sincerley agreed
and for those on a road of faith living as christians- public schools is a big downer
sincerley agreed
and for those on a road of faith living as christians- public schools is a big downer
Originally posted by: here4amission
sincerley agreed
and for those on a road of faith living as christians- public schools is a big downer
huh? the public schools are not anti-christian... if anything they're pro-christian. what with that pledge of allegiance and whatnot...
Chaotic42
Lifer
- Jun 15, 2001
- 34,822
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Well, the thing is that you don't have to say the pledge if you don't want to (not that we had to past the 6th grade anyway), or you can say it however you want.
You can take out "under God" and put whatever you want, if anything. As long as no one *forces* religion on any of the kids, I don't see the problem.
You bring up a point though. Everyone is too sensitive. The kids aren't going to get everything that they want, when and how they want it. Too bad for me I waited until I was 18 to learn that
You just have to cope in life, and do the best you can.
Originally posted by: gopunk
huh? the public schools are not anti-christian... if anything they're pro-christian. what with that pledge of allegiance and whatnot...Originally posted by: here4amissionsincerley agreed
Religious Private Schools are the way to go for good schooling and a good future.
Pledge of Allegiance makes schools anti-Atheist? lol, now I've heard everything.
Public schools sadly have become anti-Christian.
No one thing is the cause of all the problems in education, but here are some biggies IMHO:
* Single biggest problem with education? The NEA, who is more concerned with influencing social policy than educating.
* Personally, I think the tenure system is backwards. Give a new teacher "immunity" for a year or two (for them to get their bearings), THEN hold them accountable for their performance. Reward them with merit raises.
* CHEATING is at epidemic proportions, and no one seems to care.
* Namby-pamby discipline at schools, with no will (or way) to permanently weed out troublemaker kids.
* Many parents are refusing to PARENT their children, and just assuming that the school systems will "take care of it."
* Single biggest problem with education? The NEA, who is more concerned with influencing social policy than educating.
* Personally, I think the tenure system is backwards. Give a new teacher "immunity" for a year or two (for them to get their bearings), THEN hold them accountable for their performance. Reward them with merit raises.
* CHEATING is at epidemic proportions, and no one seems to care.
* Namby-pamby discipline at schools, with no will (or way) to permanently weed out troublemaker kids.
* Many parents are refusing to PARENT their children, and just assuming that the school systems will "take care of it."
Originally posted by: AZGamer
Originally posted by: gopunk
huh? the public schools are not anti-christian... if anything they're pro-christian. what with that pledge of allegiance and whatnot...Originally posted by: here4amissionsincerley agreed
Religious Private Schools are the way to go for good schooling and a good future.
Pledge of Allegiance makes schools anti-Atheist? lol, now I've heard everything.
Public schools sadly have become anti-Christian.
when did i say anything about anti-atheist? and the pledge of allegience does indicate pro-christianity, since it is not the real pledge of allegience, but the butchered one that was made to include a christian reference.
how are public schools anti-christian? a kid can wear a wwjd tshirt but anything satanic is not allowed (at least at my old school). you tell me how that's anti-christian.
Originally posted by: Chaotic42
Well, the thing is that you don't have to say the pledge if you don't want to (not that we had to past the 6th grade anyway), or you can say it however you want.
You can take out "under God" and put whatever you want, if anything. As long as no one *forces* religion on any of the kids, I don't see the problem.
You bring up a point though. Everyone is too sensitive. The kids aren't going to get everything that they want, when and how they want it. Too bad for me I waited until I was 18 to learn that
You just have to cope in life, and do the best you can.
i don't have to cope with that crap anymore, but i want to see to it that kids in the future don't have to go through the same nonsense that i did.
and when i was little, there was never an option to change the wording or not even say it. it was "okay kids, repeat after me", not "okay kids, repeat this optional wording after me". you shouldn't have to take out anything, the whole "under god" thing should not be there in the first place. if people want to say it, they are allowed to put it in, not the other way around. frankly, i think this is designed to give little kids the impression that god exists by referring to god as if one does.
of course, this is just a symptom of the larger stupidity that public schools entail... i was just giving that as an example of how public school ARE pro-christian. you can take issue with any part that you wish... but it's undeniable that this is a pro-christian system. replace the word god with allah, and we'll see how many people think it isn't pro-muslim.
oh please, do you really think that the usage here was anything but christian? i know that allah is the word for god, but i'm not naive enough to think that the word "god" was chosen to entail anything but the christian notion of god.
