Open warfare between Intel & nVidia

[ShawnD1]

I don't know how anyone can agree with Intel on this. Their current platform sucks balls and people are still defending it for some reason.

Anandtech reviews the Ion platform

It?s worth mentioning that the Ion machine rarely jumped up that high in CPU utilization, but it definitely did at a few points while playing Casino Royale. A standard Atom platform with the 945G chipset couldn?t even attempt to play a Blu-ray movie. While there may be some cause for concern that Atom, even paired with the 9400M, won?t always be enough to watch Blu-ray movies on it?s too early to tell. At worst I wouldn?t expect to drop more than a few frames every now and then based on how often I saw the CPU spike above 90% utilization.

Isn't that great? The Nvidia platform struggles a bit but gets the job done while Intel's platform is right fucked and doesn't work at all.

On the next page we have gaming. World of Warcraft sucks on Nvidia's platform, but it's completely unplayable on Intel's platform.

Gaming performance is no contest. This is truly the advantage of Ion. At the lowest possible quality settings in World of Warcraft the Atom/945G platform delivered an average of 7 frames per second in our test. Hardly playable.

A lot of people don't buy laptops to play games, but it does matter. That one time you try to get Diablo 2 or Red Alert 2 working on your ghetto laptop, you're going to be pissed off when your new computer can't even play a game that is 9 years old.

This goes beyond games as well. In the general benchmarks, Nvidia's platform wins at mundane things like compressing files.

Here Ion is 15% faster than Intel?s standard Atom platform and it?s a very realistic usage scenario, even for an Atom.

While you can argue that you may not game on an Atom based machine and you wouldn?t want to edit images in Photoshop on one either, compressing files will happen and it just happens faster on Ion.

The advantage here appears to be memory bandwidth. While 945G is limited to a single DDR2-667 channel, the Ion reference platform runs DDR3-1066 yielding nearly 60% more memory bandwidth.

Intel is just wrong on this one. They're selling a crappy product and are getting upset because Nvidia wants to make a product that is actually capable of doing things that a normal computer does, such as play movies, play games, and compress files.

 

[dmens]

Intel never intended the Atom to be used in the netbook, rather, they wanted it to be used in the MID market where it wouldn't cannibalize sales of their C2D and other lines.

that is total BS. back when silverthorne was just a concept it was already targeted towards the "thin & light" segment and downwards, but ended up on an even lower power form factor. atom can be cranked up to compete with a c2d, but that's retarded because it defeats the entire atom design philosophy.

 

[dmens]

Originally posted by: ShawnD1
Intel is just wrong on this one. They're selling a crappy product and are getting upset because Nvidia wants to make a product that is actually capable of doing things that a normal computer does, such as play movies, play games, and compress files.

how much is that platform with DDR3 memory? newsflash: people buy atom because it is cheap and don't use it to play games, watch blu-ray movies (are there even any netbooks with a blu-ray drive?) or compress 300MB archives. that "crappy product" will never be a normal computer. duh.

also, the intel atom chipset could be more power efficient but that's a totally different criticism.

 

[theeedude]

I would be perfectly fine with an Atom or Nano + Ion notebook as my sole computer. As long as it plays HD Video and has HDMI output for me to plug my TV in, I don't really care what CPU it has, as long as it's dual core, so I can run one app in background and one in foreground. I am not running simulations or databases on my notebook. I just want to browse web, download and watch movies, maybe do occasional photoshop. Intel is trying to neuter netbooks because they are threatened by them. That's why they dictate the size of screen that can be used with Atom, etc. Because they know that with a good chipset, Atom can cannibalize their laptop and even desktop CPU sales in consumer and even entry business space. We are moving towards cloud computing model, where the heavy computational lifting is done on servers, while the user machine acts as a multimedia terminal to render the experience to the user.

 

[aka1nas]

Originally posted by: dmens

Originally posted by: ShawnD1
Intel is just wrong on this one. They're selling a crappy product and are getting upset because Nvidia wants to make a product that is actually capable of doing things that a normal computer does, such as play movies, play games, and compress files.

how much is that platform with DDR3 memory? newsflash: people buy atom because it is cheap and don't use it to play games, watch blu-ray movies (are there even any netbooks with a blu-ray drive?) or compress 300MB archives. that "crappy product" will never be a normal computer. duh.

also, the intel atom chipset could be more power efficient but that's a totally different criticism.

You ever look at the user forums for the Eee? Half of the morons on there are bitching that their netbook won't play WoW.

 

[ilkhan]

Originally posted by: Cookie Monster

Originally posted by: ilkhan
Long as the platform can support aero, 720p h264, and 1080p if possible (video output to a TV/nettop) I dont care what else it can do. Intel is spot on here.

