Opera is now free!

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: Nothinman

You don't have to pay $50 for Opera

I don't know what the cost was, but if you wanted rid of the ads you did have to pay for it.

This whole thread is about how Opera is being offered free of charge now. Freeware!=Open Source. That was then, this is now. That's not an argument now. I know I'll never convince you out of demanding everything be open source so I won't even try, or at least I'll make a final lost cause.

So because of FF being open source, what would be different if it were just freeware, closed source? Adblock could have been made with FF being closed souce, it just uses the Netscape XPI plugin interface (as far as I know). What else? What about those unpatched security holes? Why hasn't anyone fixed them? A million people can do it, right?

Originally posted by: Nothinman
And now that Opera is completely, monetarily, free what's the point in keeping the source closed?

Maybe they don't want their code ripped off and put in another product going for sale? Maybe they don't want hackers to find exploits in it?

I'm not even against open source. Any program I post on here (at least 2) I have given a link to source code of it (mostly so people don't think it's a virus). I'm just wondering why you demand everything to be open source, especially something this big. Mozilla is one of a kind. I don't know of any other major browser that is open source. In fact, what major programs are open source? Surely nothing that required a lot of R&D.

-Chances are you're not going to have the time to screw with the source code
-Consider the people who wrote the code. You think they want their masterpiece to be ripped off?
-If you consider the software situation now, they are nice for giving the compiled program for free in the first place.

 

[JustAnAverageGuy]

Originally posted by: Nothinman

You don't have to pay $50 for Opera

I don't know what the cost was, but if you wanted rid of the ads you did have to pay for it.

You don't now, so your arguement in moot.

It turns out more people try to fix their cars than the source code of their PC's web browser

And that makes it right to be able to hide the source from you? Just because you can't read it doesn't mean it can't be beneficial to you.

Sure, let me grab you a book about chinese medicine... written in chinese. You can't read it, but I'm sure it will be beneficial

</realizes that wasn't Nothinman's point>

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: Nothinman
And that makes it right to be able to hide the source from you? Just because you can't read it doesn't mean it can't be beneficial to you.

Sure I guess so. When you weigh the fact you're releasing all your ideas before your eyes and the few people that will actually use them morally/legally correct, it doesn't look so appealing releasing the source code. So if it makes perfect sense then why haven't they done it? I'm sure they have a reason. But don't look to me for an answer. I don't work at Opera. Contact them, show them your argument, and maybe they will make it open source.

 

[n0cmonkey]

Originally posted by: xtknight
Mozilla is one of a kind. I don't know of any other major browser that is open source.

Konqueror.

In fact, what major programs are open source? Surely nothing that required a lot of R&D.

• Darwin (the base of OS X).
• gcc (the compiler most *nixers without a ton of cash use)
• Linux
• Solaris
• OpenOffice

-Consider the people who wrote the code. You think they want their masterpiece to be ripped off?

If they chose the right license, it won't be. For varying definitions of "ripped off," of course.

-If you consider the software situation now, they are nice for giving the compiled program for free in the first place.

Not really, they discriminate against me.

 

[xtknight]

Oh, yeah, Linux of course, I don't know how I forgot that. But anyways...I don't know. Didn't Linux just start off as a spin-off as Unix? To be a huge program as open source, it had to begin that way IMO. Opera started off being shareware, so it's hard for it to be open source now. Since Linux started that way, everybody didn't mind their little bit of work.

Still if you choose the right license, people will violate the law. They do it everyday. A lawsuit is costly and to be suing everyone stealing your code, going through all that crap of proving it etc. is such a pain that they just don't release the code in the first place. Problem solved, with some unfortunate side effects.

 

[Nothinman]

So because of FF being open source, what would be different if it were just freeware, closed source?

Other than me not using it, I'm not sure. I'd probably be stuck either using the closed source version, like was true of Netscape years ago, or Konquerer or some other KHTML wrapper.

What else? What about those unpatched security holes? Why hasn't anyone fixed them? A million people can do it, right?

Did you even look in Bugzilla and read the discussion on the holes? A lot of the time fixing a hole isn't a simple 1 line change and can have huge repercussions. Hell, look at the whole IDN URL thing. They decided that they couldn't fix the problem without breaking the very features IDN was supposed to offer, so the fix was just to disable it by default. Other patches have caused worse problems, mainly extension incompatibilities.

Of the 3 bugs listed on Secunia's site:

1 can't really be fixed by Mozilla. It's just how cookies are handled, for an exploit to occur it would require that the site getting it's cookie stolen essentially give the cookie away by setting the domain attribute incorrectly.

1 requires the user to drag an image to the address bar, not exactly something people do all the time. It would take some pretty hefty social engineering to exploit that. And according to the Bugzilla links on Secunia's own site the fix for that was checked in to CVS in Feb.

And the last one might be more of a problem with the Apple Java plugin than FF itself, after reading some more of the bug report it also seems to be a problem with the QT plugin too so I think that one's Apple's problem.

 

[n0cmonkey]

Originally posted by: xtknight
Oh, yeah, Linux of course, I don't know how I forgot that. But anyways...I don't know. Didn't Linux just start off as a spin-off as Unix? To be a huge program as open source, it had to begin that way IMO. Opera started off being shareware, so it's hard for it to be open source now. Since Linux started that way, everybody didn't mind their little bit of work.

Linux started out as a fun project in Finland or something. More of a Minix clone than unix, IIRC.

Still if you choose the right license, people will violate the law. They do it everyday. A lawsuit is costly and to be suing everyone stealing your code, going through all that crap of proving it etc. is such a pain that they just don't release the code in the first place. Problem solved, with some unfortunate side effects.

