Open Wireless Network Community

[Placer14]

I'm thinking of starting a open wireless network community in my area cleverly named your OWN Community.

Esentially, WAP (Wireless Access Points) are distributed to homes throughout my area. Bother people with and without broadband connection would be welcome in the community. You would connect a WAP device to your own network which will act as a node within the network which will repeat, broadcast, provide and use any wireless connectivity in the area (as well as your own if you have any).

You would need a custom WAP device installed and those without internet connection woudl pay a small amount (CONSIDERABLY LESS than what any ISP would charge) to have this WAP in their home. This WAP will provide them with a broadband connection (at least 128kbps both directions) and serve as a repeater and hub for other points on the network. Those with a broadband connection will house this WAP inside their network and provide any unused bandwidth to other WAPs in their area and in turn be paid from other members to use the bandwdith.

Obviously this is like starting an ISP and i'd need to be provide support, warranty for equipment, blah blah blah....difference is this would be a volunteer based network that the community would provide assistance with setting up and installing their local users. User would have to be responsible for all charges, etc etc... I'm thinking of service for around $5-10/mo for 128kbps up and down. Very doable and very reasonable (especially for areas that can't get/afford broadband.)

What do you guys think? I'm a brainstorming madman over here. Would you want to be involved something like thisin your area? If not, why? Money? Your ISP is sufficent? Not interested in sharing bandwidth?

(*thinks this could be a large portion of the next internet one day. )

 

[rgwalt]

One problem is that ISP's typically stipulate that you aren't allowed to pack computers behind a firewall. You couldn't use a residential cable or DSL connection to support more than one house without going against the terms of your ISP agreement. Also, you are talking about putting wireless repeaters and/or basestations in everyone's house. What happens if someone doesn't want to participate, and therefore breaks the chain? It might be tough to get your coverage mapped out.

On the other hand, I think it is a great idea. Instead of running this as a business, you could run it as a co-op between a group of people. You would all pool your money and split the broadband costs evenly. You could all buy your own equipment, or you could have a pool of equipment money, and the co-op would own the equipment. When someone leaves, the equipment goes back to the co-op. When someone joins, they receive equipment from the pool. You would have to charge an entrance fee into the co-op to support the equipment budget.

If you decide to pursue something like this, approach it from a co-op standpoint instead of a business model due to the money/taxes involved. Look into the cost of getting business lines run (business cable, DSL, or larger pipes) and look into what kind of gear you would need. If you are talking about something on a neighborhood scale, look into D-Link gear. They provide complete networking solutions between wireless routers, repeaters, bridges, and wireless cards.

Ryan

 

[rgwalt]

Also, if you decide to approach this from the stand-point of a co-op, you could include a monthly income for the person or persons that are managing the co-op. Depending on the number of people you could include an extra $100 or $200 for the people that do the actual work of keeping the network and equipment up and running.

Ryan

 

[Fritzo]

They have no way of knowing if you have multiple computers! Hell, I got the fastest SBC DSL connection I could get, put a 20' parabolic antenna in by back yard, and am charging 5 neighbors $15.95/month for Internet access

Did anyone say pics?

Antenna behind my shed

I've been doing this for over a year now, proving:

1) I'm a great engineer (I made the antenna tower out of alluminum tubing and pipe couplers...it withstood 70mph winds last January )
2) Broadband providers can't tell if you're using NAT or not.

Sorry for the dark pic...it was about to rain that day. Don't try this at home, I'm a trained professional

 

[FoBoT]

Originally posted by: Placer14
What do you guys think?

sounds like a security nightmare

are you going to buy liability insurance so that when somebody cracks somebodies windows 98 PC and steals their CC #'s and racks up $20,000 in p0rn charges they won't sue you?

 

[Placer14]

Fritzo, we might be talking. As far as breaking the link when someone drops their network, i'm looking at custom firmware for a few devices that will support multipoint access and draw on whatever points are availible. It's a different type of protocol completly (which is nice so the information can't be sniffed my conventional means. So if you have a hex shaped network with a node at each corner and one int he center, the center point could draw on bandwidth from all the surrounding nodes. Crazy bandwidth.

Also, good idea about the Co-op business model. The way I think i'l structure the internal side of the company is have a regional managers/techs to handle support for customers in their free time and make sure I find ISP that will allow at least 2 nodes behind their device. The person's computer where it's housed and our WAP. The ISP won't be able to see past the WAP cause of the proprietary protocol so for all they know it's just for the laptop.

 

[MistaTastyCakes]

I'd think with 128 or 256 bit encryption that wireless networks offer now, security wouldn't be a huge issue along with firewalls and such against outside problems.

I don't see how you could keep the network secure w/o a main server or something to set access permissions, but then again, I'm not an expert on the subject.

 

[AnimeKnight]

Originally posted by: MistaTastyCakes
I'd think with 128 or 256 bit encryption that wireless networks offer now, security wouldn't be a huge issue along with firewalls and such against outside problems.

I don't see how you could keep the network secure w/o a main server or something to set access permissions, but then again, I'm not an expert on the subject.

That's security against outside world.. what about security against inside??? packet sniffing???