Thing is, the ion platform can run 1080p content no problem thanks to the MCP79 ala geforce 9400 (or 9300 doesn't really matter). On the other hand its the intel netbooks that cant run 1080p content.

1080p isn't worth a 33% increase in cost.

$300 atom+945 vs $400 ion, Im gonna forgo 1080p, settle for 720p (which, btw, is the vast majority of TV and movie content on the shadowweb, along with being half the file size) and be happy.

 

[SunnyD]

Originally posted by: Jabbernyx

Originally posted by: SunnyD
Nvidia already announced and demo'd Ion Nano... a 9400 chipset with a VIA Nano strapped onto it. People weren't impressed.

That sounds a little like a Ferrari with a golf cart engine inside

And Intel Atom platforms are what? A Ford Fiesta with a Ford Fiesta engine in it?

 

[waffleironhead]

Originally posted by: Jabbernyx

Originally posted by: SunnyD
Nvidia already announced and demo'd Ion Nano... a 9400 chipset with a VIA Nano strapped onto it. People weren't impressed.

That sounds a little like a Ferrari with a golf cart engine inside

Really no difference than strapping a 9400 with an Atom, yet people are upset its not going to happen. Last I heard and read the nano was on par with the Atom. Have things changed?

 

[Denithor]

Originally posted by: SunnyD
And Intel Atom platforms are what? A Ford Fiesta with a Ford Fiesta engine in it?

Actually it's closer to a Ford Pinto with a Ford Fiesta engine in it.

Originally posted by: dmens

Originally posted by: Bateluer
Intel never intended the Atom to be used in the netbook, rather, they wanted it to be used in the MID market where it wouldn't cannibalize sales of their C2D and other lines.

Originally posted by: ShawnD1
Intel is just wrong on this one. They're selling a crappy product and are getting upset because Nvidia wants to make a product that is actually capable of doing things that a normal computer does, such as play movies, play games, and compress files.

how much is that platform with DDR3 memory? newsflash: people buy atom because it is cheap and don't use it to play games, watch blu-ray movies (are there even any netbooks with a blu-ray drive?) or compress 300MB archives. that "crappy product" will never be a normal computer. duh.

also, the intel atom chipset could be more power efficient but that's a totally different criticism.

Newsflash - with the right chipset Atom can do those things & more. So why wouldn't you, if you could? I think the quotes are right on target - nVidia has trotted out a pony that does more than Intel can answer and should be a nice success in certain niche applications.

Intel isn't pissed about losing the 945GC sales - they're worried that the new setup will cannibalize C2D sales as people use these setups for micro HTPCs etc instead of an e5200 or whatever.

I personally have an e7300 HTPC and have to leave the glass door on my cabinet open while it's on just to prevent it from overheating. With an Atom/ION setup that wouldn't be an issue.

 

[Idontcare]

Originally posted by: Denithor
Intel isn't pissed about losing the 945GC sales - they're worried that the new setup will cannibalize C2D sales as people use these setups for micro HTPCs etc instead of an e5200 or whatever.

Ding ding ding ding - and we have a WINNER folks!

Bingo, 100% all the way QFT.

Atom was always going to be a threat to Intel's ASPs in the low-end of the mainstream laptop/notebook markets.

The assurance that this would not occur came from the expectation that Intel would be able to discreetly and directly control how and where Atom's were deployed across the varying sub-segments.

Nvidia threatens this perception of control over Atom's market segment deployment.

NV doesn't need to make their own x86 chip to compete with Intel and AMD if they can buy one that's good enough for $35 to strap into their platform which then relies on their GPU's and CUDA to do as much of the heavy lifting as necessary.

NV is seizing on the opportunity. Intel is going into panic mode over the possibility of losing control of the ASP destroyer that they created but might not have sole control over.

I can just see the memo's flying around right now "you SOB's in marketing told me you could CONTAIN atom sales to a market segment that would not compete with our higher ASP SKU's in the notebook and sub-notebook markets, now look where this is going! If NV puts one of these in a 15" notebook and uses the extra power-budget to boost their GPU power consumption then they'll destroy any 15" gaming notebook out there with our C2D chips inside, argh!".

 

[SunnyD]

Originally posted by: waffleironhead

Originally posted by: Jabbernyx

Originally posted by: SunnyD
Nvidia already announced and demo'd Ion Nano... a 9400 chipset with a VIA Nano strapped onto it. People weren't impressed.

