OpenBSD, NetBSD, or Linux for me?

ProviaFan

Lifer
Mar 17, 2001
14,993
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*** Warning *** Long post alert ***

Ok, let's get the necessary hardware specs and requirements out of the way first. I'm going to be rebuilding my server soon, so it will have a Gigabyte GA-7ZXE motherboard (KT133A chipset) with an 800MHz Duron and 640MB of PC/133 SDR SDRAM. A D-Link DFE-530TX+ (Realtek 8139 chipset NIC) and the basic assortment of hard drive, CD-ROM, and floppy will round out the mix. This is going to be for development, with Apache, PHP, MySQL, SSH, and maybe a few other things. Eventually, once I can get a decent external modem, it will probably be a router, too.

Anyway, I'll admit to being kind of deceptive by using a BSD vs. Linux subject line, when in reality I've pretty much made up my mind to go with BSD at this time (unless for some strange reason I can't get it to run Folding@Home via the Linux emulation, as that is another requirement for me). The only question that remains is which BSD to run. The main point of that subject was to grab the attention of all those folks who might be able to give me some advice on this topic. :Q

[rant] Linux has been my open source OS of choice for some time, but I've never really appreciated how much crap almost all distros (except LFS, but that's not exactly a distro, and it's not really low maintenance, either) install with by default. Even Debian's default install just seems to me to be installing stuff that it shouldn't need to be installing. Yes, I know there are probably ways to unselect the extra bloat, but I don't really feel like bothering with that again. Also, the unstandard folder tree and almost totally incompatible package management systems aren't the greatest. [/rant]

Aside from all that which I've vented above, I just have this desire to try something new, different, exciting, and unusual (well, BSD may not be the last any more). So now that I've covered why I'd rather not do Linux on my "new" server, I'll get on to my BSD questions.

OpenBSD has a reputation of being very secure in the default install. However, that may not be much of an advantage at this time, because the security of whatever is installed in the end will possibly be compromised by my installation of a webserver, database server, et. al. OpenBSD also supposedly is kind of spartan, but that wouldn?t necessarily be a disadvantage for me. It appears to have some very cool technologies, but my intentions of running this on an i386 platform, along with my utter lack of knowledge about how to utilize such things as those spoken of in said link kind of negate that advantage.

And then there is NetBSD. Well, it does seem to have a good reputation for having clean code, which supposedly makes it very stable (that is A Good Thing ?). However, any stability advantage that it might have over OpenBSD would probably not be noticeable to me, since living in rural Indiana means that power outages are not an unknown occurrence, and the chances of my server staying up long enough to hit any limitations of either OS in regards to stability are virtually nil.

At this point, I don?t have much more to say, except that I?m open to suggestions on either. Some little corner of my instinct tells me that this is probably going to turn into a big argument with n0c telling me to use OpenBSD, and BBWF telling me to use NetBSD, but maybe I?ll learn something useful or interesting in the process. ;)

Anyway, I?m posting this under the influence of tiredness, and I need to get some rest, so I?ll check back in the morning and see if there are any new developments. Goodnight.
 

ProviaFan

Lifer
Mar 17, 2001
14,993
1
0
Originally posted by: skyking
Praytell, why was freeBSD excluded from your list???:D
Uh, maybe because I was getting tired and didn't feel like adding a paragraph about it? ;)

I'm open to the possibility of using FreeBSD, too. Right now I'm just taking my time to decide, with the hope that my decision will be an informed and good one. :)
 

skyking

Lifer
Nov 21, 2001
22,775
5,937
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I honestly have not tried the other distros, but freeBSD has worked well for me on my servers.
 

RSMemphis

Golden Member
Oct 6, 2001
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Ok, here we go:

Don't use NetBSD. It's mainly there to run on as many platforms as possible, but it is not extremely optimized to i386.
OpenBSD is probably the most secure OS out there right now.
FreeBSD is definitely the server software that can squeeze the most out of your hardware. It never ceases to amaze me what projects you can run on a crappy machine. Your system looks like it can kick a$$ with FreeBSD.
Linux is very good if you need to run exotic hardware (although FreeBSD supports a lot of stuff), or if you run a lot of things that exist only as linux binaries. FreeBSD can run Linux binaries, and is sometimes even faster at it than Linux, but in the end - if you run linux binaries, might as well run linux.

BTB, unless you are dead set on MySQL, PostgreSQL has been catching up lately in the speed department.
 