 

[MercenaryForHire]

Originally posted by: MistaTastyCakes
I'd think with 128 or 256 bit encryption that wireless networks offer now, security wouldn't be a huge issue along with firewalls and such against outside problems.

LMFAO!

Give me three hours with a laptop and NetStumbler, and I'll 0wn your security. 256-bit encrypted means nothing if the IV (Initialization Vector) is still only 24 bits of that.

- M4H

 

[Placer14]

Well I imagine that this would be as secure as most ISPs. Major ISPs require you provide your own internal protection as they provide minimal security for their users. Am i wrong?

 

[FoBoT]

Originally posted by: Placer14
Well I imagine that this would be as secure as most ISPs. Major ISPs require you provide your own internal protection as they provide minimal security for their users. Am i wrong?

except all your customers are on the inside , you think everybody will actually run their own firewalls?

 

[Fritzo]

Yeah, Wifi is not secure. The networks I put to gether that needed to be secure use radius authentication and client software to allow you access. Otherwise, jerks will come by all the time trying to hack you. That's why I went with a parabolic antenna...17 degree broadcast area means I can aim the signal where I want It goes nearly a mile in the direction it's pointed, but only 30'-50' bleed off outside the broadcast area.

 

[Ameesh]

to put it mildly i think its a terrible idea. I'm sure many of my reasons will show up in this thread as well as the ones that have already been enumerated.

 

[Ameesh]

Originally posted by: Fritzo
Yeah, Wifi is not secure. The networks I put to gether that needed to be secure use radius authentication and client software to allow you access. Otherwise, jerks will come by all the time trying to hack you. That's why I went with a parabolic antenna...17 degree broadcast area means I can aim the signal where I want It goes nearly a mile in the direction it's pointed, but only 30'-50' bleed off outside the broadcast area.

what kind of encryption do you use?

 

[Placer14]

Originally posted by: MercenaryForHire

Originally posted by: MistaTastyCakes
I'd think with 128 or 256 bit encryption that wireless networks offer now, security wouldn't be a huge issue along with firewalls and such against outside problems.

LMFAO!

Give me three hours with a laptop and NetStumbler, and I'll 0wn your security. 256-bit encrypted means nothing if the IV (Initialization Vector) is still only 24 bits of that.

- M4H

Most people don't know about that....RC4 isn't perfect and with enoguh packets from the datastream, that "128bit" encryption can be broken using a passive packet sniffer. But i'm sure there are other more secure protocol that can be implemented. Proprietary protocol shouldn't be an issue here because the network is in a controled environment and I'll be implementing the hardware that'd be used.

 

[Ameesh]

Originally posted by: Placer14

Originally posted by: MercenaryForHire

Originally posted by: MistaTastyCakes
I'd think with 128 or 256 bit encryption that wireless networks offer now, security wouldn't be a huge issue along with firewalls and such against outside problems.

LMFAO!

Give me three hours with a laptop and NetStumbler, and I'll 0wn your security. 256-bit encrypted means nothing if the IV (Initialization Vector) is still only 24 bits of that.

- M4H

Most people don't know about that....RC4 isn't perfect and with enoguh packets from the datastream, that "128bit" encryption can be broken using a passive packet sniffer. But i'm sure there are other more secure protocol that can be implemented. Proprietary protocol shouldn't be an issue here because the network is in a controled environment and I'll be implementing the hardware that'd be used.

careful now , when you use propietary protocols people might mistake you for the "man".

 

[Placer14]

No matter...the whole deal is on a volunteer basis...the use of the proprietary protocol would be as much for security from random sniffers as it would be for the man trying to keep a tab on you. And if ther person doesn't like the idea of a shared wireless network boosting their connection, they don't have to opt-in.

 

[MercenaryForHire]

Originally posted by: Placer14

Originally posted by: MercenaryForHire

Originally posted by: MistaTastyCakes
I'd think with 128 or 256 bit encryption that wireless networks offer now, security wouldn't be a huge issue along with firewalls and such against outside problems.

LMFAO!

Give me three hours with a laptop and NetStumbler, and I'll 0wn your security. 256-bit encrypted means nothing if the IV (Initialization Vector) is still only 24 bits of that.

- M4H

Most people don't know about that....RC4 isn't perfect and with enoguh packets from the datastream, that "128bit" encryption can be broken using a passive packet sniffer. But i'm sure there are other more secure protocol that can be implemented. Proprietary protocol shouldn't be an issue here because the network is in a controled environment and I'll be implementing the hardware that'd be used.

Just be aware that your neighbourhood will attract every wardriver in the area.

- M4H

 

[Fritzo]

Originally posted by: Ameesh

Originally posted by: Fritzo
Yeah, Wifi is not secure. The networks I put to gether that needed to be secure use radius authentication and client software to allow you access. Otherwise, jerks will come by all the time trying to hack you. That's why I went with a parabolic antenna...17 degree broadcast area means I can aim the signal where I want It goes nearly a mile in the direction it's pointed, but only 30'-50' bleed off outside the broadcast area.

what kind of encryption do you use?

