Only 31% of Americans want an EV or PHEV. What about you?

[Brainonska511]

FYI - The GOP Big Beautiful Tax Bill will impose a yearly BEV fee of $250 for anyone that dares to drive a BEV. For those that drive a hybrid it will be $100 a year.

I don't see how that would be effectively administered since vehicles are only registered with state authorities. And IANAL (not that laws and constitution seem to matter much), but a direct tax on BEVs and hybrid owners seems like it could violate the apportionment clause for taxation.

 

[Brovane]

I don't see how that would be effectively administered since vehicles are only registered with state authorities. And IANAL (not that laws and constitution seem to matter much), but a direct tax on BEVs and hybrid owners seems like it could violate the apportionment clause for taxation.

I expect that the Federal government would ask the states to collect the yearly registration fee and if they don't they wouldn't get Federal Highway funds.

As far as legality of this maneuver, I expect lawsuits.

 

[Brainonska511]

I expect that the Federal government would ask the states to collect the yearly registration fee and if they don't they wouldn't get Federal Highway funds.

I guess they could try that approach, but it could easily end up the same as how Medicaid expansion was kneecapped (of course, with this court, who knows? They just make it up based on how they feel).

As far as legality of this maneuver, I expect lawsuits.

Yes, I would expect that as well. It's a stupid and petty move on the part of Republicans to punish people for choosing electric vehicles. Other countries are going to eat our lunch as they leapfrog past the US.

Yes, roads need to be funded, but there are better ways, including raising the gas tax and having it adjust for inflation or adding an excise tax to vehicle sales based on weight. The latter could be particularly useful given that road damage is proportional to weight to the 4th power.

 

[Stopsignhank]

I guess they could try that approach, but it could easily end up the same as how Medicaid expansion was kneecapped (of course, with this court, who knows? They just make it up based on how they feel).

Yes, I would expect that as well. It's a stupid and petty move on the part of Republicans to punish people for choosing electric vehicles. Other countries are going to eat our lunch as they leapfrog past the US.

Yes, roads need to be funded, but there are better ways, including raising the gas tax and having it adjust for inflation or adding an excise tax to vehicle sales based on weight. The latter could be particularly useful given that road damage is proportional to weight to the 4th power.

This all raises an interesting point. I currently have an electric car, a hybrid car and solar on my house. So how do I pay for the upkeep of the infrastructure? I don't mind paying to upkeep the infrastructure, but what is the best way to do this? I remember when I got solar in my previous house the power was out and I was wondering when the power would come back on, at the same time I was wondering if they were going to mail be a check for my $59 annual credit.

I don't mind paying some type of usage tax but I certainly do not trust this administration to administer it.

 

[Brovane]

This all raises an interesting point. I currently have an electric car, a hybrid car and solar on my house. So how do I pay for the upkeep of the infrastructure? I don't mind paying to upkeep the infrastructure, but what is the best way to do this? I remember when I got solar in my previous house the power was out and I was wondering when the power would come back on, at the same time I was wondering if they were going to mail be a check for my $59 annual credit.

I don't mind paying some type of usage tax but I certainly do not trust this administration to administer it.

For infrastructure cost of roads the traditional way to collect fees was either toll roads or excise tax on gasoline or a combination of both. With us having vehicles using alternative fuels, the way those usage fees are collected needs to change.

Either we move to a flat usage fee per year on registration. This should probably be based on a combination of vehicle weight and assuming you drive about 13,000-14,000 miles year year.

The other solution would be to move to a road usage vehicle based on vehicle weight and miles driven per year for all vehicles and elimination of gas tax. However this would require some type of way to collect miles driven. I don't think many people would like this. They talked about doing this in CA and got a lot of pushback.

 

[Fenixgoon]

For infrastructure cost of roads the traditional way to collect fees was either toll roads or excise tax on gasoline or a combination of both. With us having vehicles using alternative fuels, the way those usage fees are collected needs to change.

Either we move to a flat usage fee per year on registration. This should probably be based on a combination of vehicle weight and assuming you drive about 13,000-14,000 miles year year.

The other solution would be to move to a road usage vehicle based on vehicle weight and miles driven per year for all vehicles and elimination of gas tax. However this would require some type of way to collect miles driven. I don't think many people would like this. They talked about doing this in CA and got a lot of pushback.