ProviaFan

Lifer
Mar 17, 2001
14,993
1
0
Originally posted by: RSMemphis
Ok, here we go:

Don't use NetBSD. It's mainly there to run on as many platforms as possible, but it is not extremely optimized to i386.
OpenBSD is probably the most secure OS out there right now.
FreeBSD is definitely the server software that can squeeze the most out of your hardware. It never ceases to amaze me what projects you can run on a crappy machine. Your system looks like it can kick a$$ with FreeBSD.
Linux is very good if you need to run exotic hardware (although FreeBSD supports a lot of stuff), or if you run a lot of things that exist only as linux binaries. FreeBSD can run Linux binaries, and is sometimes even faster at it than Linux, but in the end - if you run linux binaries, might as well run linux.

BTB, unless you are dead set on MySQL, PostgreSQL has been catching up lately in the speed department.
  1. Ok, OpenBSD or FreeBSD it is. Now I just have to choose between those two. :)
  2. I might end up running Linux if I have to, but I want to make some serious effort to try out some kind of BSD first.
  3. I'm not dead set on any particular database server. The only problem is that I don't really know how to access any database server through PHP, and the book I'm using specifically covers MySQL (PHP and MySQL Web Development).
Anyway, thanks for the suggestions, guys.
 

n0cmonkey

Elite Member
Jun 10, 2001
42,936
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Originally posted by: jliechty

OpenBSD has a reputation of being very secure in the default install. However, that may not be much of an advantage at this time, because the security of whatever is installed in the end will possibly be compromised by my installation of a webserver, database server, et. al. OpenBSD also supposedly is kind of spartan, but that wouldn?t necessarily be a disadvantage for me. It appears to have some very cool technologies, but my intentions of running this on an i386 platform, along with my utter lack of knowledge about how to utilize such things as those spoken of in said link kind of negate that advantage.

OpenBSD comes with Apache installed by default. You dont have to impliment the stuff in the email you linked to, its already there for you (mostly on mature platforms instead of x86 crap) in -current and the snapshots.

Use NetBSD. Its probably the smallest, has some neat features (although, not all of the neat features OpenBSD has). Their init system is funky and not as pure as OpenBSD's, but it doesnt sound entirely bad. You lose some of the nifty gee wiz stuff the OpenBSD guys are doing (thats my one reason for not trying NetBSD as of yet), but you get one of the cleanest systems out there.

As far as FreeBSD, why bother? 5.0 is definitely a .0 I wouldnt trust yet. Its too new. The revolution has ended and now the developers are just trying to clean up their own crap. Wait until 5.1. And 4.?? Its old and, in my very biased anti-FreeBSD/anti-Linux opinion, not worth the time or effort. Someone should fork 2.8 and make FreeBSD worth using again.
 

Poontos

Platinum Member
Mar 9, 2000
2,799
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Originally posted by: n0cmonkey
Originally posted by: jliechty

OpenBSD has a reputation of being very secure in the default install. However, that may not be much of an advantage at this time, because the security of whatever is installed in the end will possibly be compromised by my installation of a webserver, database server, et. al. OpenBSD also supposedly is kind of spartan, but that wouldn?t necessarily be a disadvantage for me. It appears to have some very cool technologies, but my intentions of running this on an i386 platform, along with my utter lack of knowledge about how to utilize such things as those spoken of in said link kind of negate that advantage.

OpenBSD comes with Apache installed by default. You dont have to impliment the stuff in the email you linked to, its already there for you (mostly on mature platforms instead of x86 crap) in -current and the snapshots.

Use NetBSD. Its probably the smallest, has some neat features (although, not all of the neat features OpenBSD has). Their init system is funky and not as pure as OpenBSD's, but it doesnt sound entirely bad. You lose some of the nifty gee wiz stuff the OpenBSD guys are doing (thats my one reason for not trying NetBSD as of yet), but you get one of the cleanest systems out there.

As far as FreeBSD, why bother? 5.0 is definitely a .0 I wouldnt trust yet. Its too new. The revolution has ended and now the developers are just trying to clean up their own crap. Wait until 5.1. And 4.?? Its old and, in my very biased anti-FreeBSD/anti-Linux opinion, not worth the time or effort. Someone should fork 2.8 and make FreeBSD worth using again.
n0c,

A) When is the last time you used FreeBSD?
B) When is the last time you installed FreeBSD?
C) ANY FRICKIN .0 of an OS is not going to be 100% production material, but for a .0 version, it's rock solid.
D) This is why there is 4.7 Release, which is ROCK solid, secure, reliable, etc.
E) The Ports system in FreeBSD is one of the best overall in the industry.
F) It is more widely deployed than most BSD's for a reason.