Chaotic42
Lifer
- Jun 15, 2001
- 34,822
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That's true, it was inserted in 1954 to make the USSR seem "godless", IIRC. It was intended to mean the Christian God. It does, however, have the side effect of covering every God, intended or not.
That said, I think that the separation of church and state only covers government mandated religion. Since this isn't mandated, the argument against "under god" being legal is baseless (and stupid).
it has the side effect of covering religious beliefs that happen to be monotheistic, but everybody knows it's christian.
frankly, i don't care whether or not it's legal, it shouldn't be there period. i guarantee you that the vast majority of pro-"under god" people would throw a hissy fit if we put "under allah" in there, even though allah is just another word for god. what does this tell you? it tells me that the purpose of it is nothing more than a device to influence the religious beliefs of children. otherwise why would it matter what we put in there? we could put "satan" in there and it wouldn't matter... clearly it does. so it's nothing short of flaming hypocracy when the pro-"under god" folks tell me how silly and trite my complaint is.
Chaotic42
Lifer
- Jun 15, 2001
- 34,822
- 2,001
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Well, I don't have the numbers infront of me, but I'd wager that the majority of people in America are either Christian, or "Christian-Tolerant" for lack of a better word. As shown by public reaction, people don't want to take it out.
Atheists will not convert to Christianity because of the "under God". I was a vehement atheist for years, so I speak from experience. If you don't want your child to be religious, two words are not going to foil your efforts.
Well, I don't have the numbers infront of me, but I'd wager that the majority of people in America are either Christian, or "Christian-Tolerant" for lack of a better word. As shown by public reaction, people don't want to take it out.
and i care.... why? i already know the vast majority of people are idiots, i don't need this to confirm it.
Atheists will not convert to Christianity because of the "under God". I was a vehement atheist for years, so I speak from experience. If you don't want your child to be religious, two words are not going to foil your efforts.
i agree. so lets replace the word god with satan. after all, two words aren't going to make children satanic...
but of course christians wouldn't like that. so is it any surprise that atheists don't? i mean, atheists are not even asking to replace it with anything, we are simply asking for the original, unbutchered version. so why is there such a strong uproar? this is hypocriscy pure and simple. it is trivial and unimportant, so why should it bother you if we change it?
i'll put it this way, in the simplest way i know how. the pro-"under god" people will be credible once they start practicing what they preach, and stop caring about this issue, since it is so trivial, like they assert. then, us silly atheists who will still care, can change it, and everybody will be happy. doesn't that sound reasonable?
and i care.... why? i already know the vast majority of people are idiots, i don't need this to confirm it.
Atheists will not convert to Christianity because of the "under God". I was a vehement atheist for years, so I speak from experience. If you don't want your child to be religious, two words are not going to foil your efforts.
i agree. so lets replace the word god with satan. after all, two words aren't going to make children satanic...
but of course christians wouldn't like that. so is it any surprise that atheists don't? i mean, atheists are not even asking to replace it with anything, we are simply asking for the original, unbutchered version. so why is there such a strong uproar? this is hypocriscy pure and simple. it is trivial and unimportant, so why should it bother you if we change it?
i'll put it this way, in the simplest way i know how. the pro-"under god" people will be credible once they start practicing what they preach, and stop caring about this issue, since it is so trivial, like they assert. then, us silly atheists who will still care, can change it, and everybody will be happy. doesn't that sound reasonable?
Red Dawn
Elite Member
- Jun 4, 2001
- 57,529
- 3
- 0
Adding the words "Under God" didn't make it any moire patriotic just like being a Christian doesn't make an American Patriotic.
