Oooh, controversy!

Orsorum

Lifer
Dec 26, 2001
27,631
5
81
So some random 17-year-old female cousin of mine sent me a forward (that I've gotten five times or so since I've gotten the int4rweb) that goes something like this:

It is said that 86% of Americans believe in God. Therefore I have a very hard time understanding why there is such a mess about having "In God We Trust" on our money and having God in the Pledge of Allegiance. Why don't we just tell the 14% to Sit Down and SHUT UP!!! If you agree, pass this on, if not delete.

So I, in the spirit of attempting to piss off as many of my more dogmatically-minded relatives, sent this reply:

Mandi,

The terms "In God We Trust" and the inclusion of "under god" in the Pledge of Allegiance were added in the 1950's to counteract supposed Communist dogma and rhetoric. While Judeo-Christian values have had a powerful impact upon our nation, they are by no means the sole or necessarily the greatest influence upon our Founding Fathers and their ideals (look up the Enlightenment, Jefferson, Washington, etc. Also see if you can find a comparison of the Ten Commandments and the Code of Hammurabi, and their embodiment in our legal system).

If you are appealing to the concept of majority rule, I refer you to the Bill of Rights, Article 1 (Freedom of Religion, and of a dissociation between church and state). As all-encompassing as the term "God" may be, it does still refer to a particular religious creed, and the inclusion of this term as a motto or governmental creed is violating that first (and arguably most important) constitutional right.

I realize that you are probably not looking for such a branded response, and my apologies if that is the case. Otherwise, respond! Conflict is fun!

Nate

Thoughts?
 

Martin

Lifer
Jan 15, 2000
29,178
1
81
worst answer ever! I mean, if more poeple were like you, what would happen to our cherished religious flamewars?!

;)
 

AEB

Senior member
Jun 12, 2003
681
0
0
i dont see too much of a problem with it but you are trying to read peoples minds we cant say for sure WHY something passed. but our founding fathers made it clear this was a nation founded on strong religious beliefs, and the supreme court IMO is getting out of hand lately and is doing what they want instead of interpreting the constitution
one could look at striking the word GOD from everything and anything is supportive of athiests. at any rate i think people are just being stupid there are much bigger issues we coul dbe spending our time on like reverse racisim
 

HombrePequeno

Diamond Member
Mar 7, 2001
4,657
0
0
Originally posted by: AEB
i dont see too much of a problem with it but you are trying to read peoples minds we cant say for sure WHY something passed. but our founding fathers made it clear this was a nation founded on strong religious beliefs, and the supreme court IMO is getting out of hand lately and is doing what they want instead of interpreting the constitution
one could look at striking the word GOD from everything and anything is supportive of athiests. at any rate i think people are just being stupid there are much bigger issues we coul dbe spending our time on like reverse racisim

That's odd considering that quite a few of our founding fathers weren't even religious.
 

SViscusi

Golden Member
Apr 12, 2000
1,200
8
81
Originally posted by: AEB
i dont see too much of a problem with it but you are trying to read peoples minds we cant say for sure WHY something passed.

No one needs to read any minds. After signing the bill adding the words under god Eisenhower said:

"From this day forward, the millions of our school children will daily proclaim in every city and town, every village and rural schoolhouse, the dedication of our Nation and our people to the Almighty."

but our founding fathers made it clear this was a nation founded on strong religious beliefs,

Which founding fathers are these? The ones that said:

John Adams (1735-1826) " As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion ...." Article 11, Treaty of Peace and Friendship between the United States and the Bey and Subjects of Tripoli of Barbary

or how about

Thomas Paine: I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of...Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all."
From: The Age of Reason by Thomas Paine, pp. 8,9 (Republished 1984, Prometheus Books, Buffalo, NY)

or

James Madison: "Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise."

"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution."

From: The Madisons by Virginia Moore, P. 43 (1979, McGraw-Hill Co. New York, NY) quoting a letter by JM to William Bradford April 1, 1774, and James Madison, A Biography in his Own Words, edited by Joseph Gardner, p. 93, (1974, Newsweek, New York, NY) Quoting Memorial and Remonstrance against Religious Assessments by JM, June 1785.

let's not forget about Jefferson

"I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should ?make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,? thus, building a wall of separation between Church and State." [letter to the Danbury Baptist Association]

not to mention he called the bible a dunghill.

There's many more, google is your friend.

and the supreme court IMO is getting out of hand lately and is doing what they want instead of interpreting the constitution
one could look at striking the word GOD from everything and anything is supportive of athiests.

Firstly of all, what they are doing is interpreting the constituition. And Everything? Nope just from the govement.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Kind of contradicts what Eisenhower said, huh?

And by removing God from public instiutions, everyone benifits. Would you want 'under god' changed to 'under vishnu' or 'under allah'? How about instead of putting the 10 commandments up on courthouses, let's put up Hammurabi's Code of Laws or something from the Koran.