I only use 64 bit to keep out casual war drivers and increase throughput. DHCP is not used and non standard private IP's are used. You can't get access to the network without authenticating with a radius account either. Works pretty well and it's the only way I know of to make Wifi secure enough for corporate use.

 

[Atvar]

This should interest you

 

[rgwalt]

Originally posted by: Fritzo
They have no way of knowing if you have multiple computers! Hell, I got the fastest SBC DSL connection I could get, put a 20' parabolic antenna in by back yard, and am charging 5 neighbors $15.95/month for Internet access

Did anyone say pics?

Antenna behind my shed

I've been doing this for over a year now, proving:

1) I'm a great engineer (I made the antenna tower out of alluminum tubing and pipe couplers...it withstood 70mph winds last January )
2) Broadband providers can't tell if you're using NAT or not.

Sorry for the dark pic...it was about to rain that day. Don't try this at home, I'm a trained professional

While this is working out great for you, if you actually go public with a business, your broadband company will find out and will shut you down and blacklist you for violating their terms of service. They don't want to miss out on billing you for business-grade internet service. On top of that they are losing out on potentially 5 residential accounts. The Ferengi in all of us wants to set up a business like this and make money, but the broadband companies really don't like it. If I had some neighbors that were interested, I would share my connection and split the bill. I just wanted to warn of the possible consequences.

Ryan

 

[MercenaryForHire]

Originally posted by: Fritzo

Originally posted by: Ameesh

Originally posted by: Fritzo
Yeah, Wifi is not secure. The networks I put to gether that needed to be secure use radius authentication and client software to allow you access. Otherwise, jerks will come by all the time trying to hack you. That's why I went with a parabolic antenna...17 degree broadcast area means I can aim the signal where I want It goes nearly a mile in the direction it's pointed, but only 30'-50' bleed off outside the broadcast area.

what kind of encryption do you use?

I only use 64 bit to keep out casual war drivers and increase throughput. DHCP is not used and non standard private IP's are used. You can't get access to the network without authenticating with a radius account either. Works pretty well and it's the only way I know of to make Wifi secure enough for corporate use.

::thumbsup:: to you for one of the few "secure" Wifi implementations!

- M4H

 

[LeeTJ]

Has the 802.16 been mentioned yet?? supposed to have a range of 31 miles and like 70 MB/S bandwidth?

 

[Soybomb]

I don't like it really. I'm completely in support of good hearted people setting up open access points and sharing the bandwidth out ala BAWUG, NYC Wireless, Seattle Wireless, etc. It sounds to me like you want to buy a residential broadband account and share it out with your neighbors, charging them a fee to access it. This goes past a convience feature to what I would call theft. The terms of service from your isp most assuredly forbid you from reselling the service. I would look at it as me ordering a cable tv package and then splitting it out from my house to all of my neighbors and charging them for it.

If you want to do this you need to order some bandwidth that you can resell, but you're going to pay more for it. And no I don't think this will be a big thing because I think in most places there isn't anyone qualified enough to run an ISP, if there is they're not going to have time, and they're probably not going to do it for free. I think people may create their own hotspots, but now what you're talking about. Also the way residential broadband is priced won't work if everyone does this. Your may think you're scamming your ISP but they still have to pay quite a chunk for the backbone connection. If they don't make in the money for the bandwidth is consumed (remember home broadband is sold thinking you're not going to be using it all the time and that it will be very bursty traffic), you won't be seeing an upgrade to it. If you do run it off a personal account in your name I think I would seek legal counsel to see what you might need when someone downloads child porn, sends a death threat to the president, and defaces the nasa homepage when they get bored one night.

A true co-op is a possibility if you can gather enough support and buy a circuit appropriate for your intentions. Just be warned that this is still going to be alot of work to setup, keep running, troubleshoot, etc. The person in charge will assuredly be harassed all the time when people have email problems, or windows 95 networking has died, zone alarm has stopped, their dog chewed on the cat5, etc. Its really enough for a full time job I think.

 

[necro702]

Originally posted by: rgwalt

Originally posted by: Fritzo
They have no way of knowing if you have multiple computers! Hell, I got the fastest SBC DSL connection I could get, put a 20' parabolic antenna in by back yard, and am charging 5 neighbors $15.95/month for Internet access

Did anyone say pics?

Antenna behind my shed

I've been doing this for over a year now, proving:

1) I'm a great engineer (I made the antenna tower out of alluminum tubing and pipe couplers...it withstood 70mph winds last January )
2) Broadband providers can't tell if you're using NAT or not.

Sorry for the dark pic...it was about to rain that day. Don't try this at home, I'm a trained professional

While this is working out great for you, if you actually go public with a business, your broadband company will find out and will shut you down and blacklist you for violating their terms of service. They don't want to miss out on billing you for business-grade internet service. On top of that they are losing out on potentially 5 residential accounts. The Ferengi in all of us wants to set up a business like this and make money, but the broadband companies really don't like it. If I had some neighbors that were interested, I would share my connection and split the bill. I just wanted to warn of the possible consequences.

Ryan

His wife is a cop. He knows the consequences I think.