Religion of any form or kind should only be taught in a class that is an elective that also teaches other mythologies and religions.
Originally posted by: gopunk
Originally posted by: AZGamer
Originally posted by: gopunk
huh? the public schools are not anti-christian... if anything they're pro-christian. what with that pledge of allegiance and whatnot...Originally posted by: here4amissionsincerley agreed
Religious Private Schools are the way to go for good schooling and a good future.
Pledge of Allegiance makes schools anti-Atheist? lol, now I've heard everything.
Public schools sadly have become anti-Christian.
when did i say anything about anti-atheist? and the pledge of allegience does indicate pro-christianity, since it is not the real pledge of allegience, but the butchered one that was made to include a christian reference.
how are public schools anti-christian? a kid can wear a wwjd tshirt but anything satanic is not allowed (at least at my old school). you tell me how that's anti-christian.
believe it or not here in mi it's the oppisite- i wore a shirt that had a logo of my church and said something like in god we trust on the back (it was a 9-11-01 kinda shirt) i was told that i had to either change the shirt, or take the penelty of suspension for a day :|
a kid a week later wore a shirt saying "satan buddy" w/ the pic of a devil on the back, school staff did see the shirt...nothing said.
and i wouldnt say there 100% anti-chirstian but they teach darwin's theory as fact now, like theres no other theory, i stude up once and told the teacher how creation has more scienctific backing then darwin's theory does she said "sit down and dont bring up the matter again we arent allowed to speak about creation because its based off a religon" uhm
so i darwin's therory "HUMANISIM"
(sorry about the grammer mistakes)
Yeah, that was the case in junior high and high school for me. Marilyn Manson shirts, chain jewelry, anti-religious shirts, "gang" clothing, etc were all banned but jesus shirts were perfectly fine. While I can totally understand not allowing clothing that is associated with drugs, alcohol, and tobacco, some jewelry like spiked bracers...I can't jutify them not allowing certain band shirts, clothing associated with gangs, pro-gun shirts (which were banned), and anti-religion shirts. Seriously, you can offend me with your WWJD shirt but I can't offend you with my God is Dead shirt?
Another things that irritated me was that students weren't allowed to have piercings, tattoos, and male students weren't allowed to have more than one ear piercing in each ear. WTF? Hell, the last year I was in high school they banned students from wearing sandals because they thought they were dangerous!
EDIT: Sorry for the grammer...I'm hungover and tired...just trying to get my point across
Originally posted by: here4amission
Originally posted by: gopunk
Originally posted by: AZGamer
Originally posted by: gopunk
huh? the public schools are not anti-christian... if anything they're pro-christian. what with that pledge of allegiance and whatnot...Originally posted by: here4amissionsincerley agreed
Religious Private Schools are the way to go for good schooling and a good future.
Pledge of Allegiance makes schools anti-Atheist? lol, now I've heard everything.
Public schools sadly have become anti-Christian.
when did i say anything about anti-atheist? and the pledge of allegience does indicate pro-christianity, since it is not the real pledge of allegience, but the butchered one that was made to include a christian reference.
how are public schools anti-christian? a kid can wear a wwjd tshirt but anything satanic is not allowed (at least at my old school). you tell me how that's anti-christian.
believe it or not here in mi it's the oppisite- i wore a shirt that had a logo of my church and said something like in god we trust on the back (it was a 9-11-01 kinda shirt) i was told that i had to either change the shirt, or take the penelty of suspension for a day :|
a kid a week later wore a shirt saying "satan buddy" w/ the pic of a devil on the back, school staff did see the shirt...nothing said.
and i wouldnt say there 100% anti-chirstian but they teach darwin's theory as fact now, like theres no other theory, i stude up once and told the teacher how creation has more scienctific backing then darwin's theory does she said "sit down and dont bring up the matter again we arent allowed to speak about creation because its based off a religon" uhm
so i darwin's therory "HUMANISIM"
(sorry about the grammer mistakes)
well i guess my school system just sucks then
btw, what other theories of evolution are there? creationism is not a theory of evolution... or are you one of those christians who take the bible literally (dinosaurs are a conspiracy....)