That sounds a little like a Ferrari with a golf cart engine inside

Really no difference than strapping a 9400 with an Atom, yet people are upset its not going to happen. Last I heard and read the nano was on par with the Atom. Have things changed?

Nano has higher power consumption than Atom. I'm not sure how it performs relative though.

 

[aigomorla]

Originally posted by: Cookie Monster

Originally posted by: ilkhan
Long as the platform can support aero, 720p h264, and 1080p if possible (video output to a TV/nettop) I dont care what else it can do. Intel is spot on here.

Thing is, the ion platform can run 1080p content no problem thanks to the MCP79 ala geforce 9400 (or 9300 doesn't really matter). On the other hand its the intel netbooks that cant run 1080p content.

Where do you even have a hd space large enough on a netbook to store HD movies on? (while keeping its cheap value point?)

Incase you didnt know an average HD movie is roughly around 8-15gigs in space. (i buy my BlueRay Disks, Rip encode it, and then throw it in a box for storage, so i know how much space these guys take, and the requirements to play them.)

And if you say stream.. since when was G good enough to stream HD?
blue ray Player? On a Netbook is also funny...
Lasty, WHICH NETBOOK HAS 1080p Resolution!?!??!?!?!

But yes the 9400 chipset can play HD 1080p, but im laughing at you guys thinkn your gonna get one playing on a netbook.

Its like saying, im gonna NOS my golf cart now, and take down your porsche 911 tubro.

 

[Denithor]

Originally posted by: Idontcare
I can just see the memo's flying around right now "you SOB's in marketing told me you could CONTAIN atom sales to a market segment that would not compete with our higher ASP SKU's in the notebook and sub-notebook markets, now look where this is going! If NV puts one of these in a 15" notebook and uses the extra power-budget to boost their GPU power consumption then they'll destroy any 15" gaming notebook out there with our C2D chips inside, argh!".

:laugh:

Wonder how long it will take nVidia to find a way to use CUDA to emulate x86?

 

[dmens]

Intel isn't pissed about losing the 945GC sales - they're worried that the new setup will cannibalize C2D sales as people use these setups for micro HTPCs etc instead of an e5200 or whatever.

ok, so you soup up the atom with better gfx capabilities. what's the demand out there for a laptop that can barely game instead of cannot game at all? who the hell buys laptops for gaming anyways, besides morons? for HTPC ion would be very attractive, but HTPC has not exactly taken off.

NV is right about the GPU's growing importance, but the time when it overshadows the CPU has not come yet looking at current usage models. and even well before that time comes, they won't be the only vector crunchers around.

Wonder how long it will take nVidia to find a way to use CUDA to emulate x86?

i'd like to see the performance of such an emulation. sounds like a poor man's solution. hehehehe.

 

[aigomorla]

if you guys also consider the fact that only a very small percentage of computer users even require a high end video card.

I highly doubt CUDA will take over the the X86 market.

Enterprise machines do not come with 9800GX2's or 280GTX preinstalled.
Infact on enterprise sector im hearing ATI's FireGL line' is better then Nvidia's Quadro line.

you guys have no understanding of how small your market niche is compared to the rest of the world.

Meaning for ever gaming machine thats built, theres about 10-15 enterprise machines doing work at offices.

Originally posted by: dmens
for HTPC ion would be very attractive, but HTPC has not exactly taken off.

now tell me the idiot who would build an ion ground up and do this instead of going an AMD + 790G route?

Please so we can spank him together.

 

[nonameo]

nVidia just needs to break down and make their own value console system.

 

[Idontcare]

Originally posted by: nonameo
nVidia just needs to break down and make their own value console system.

You mean wii it up a bit? Interesting proposal. Interesting indeed.

 

[aigomorla]

Originally posted by: nonameo
nVidia just needs to break down and make their own value console system.

i would love to see one of those.

If nvidia went after the console market, im sure they would have a winner.

 

[Cookie Monster]

Originally posted by: aigomorla
Where do you even have a hd space large enough on a netbook to store HD movies on? (while keeping its cheap value point?)

Incase you didnt know an average HD movie is roughly around 8-15gigs in space. (i buy my BlueRay Disks, Rip encode it, and then throw it in a box for storage, so i know how much space these guys take, and the requirements to play them.)

And if you say stream.. since when was G good enough to stream HD?
blue ray Player? On a Netbook is also funny...
Lasty, WHICH NETBOOK HAS 1080p Resolution!?!??!?!?!

But yes the 9400 chipset can play HD 1080p, but im laughing at you guys thinkn your gonna get one playing on a netbook.

Its like saying, im gonna NOS my golf cart now, and take down your porsche 911 tubro.