Anyway, I have to go to go, I will continue later.


 

n0cmonkey

Elite Member
Jun 10, 2001
42,936
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I want to preface my answers with the fact that I admit to being biased against FreeBSD and that these are only my opinions. Would I use FreeBSD in a production environment? Yes. Would I use something else if I could? Yes. Just opinions.

Originally posted by: Poontos
n0c,

A) When is the last time you used FreeBSD?

4.4R

B) When is the last time you installed FreeBSD?

4.4R

C) ANY FRICKIN .0 of an OS is not going to be 100% production material, but for a .0 version, it's rock solid.

I agree with the first part with one exception, OpenBSD. 3.0 was the release that came after 2.9, not after 2.7. Its a different numbering scheme. :p

D) This is why there is 4.7 Release, which is ROCK solid, secure, reliable, etc.

You like it? Great, use it. My opinions should not stop anyone from using it or trying it in any way. He asked for opinions, I gave them.

E) The Ports system in FreeBSD is the best overall in the industry.

That is what I am told. I also hear NetBSD has a great ports system.

F) It is more widely deployed than most BSD's for a reason.

First to market? ;)

Other than Yahoo! and smaller personal sites and whatnot, where is it really deployed?

 

Nothinman

Elite Member
Sep 14, 2001
30,672
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Also after using Debian's package management I can't stand the ports system, Debian just makes most things so easy for me. If I had to use a BSD I'd probably use FreeBSD for a workstation just because it's got the larger userbase on the workstation side
 

ProviaFan

Lifer
Mar 17, 2001
14,993
1
0
Thank you all for your suggestions. :)

At this time, my plan is to try NetBSD first, and spend a week or so with it to see how I like it. If it doesn't work well for me, I will try the other two BSDs.

And I'm sorry, but I didn't intend to start any flame wars. It is my fault, because I should have been aware that some people seem to treat the matter of the OS that runs upon their systems as something to be defended with a zeal almost to the level of that held by some religious fanatics. ;)
 

n0cmonkey

Elite Member
Jun 10, 2001
42,936
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Originally posted by: jliechty
Thank you all for your suggestions. :)

At this time, my plan is to try NetBSD first, and spend a week or so with it to see how I like it. If it doesn't work well for me, I will try the other two BSDs.

Using them all is the best way to figure out which one you like the best. Trying them out for a short period of time is another good way ;)

And I'm sorry, but I didn't intend to start any flame wars. It is my fault, because I should have been aware that some people seem to treat the matter of the OS that runs upon their systems as something to be defended with a zeal almost to the level of that held by some religious fanatics. ;)

I dont think there was any flamage going on. Just opinions stated with enthusiasm. ;)
 

lowtech1

Diamond Member
Mar 9, 2000
4,644
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If you have the time & have enough hdd/s volume, then break it up to multi partitions & install them all.
 

n0cmonkey

Elite Member
Jun 10, 2001
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Originally posted by: lowtech
If you have the time & have enough hdd/s volume, then break it up to multi partitions & install them all.

Buy three hard drives and you can do this fine, especially when you put them in 3 different computers ;)

Forget dualboot, buy more computers. Raise your DC stats :D
 

Poontos

Platinum Member
Mar 9, 2000
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(I had replied, but my browser lost what I had typed when I hit back)
Anyway, I don't have time for this jibber jabber. As for deployment, have a peak here. http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/today/top.avg.html
Gee, those are a lot of "small personal sites" and "whatnot" that are running FreeBSD. Afterall, in my "opinion", Netcraft is strictly lists personal sites and whatnot, oh, and Yahoo!.
 

n0cmonkey

Elite Member
Jun 10, 2001
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Originally posted by: Poontos
(I had replied, but my browser lost what I had typed when I hit back)
Anyway, I don't have time for this jibber jabber. As for deployment, have a peak here. http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/today/top.avg.html
Gee, those are a lot of "small personal sites" and "whatnot" that are running FreeBSD. Afterall, in my "opinion", Netcraft is strictly lists personal sites and whatnot, oh, and Yahoo!.

Thank you for the "polite" reply. I forgot how much Japan likes FreeBSD.
 

Nothinman

Elite Member
Sep 14, 2001
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Also realize that Linux uses an unsigned int in 2.4 and below for keeping track of the uptimg, so after ~400 says it resets back to 0, doesn't really break anything except bragging rights.
 

lowtech1

Diamond Member
Mar 9, 2000
4,644
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It is hard to belive that they have one Windows 2000/IIS 5, that has been up for 996 days (2.8 years) while Windows 2000 only has been release for 1062 days ( 3 years - 4 days).