Chaotic42
Lifer
- Jun 15, 2001
- 34,822
- 2,001
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and i care.... why? i already know the vast majority of people are idiots, i don't need this to confirm it.
Being religious doesn't automatically make someone an idiot. Even if it did, are you saying that the masses shouldn't make their own decisions? Should only the people who aren't "idiots" make all of the decisions? That intellectual elite stuff is why I left Mensa.
i agree. so lets replace the word god with satan. after all, two words aren't going to make children satanic...
That's true. It doesn't bother me. Put Satan, Bob, or celery there. It's all the same to me. My child will know that I'm a Christian, and that he is free to make is own choises.
but of course christians wouldn't like that. so is it any surprise that atheists don't? i mean, atheists are not even asking to replace it with anything, we are simply asking for the original, unbutchered version. so why is there such a strong uproar? this is hypocriscy pure and simple. it is trivial and unimportant, so why should it bother you if we change it?
Is it hypocritical? Yes. Is it a stupid argument? Probably. There is such a strong uproar because atheists are outnumbered so heavily in America. Should we change it? If it was changed, it wouldn't matter to me. My whole point is that of all of the things that need to be fixed in our public schools, this is a petty, worthless thing to argue over.
Red: Adding the words "Under God" didn't make it any moire patriotic just like being a Christian doesn't make an American Patriotic. Religion of any form or kind should only be taught in a class that is an elective that also teaches other mythologies and religions
I agree. Adding the words was kind of pointless. It was a propaganda move. I also agree that religion shouldn't be taught in public school, except in mythology class.
Originally posted by: gopunk
Originally posted by: here4amission
Originally posted by: gopunk
Originally posted by: AZGamer
Originally posted by: gopunk
huh? the public schools are not anti-christian... if anything they're pro-christian. what with that pledge of allegiance and whatnot...Originally posted by: here4amissionsincerley agreed
Religious Private Schools are the way to go for good schooling and a good future.
Pledge of Allegiance makes schools anti-Atheist? lol, now I've heard everything.
Public schools sadly have become anti-Christian.
when did i say anything about anti-atheist? and the pledge of allegience does indicate pro-christianity, since it is not the real pledge of allegience, but the butchered one that was made to include a christian reference.
how are public schools anti-christian? a kid can wear a wwjd tshirt but anything satanic is not allowed (at least at my old school). you tell me how that's anti-christian.
believe it or not here in mi it's the oppisite- i wore a shirt that had a logo of my church and said something like in god we trust on the back (it was a 9-11-01 kinda shirt) i was told that i had to either change the shirt, or take the penelty of suspension for a day :|
a kid a week later wore a shirt saying "satan buddy" w/ the pic of a devil on the back, school staff did see the shirt...nothing said.
and i wouldnt say there 100% anti-chirstian but they teach darwin's theory as fact now, like theres no other theory, i stude up once and told the teacher how creation has more scienctific backing then darwin's theory does she said "sit down and dont bring up the matter again we arent allowed to speak about creation because its based off a religon" uhm
so i darwin's therory "HUMANISIM"
(sorry about the grammer mistakes)
well i guess my school system just sucks then
btw, what other theories of evolution are there? creationism is not a theory of evolution... or are you one of those christians who take the bible literally (dinosaurs are a conspiracy....)
nah i aint like that :-\ i think...but i do believe in creation,and if you were to look for theorys of how the world was made and humans...etc were made you would find many many diffent theorys, why teach only darwin's theory? teach em all if your gonna teach one, other wise dont teach the theory(s) at all....like they say about creationisim to us in the schools (another reason the dont "teach it") "you get enough info in outside school activites on creation..like caticisim and church." thats bull
Being religious doesn't automatically make someone an idiot. Even if it did, are you saying that the masses shouldn't make their own decisions? Should only the people who aren't "idiots" make all of the decisions? That intellectual elite stuff is why I left Mensa.
ah, you assume i meant "religious". no, i actually just meant people who disagree with me. (seriously)
and frankly, no... the idiot masses should not be allowed to make decisions that affect my life. would you want a mass of idiots making decisions in regards to your life?
at the very least, even if they weren't idiots, most people are way too biased for my good (just look at all the people against fixing the pledge). their bias serves their purposes, not mine, therefore i have no desire for decisions affecting me to be affected by their self-serving bias.