That isn't a reason to do something. Companies have been screwing with the GPL for a while now, and many of them get caught and do the right thing before lawyers get involved.

I can get carjacked, but I drive it anyhow. :Q

 

[Nothinman]

Maybe they don't want their code ripped off and put in another product going for sale? Maybe they don't want hackers to find exploits in it?

They're not making any money off of the code, so they wouldn't be losing anything by letting others do so. And if they're that worried about hackers finding exploits in their source, I would be more afraid to run their software because that means they know it's crap and they're just too scared to admit it.

Sure, let me grab you a book about chinese medicine... written in chinese. You can't read it, but I'm sure it will be beneficial

It sure could be, if I ever meet someone that knows chinese =)

Didn't Linux just start off as a spin-off as Unix?

Sort-of, not really. But even if it was, so what? Unix is a huge system, implementing a new version completely from scratch is a huge undertaking. Especially for a college student to do in his free time.

To be a huge program as open source, it had to begin that way IMO

You do know that FF is a spin-off of Netscape which was very closed source not too many years ago, right? And now OpenSolaris is out, which was undoubtly closed source a year ago.

A lawsuit is costly and to be suing everyone stealing your code, going through all that crap of proving it etc. is such a pain that they just don't release the code in the first place

No. You just release the code under a license that lets people use it, there's no point in releasing the code under a license that doesn't allow people to reuse it. And there are NFP organizations like the FSF that will fight for you or at leaset help you if you have a valid case.

Problem solved, with some unfortunate side effects.

The problem isn't solved at all, MS and Valve can attest to the fact that you don't have to release code to have it stolen.

 

[AnitaPeterson]

Originally posted by: n0cmonkey
The Zaurus C3000 is frickin' cool. Best computer I could ever get that fits in my pocket.

Ummm... where did you find it for sale in North America, and how much did you pay for it?

 

[dukdukgoos]

I love Firefox, but this is great news. Firefox and Opera are worthy competitors who can now compete on more or less equal footing. It'll drive more innovation from both. IE7 is around the corner as well, and has some interesting features, but will still be a generation or two behind FF and Opera.

 

[kamper]

Originally posted by: Nothinman

I always had the impression that their target user base was the commercial sector, largely the same group that uses Delphi

That might have been it, but considering the extremely small number of Delphi apps that I see that doesn't seem very smart.

I think they had a good following among small companies that put out specialized desktop software. For instance, the company that I worked in Delphi at made software for the tracking and management of pollution in various forms. That's stuff that has a very specific target market, so you're not likely to see it everywhere. It's also much less popular in North America than other parts of the world.

It's also possible that you just don't recognize Delphi apps. Asus' temperature monitor is written in Delphi but I never would have noticed it if it didn't occasionally throw up an error dialogue with some internal details about an exception. SetiSpy is written in Delphi but I wouldn't have noticed it either if it hadn't shown it on the 'About' section.

I think what wasn't smart was assuming that this type of company would be happy to port their apps to linux.

 

[rh71]

Have either of the open-source sticklers in here written anything from scratch ? It seems like they would be most happy then... no need to piss on other companies' decisions...

 

[n0cmonkey]

Originally posted by: AnitaPeterson

Originally posted by: n0cmonkey
The Zaurus C3000 is frickin' cool. Best computer I could ever get that fits in my pocket.

Ummm... where did you find it for sale in North America, and how much did you pay for it?

You can get them from Dynamism (at least the C3100), or Chase and Company. I ordered mine from dynamism, but I ordered a part for it from C&C. It wasn't cheap.

 

[n0cmonkey]

Originally posted by: rh71
Have either of the open-source sticklers in here written anything from scratch ? It seems like they would be most happy then... no need to piss on other companies' decisions...

Yes.

It's opera's choice whether they open it or not, but until they choose to open it (so I can make it work on my computers) or port it to my computers my choice is not to use it. I'm fine with that.

 

[daniel49]

Originally posted by: screw3d
Stolen and repoxied from Hot Deals:

http://www.opera.com/

My main browser is and will still be Mozilla Firefox, but I see this move as a positive thing for the industry as a whole. :thumbsup: More competition = consumer wins!

At least the Firefox fanboys can shut up about not free = :thumbsdown: argument now

thx for moving it I don't visit hot deals very often

 

[Nothinman]

I think they had a good following among small companies that put out specialized desktop software.

Considering that most company desktops are running Windows, it's not too surprising that Kylix/Delphi for Linux didn't interest these people.

I think what wasn't smart was assuming that this type of company would be happy to port their apps to linux.

Right, it's a chicken and egg thing, once companies start putting Linux on their desktops they'll need/want something like Kylix. But we're not there yet.

 

[Hadsus]

Originally posted by: dukdukgoos
I love Firefox, but this is great news. Firefox and Opera are worthy competitors who can now compete on more or less equal footing. It'll drive more innovation from both. IE7 is around the corner as well, and has some interesting features, but will still be a generation or two behind FF and Opera.

Yup. FF pretty much stood by itself until Opera became free. I hated the little ad.....yes, it is small but I want every inch of browser window space available. And since all other browsers are free, welcome Opera to the real world. It's a nice browser.

 

[xtknight]

IE7? Screw IE7. Opera 8.5 free owns!

 

[Malak]

Originally posted by: dukdukgoos
I love Firefox, but this is great news. Firefox and Opera are worthy competitors who can now compete on more or less equal footing. It'll drive more innovation from both. IE7 is around the corner as well, and has some interesting features, but will still be a generation or two behind FF and Opera.

They are not equals. FF is a very very naked browser compared to Opera.