Some how I feel that if not all, then most of the servers that have such a long uptime are running somekind of load balancing.
 

Sunner

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
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Originally posted by: lowtech
It is hard to belive that they have one Windows 2000/IIS 5, that has been up for 996 days (2.8 years) while Windows 2000 only has been release for 1062 days ( 3 years - 4 days).

Some how I feel that if not all, then most of the servers that have such a long uptime are running somekind of load balancing.

I belive load balancers will show up in the graphs, or screw them up :)

Anyway, some servers just never give up, just noticed today while at work that one of our servers has an uptime of ~800 days, it's an old Sun Enterprise 250 running Solaris 7.
It's been up since we moved into our new office in fact, and it's seen some pretty high loads, in fact come to think of it, the highest load avarge I've ever seen(that wasn't due to hardware problems and other such anomalies that is), hovering around 20-25 when a bunch of processes went berserk.
 

Barnaby W. Füi

Elite Member
Aug 14, 2001
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Don't use NetBSD. It's mainly there to run on as many platforms as possible, but it is not extremely optimized to i386.
That's BS. Any performance it may lose with portable code should never be noticeable, I've never seen benchmarks of it doing heavy load stuff though, so I can't say anything about that. NASA uses it :) From my little usage of FreeBSD it seemed fairly messy, with hit and miss docs, while NetBSD is for the most part very simple and easy to understand (as long as you are willing/able to read, of course).

Your system looks like it can kick a$$ with FreeBSD.
I doubt there would be any noticeable difference between any of the BSDs performance wise..

That is what I am told. I also hear NetBSD has a great ports system.
Yeah, pkgsrc is even portable! People use it on Redhat boxen and whatnot, pretty neat ;) (And I've *NEVER* had a package not compile, and the only package I've had minor trouble setting up was MySQL, but the MySQL package's "issues" have been cleared up now)

It is more widely deployed than most BSD's for a reason.
Yeah, and AOL is deployed more widely because....? Windows? IE? MSN? Redhat? Linux in general? Popularity is only a good argument to someone who never questions the status quo, and I sure as hell am not that :) Try everything and find what you like, instead of letting other people form opinions for you.
 

n0cmonkey

Elite Member
Jun 10, 2001
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Originally posted by: BingBongWongFooey
Don't use NetBSD. It's mainly there to run on as many platforms as possible, but it is not extremely optimized to i386.
That's BS. Any performance it may lose with portable code should never be noticeable, I've never seen benchmarks of it doing heavy load stuff though, so I can't say anything about that. NASA uses it :) From my little usage of FreeBSD it seemed fairly messy, with hit and miss docs, while NetBSD is for the most part very simple and easy to understand (as long as you are willing/able to read, of course).

NASA uses OpenBSD too. In fact they wrote a paper about it :D
 

Bremen

Senior member
Mar 22, 2001
658
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Originally posted by: n0cmonkey
Originally posted by: BingBongWongFooey
Don't use NetBSD. It's mainly there to run on as many platforms as possible, but it is not extremely optimized to i386.
That's BS. Any performance it may lose with portable code should never be noticeable, I've never seen benchmarks of it doing heavy load stuff though, so I can't say anything about that. NASA uses it :) From my little usage of FreeBSD it seemed fairly messy, with hit and miss docs, while NetBSD is for the most part very simple and easy to understand (as long as you are willing/able to read, of course).

NASA uses OpenBSD too. In fact they wrote a paper about it :D

Yes, and NASA also uses hardware so old that they have to special order every part, not to mention my wristwatch is more powerful at 0.01% the price :0)
 

n0cmonkey

Elite Member
Jun 10, 2001
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Originally posted by: Bremen
Originally posted by: n0cmonkey
Originally posted by: BingBongWongFooey
Don't use NetBSD. It's mainly there to run on as many platforms as possible, but it is not extremely optimized to i386.
That's BS. Any performance it may lose with portable code should never be noticeable, I've never seen benchmarks of it doing heavy load stuff though, so I can't say anything about that. NASA uses it :) From my little usage of FreeBSD it seemed fairly messy, with hit and miss docs, while NetBSD is for the most part very simple and easy to understand (as long as you are willing/able to read, of course).

NASA uses OpenBSD too. In fact they wrote a paper about it :D

Yes, and NASA also uses hardware so old that they have to special order every part, not to mention my wristwatch is more powerful at 0.01% the price :0)

Exactly! They use technology they *know* works! ;)