That's true. It doesn't bother me. Put Satan, Bob, or celery there. It's all the same to me. My child will know that I'm a Christian, and that he is free to make is own choises.
cool... wish other people were like you
Is it hypocritical? Yes. Is it a stupid argument? Probably. There is such a strong uproar because atheists are outnumbered so heavily in America. Should we change it? If it was changed, it wouldn't matter to me. My whole point is that of all of the things that need to be fixed in our public schools, this is a petty, worthless thing to argue over.
yup.
I agree. Adding the words was kind of pointless. It was a propaganda move. I also agree that religion shouldn't be taught in public school, except in mythology class.
you really think so? i dunno, i think there is a difference between mythology and current religions... i mean not very many people practice ancient greek god worship anymore...
ah, you assume i meant "religious". no, i actually just meant people who disagree with me.
(seriously)and frankly, no... the idiot masses should not be allowed to make decisions that affect my life. would you want a mass of idiots making decisions in regards to your life?
at the very least, even if they weren't idiots, most people are way too biased for my good (just look at all the people against fixing the pledge). their bias serves their purposes, not mine, therefore i have no desire for decisions affecting me to be affected by their self-serving bias.
That's true. It doesn't bother me. Put Satan, Bob, or celery there. It's all the same to me. My child will know that I'm a Christian, and that he is free to make is own choises.
cool... wish other people were like you
Is it hypocritical? Yes. Is it a stupid argument? Probably. There is such a strong uproar because atheists are outnumbered so heavily in America. Should we change it? If it was changed, it wouldn't matter to me. My whole point is that of all of the things that need to be fixed in our public schools, this is a petty, worthless thing to argue over.
yup.
I agree. Adding the words was kind of pointless. It was a propaganda move. I also agree that religion shouldn't be taught in public school, except in mythology class.
you really think so? i dunno, i think there is a difference between mythology and current religions... i mean not very many people practice ancient greek god worship anymore...
jlee
Lifer
- Sep 12, 2001
- 48,518
- 223
- 106
America was founded with a Christian background...I wonder if people are beginning to forget that..or don't want to accept it..or whatever.
If you say keeping "under God" makes the school pro-Christian, why is there little (if any) mention of Creationism? As someone posted above, it wasn't even open to discussion..go figure.
If you say keeping "under God" makes the school pro-Christian, why is there little (if any) mention of Creationism? As someone posted above, it wasn't even open to discussion..go figure.
Chaotic42
Lifer
- Jun 15, 2001
- 34,822
- 2,001
- 126
and frankly, no... the idiot masses should not be allowed to make decisions that affect my life. would you want a mass of idiots making decisions in regards to your life?
They already do. That's kind of what this thread is about. I have many gripes about the government, and having people tell my (future) children *what* to think and that they are *wrong* to think otherwise just boils my blood. I don't mind spirited debates between the students and faculty, but as long as it doesn't affect their future.
at the very least, even if they weren't idiots, most people are way too biased for my good (just look at all the people against fixing the pledge). their bias serves their purposes, not mine, therefore i have no desire for decisions affecting me to be affected by their self-serving bias.
Change must be made slowly by educating the masses. You have to people make their own decisions, while educating them to make informed ones. Just cutting off their power will leave you with ignorant, violent people.
you really think so? i dunno, i think there is a difference between mythology and current religions... i mean not very many people practice ancient greek god worship anymore...
Don't let Athena hear you say that...
I'd lump anything that has had a major impact on the world, and is based on faith in Gods or non-scientific faith into mythology.
edit: damned quoting
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