The ion platform can be used either in a netbook, or what they call a "nettop" as I just found out (and probably even other concepts like apple PCs nowadays, with ion being integrated to the monitor itself). Plug in your optical esata/USB 2.0 drive + the TV monitor and your good to go.

AT already showed us what the MCP79 was capable of. It can help the atom quite abit when playing 1080p content. Theres no laughing because its already proven it can.

And yes, 1080p movies do take quite abit of space

edit - review of via nano

 

[SunnyD]

Originally posted by: Cookie Monster
edit - review of via nano

A little overclocking, a mid-range video card (maybe a 4670 or even a 9800GT), a mini-PCI TV Tuner card, a decent sized CF card and a couple of 2.5" SATA drives would make for one kickass HTPC/Mini-Gaming machine! I want!

 

[Cookie Monster]

Originally posted by: SunnyD

Originally posted by: Cookie Monster
edit - review of via nano

A little overclocking, a mid-range video card (maybe a 4670 or even a 9800GT), a mini-PCI TV Tuner card, a decent sized CF card and a couple of 2.5" SATA drives would make for one kickass HTPC/Mini-Gaming machine! I want!

Yea it sure does sound kickass, which is why I like how the ion platform will also support the via nano. Im sure that the nano is based on the 65nm process though which is incredible compared to its performance result.

 

[Idontcare]

Originally posted by: Cookie Monster

Originally posted by: SunnyD

Originally posted by: Cookie Monster
edit - review of via nano

A little overclocking, a mid-range video card (maybe a 4670 or even a 9800GT), a mini-PCI TV Tuner card, a decent sized CF card and a couple of 2.5" SATA drives would make for one kickass HTPC/Mini-Gaming machine! I want!

Yea it sure does sound kickass, which is why I like how the ion platform will also support the via nano. Im sure that the nano is based on the 65nm process though which is incredible compared to its performance result.

Atom wasn't solely optimized for performance though, it was optimized for cost and power consumption as well.

I doubt Via will be able to sell Nano for less than $35 and still make 55% gross margins.

 

[SunnyD]

Originally posted by: Idontcare

Originally posted by: Cookie Monster

Originally posted by: SunnyD

Originally posted by: Cookie Monster
edit - review of via nano

A little overclocking, a mid-range video card (maybe a 4670 or even a 9800GT), a mini-PCI TV Tuner card, a decent sized CF card and a couple of 2.5" SATA drives would make for one kickass HTPC/Mini-Gaming machine! I want!

Yea it sure does sound kickass, which is why I like how the ion platform will also support the via nano. Im sure that the nano is based on the 65nm process though which is incredible compared to its performance result.

Atom wasn't solely optimized for performance though, it was optimized for cost and power consumption as well.

I doubt Via will be able to sell Nano for less than $35 and still make 55% gross margins.

That's not OUR problem now, is it?

 

[Denithor]

Originally posted by: nonameo
nVidia just needs to break down and make their own value console system.

Like this?

Whatever you think of Nintendo?s diminutive Wii console, you can?t deny that the idea of a motion-sensing game controller has been enormously successful for the company. It?s already inspired numerous derivatives too, from the Asus Eee Stick, to the Logitech MX Air, and now Acer looks like it?s going to get in on the wand-waving action with a small form factor PC called the Hornet that comes with a familiar-looking gamepad controller.

Donanimhaber has just leaked some slides detailing the Hornet, which the site says will be based on Nvidia?s Ion platform. In the slides, the device is shown to come with a game controller that can also act as an ?air mouse? and ?home media controller.?

Unlike the Wii, the Hornet will also have an HDMI output according to the presentation, and it will also have the ability to play various PC games. However, given that the Ion GPU only has 16 stream processors, it won?t be able to play them at particularly high settings.

Even so, the ability to playback HD movies as well as functioning as a PC and games machine would make the Hornet quite a versatile, low-budget machine, especially if it genuinely only costs ?couple hundreds [sic] dollars? as it says in the presentation.

Acer was unable to comment on the slides, but did say that the company would be launching some new product designs in Amsterdam in April. Whether the Hornet will be among them is as yet unconfirmed, but the company has previously expressed an interest in building Ion-based products in the second half of this year.

In a recent interview with Laptopmag, Acer?s vice president of product marketing, Sumit Agnihotry, commented on Nvidia?s Ion platform, saying that ?the benefits are great, including the ability to play back high def content. You will see us looking at this technology much closer in our second half products.?

Nvidia wouldn?t confirm whether the Hornet would definitely feature an Ion motherboard, saying that we would have to ask Acer, but the lack of any kind of denial makes it look as though Acer has an Ion-based PC in the works.