None of that is acceptable. The govement is not an institution of religion.
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
57,008
18,247
146
A favorite cut and paste I made as a standard answer for the "In God We Trust" and "Christian Nation" sheep:

Think about the "Christian America" myth for a moment: If America was truly founded as an explicitly Christian nation (as is continually proclaimed by "Christian" activists such as James Dobson, Pat Robertson, D. James Kennedy, Chuck Colson, Tim and Beverly LaHaye, Jerry Falwell, Bill Gothard, etc.), then why do we find no mention whatsoever of Jesus, Christ, Christian or Bible in America's founding documents? --not in the Declaration of Independence nor in the Constitution of the United States. In fact, the Constitution does not even make a single reference to any "god." And the reference to a "creator" in the Declaration of Independence is merely an ambiguous "creator," a "Creator" that is vague and subordinated to natural laws that everyone should know through common sense, i.e., "self-evident" truths. (This fits when one realizes that it's author was a Deist, not a Christian.) Moreover, the Bible, Jesus, or Christianity is never mentioned nor alluded to in either document. Nor is God, Jesus, Christ, Bible or Christianity mentioned in the hundreds of pages of the Federalist Papers (the "working documents" of the Founding Fathers). Strange stuff for a nation that some like to say was founded as "Christian." But myths die hard, if ever.

It must be remembered that, The Founding Fathers did NOT put "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance or "In God We Trust" on U.S. currency. "Under God" was added to the Pledge by an act of Congress in 1954, during the McCarthy "communist witch hunt" hysteria. "In God We Trust" began to appear on coins in 1864 and became the official motto of the United States only in 1956. [The motto conceived by the Founding Fathers was "E Pluribus Unum" (Out of Many, One).]

"The government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion"
(Treaty with Tripoli, 1797. Presented by President and Founding Father John Adams, and ratified unanimously by Congress.)

"No religious Test shall ever be required as a qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States"
(U. S. Constitution, 1787, Art. 6, Sec. 3).

"I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus, building a wall of separation between Church and State"
(Thomas Jefferson, 1802, letter to Danbury Baptist Association).

"The civil government functions with complete success by the total separation of the Church from the State"
(James Madison [author of the first amendment], 1819, Writings, 8:432).

"Every new & successful example therefore of a perfect separation between ecclesiastical and civil matters, is of importance"
(James Madison, 1822, Writings, 9:101).

"Strongly guarded as is the separation between Religion and Government in the Constitution of the United States, the danger of encroachment by Ecclesiastical Bodies, may be illustrated by precedents already furnished in their short history"
(James Madison, undated, William and Mary Quarterly, 1946, 3:555).

"And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in showing that religion and Govt (sic) will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together."
(James Madison, letter to Edward Livingston, 1822)
 

Trezza

Senior member
Sep 18, 2002
522
0
0
Originally posted by: SViscusi
Originally posted by: AEB
i dont see too much of a problem with it but you are trying to read peoples minds we cant say for sure WHY something passed.

No one needs to read any minds. After signing the bill adding the words under god Eisenhower said:

"From this day forward, the millions of our school children will daily proclaim in every city and town, every village and rural schoolhouse, the dedication of our Nation and our people to the Almighty."

but our founding fathers made it clear this was a nation founded on strong religious beliefs,

Which founding fathers are these? The ones that said:

John Adams (1735-1826) " As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion ...." Article 11, Treaty of Peace and Friendship between the United States and the Bey and Subjects of Tripoli of Barbary

or how about

Thomas Paine: I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of...Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all."
From: The Age of Reason by Thomas Paine, pp. 8,9 (Republished 1984, Prometheus Books, Buffalo, NY)

or

James Madison: "Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise."

"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution."

From: The Madisons by Virginia Moore, P. 43 (1979, McGraw-Hill Co. New York, NY) quoting a letter by JM to William Bradford April 1, 1774, and James Madison, A Biography in his Own Words, edited by Joseph Gardner, p. 93, (1974, Newsweek, New York, NY) Quoting Memorial and Remonstrance against Religious Assessments by JM, June 1785.

let's not forget about Jefferson

"I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should ?make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,? thus, building a wall of separation between Church and State." [letter to the Danbury Baptist Association]

not to mention he called the bible a dunghill.

There's many more, google is your friend.

and the supreme court IMO is getting out of hand lately and is doing what they want instead of interpreting the constitution
one could look at striking the word GOD from everything and anything is supportive of athiests.

Firstly of all, what they are doing is interpreting the constituition. And Everything? Nope just from the govement.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Kind of contradicts what Eisenhower said, huh?

And by removing God from public instiutions, everyone benifits. Would you want 'under god' changed to 'under vishnu' or 'under allah'? How about instead of putting the 10 commandments up on courthouses, let's put up Hammurabi's Code of Laws or something from the Koran.

None of that is acceptable. The govement is not an institution of religion.

ummm were they catholic?