originally posted by: Brovane
Originally posted by: emfiend
Not a bad idea in principle. Only rpobelm is the lack of flow of capital to the lower income families (unless you believe in trickle-down economics) who are likely the ones hurt most by sustained higher prices. If somehow you could change tax laws owing to the extra income brought about by this plan, I think you could have a very equitable and self-sustaining mechanism...

The lower income people are already being hurt by high oil prices. Also if no action is taken and oil decides to climb to $200+ barrel how would this effect lower income people? Do we really believe that gasoline is going to drop back down in the 1$ our 2$ gallon price range? In my opinion is what is difficult for the lower income people is when there is wide fluctuation in price. if the price can settle down at say $4 gallon and stay consistent then business and people can adjust there habits to take into account for this. One thing you could do is to improve mass transit and maybe help subsidize passes for lower income. This is a problem not easily solvable.


Again, seems ok in principle. But for all I know, oil could fall below $100 and not see it again for another 10 yrs. The rich would be inconvenienced by $200 oil but the poor would be devastated. You're trading "possibly affordable unpredictability" with "predictable unaffordability". So its a matter of opinion. Also, what makes your argument fallible is that your figure of $4 was chosen somewhat subjectively. 70% of the country (those making less than $60K, I think) would find that number rather untenable as it is.

Agreed about mass transit but the country's infrastructure (read: suburbia) isn't necessarily amenable to that either...
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
173
106
Originally posted by: Brovane
-snip-

Why the hell would any country sell us oil below $100?

The US purchaser is going to pay $100 no matter what the *real* price would be, it's just a matter of how much goes to the US gov.

Every US purchaser could just set up a an offshore country and buy at the real price, then resale to it's *mother* company in the USA at $100, keeping the difference as a profit in the foreign subsidiary.

I can think of a zillion loopholes etc.

Not workable.

Fern
 

Brovane

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2001
5,341
1,516
136
Originally posted by: Fern
Originally posted by: Brovane
-snip-

Why the hell would any country sell us oil below $100?

The US purchaser is going to pay $100 no matter what the *real* price would be, it's just a matter of how much goes to the US gov.

Every US purchaser could just set up a an offshore country and buy at the real price, then resale to it's *mother* company in the USA at $100, keeping the difference as a profit in the foreign subsidiary.

I can think of a zillion loopholes etc.

Not workable.

Fern

Not if it is done correctly there isn't the loopholes. You use something like a VAT tax. For instance the US could say that if you produce oil in the US that the VAT tax is added before it transfers hands. It is just a matter of establishing the proper regulations and oversight.