All you'd have to do is check at registration renewal. Instead of doing emissions or safety inspections, have mechanics sign off on odometer readings

 

[Brovane]

All you'd have to do is check at registration renewal. Instead of doing emissions or safety inspections, have mechanics sign off on odometer readings

I would think with newer vehicles there would a way to report mileage securely without requiring a trip to a mechanic.

CA is looking at a road charge per mile. However there has been pushback on this. Including people claiming that CA wouldn't get rid of it's gas tax, just add the road charge on top of the gas tax.

 

[Fenixgoon]

I would think with newer vehicles there would a way to report mileage securely without requiring a trip to a mechanic.

CA is looking at a road charge per mile. However there has been pushback on this. Including people claiming that CA wouldn't get rid of it's gas tax, just add the road charge on top of the gas tax.

Road charge per mile makes sense for every vehicle based on weight. A fuel tax is a decent proxy because heavier vehicles get worse fuel economy (although the fuel tax probably doesn't scale with the road damage caused).

I'm wholly in favor of a weight-based road tax for EVs and increased fuel taxes for ICE (considering fuel taxes have been stagnant for years). Both would have the net effect of favoring smaller, lighter, more fuel efficient vehicles.

 

[thedarkwolf]

I'm fine with a flat fee just to make thing easy but base it on reality. Between my state and the feds now I'm paying gas tax like I'm driving an f-350 dually pulling a 20k lb trailer everywhere.

 

[Red Squirrel]

Should just be a flat fee to cover the admin cost of the licensing system, maybe have tiers based on weight and that's it. Per km is just ridiculous and would make driving unaffordable for those that drive more or those who own farms and do lot of driving on their own land. People like to say that driving is a privilege and want to see those basically be punished for being slightly better off, but reality is we all rely on people who drive every day for society to work. The fact that EVs are cheaper to operate is a GOOD thing, stop trying to change that by wanting to tax them more or whatever.

 

[Fenixgoon]

I'm fine with a flat fee just to make thing easy but base it on reality. Between my state and the feds now I'm paying gas tax like I'm driving an f-350 dually pulling a 20k lb trailer everywhere.

A flat fee doesn't account for usage though, which is the whole point of any sort of fuel or nileage-based tax.

A car that doesn't move, doesn't damage the road

 

[Fallen Kell]

I don't see how that would be effectively administered since vehicles are only registered with state authorities. And IANAL (not that laws and constitution seem to matter much), but a direct tax on BEVs and hybrid owners seems like it could violate the apportionment clause for taxation.

No it won't be hard to do or figure out as it just becomes a checkbox on your tax form, which can get audited by cross-referencing with state registration records if you get selected to be audited. And you get fined/charged just like anyone else if you lied on the tax forms (and given that this isn't something you could hide like not claiming a gift someone gave you or small winnings that you had at a casino/race track/sports betting which were under the automatic reportable levels, you would be an idiot for not properly selecting it and paying up).

And the charge is simply the national highway tax fee that BEV and Hybrid vehicles are not paying as it is implemented on sales of gas. Now there is quite a bit to be said about having it based on mileage and wear/tear to the road. I would personally be all for such an implementation, but there are way to many lobbyists that will not let that happen, especially since the damage/wear/tear is logarithmicly proportional to the weight of the vehicle (i.e. the damage a 2,000 lb vehicle does is less than 1% the damage a 20,000 lb vehicle does, which is less than 1% the damage a 200,000 lb vehicle does, so the shipping industry and construction vehicles should be footing the real costs of the damage since they are the vehicles causing most of it).

 

[Brainonska511]

No it won't be hard to do or figure out. And the charge is simply the national highway tax fee that BEV and Hybrid vehicles are not paying as it is implemented on sales of gas.

And how do you figure that out? Who is checking vehicle mileage? Who is checking who owns what type of vehicle? The national gas tax is also absurdly low, but that's a whole 'nother discussion.

 

[aigomorla]

I would be fine paying a tax on my EV, if they would actually fix roads, and not launder it somewhere else like california always does.

But money is NEVER used as intended in my state, and always ends up going inside someone's matress or under the sofa seat.

 

[Fallen Kell]

And how do you figure that out? Who is checking vehicle mileage? Who is checking who owns what type of vehicle? The national gas tax is also absurdly low, but that's a whole 'nother discussion.

So most states have vehicle inspections required every few years, and it would be noted then and compared against what you put on your forms, or could simply be given as a bill at the time it is noted in the inspection.... All states require the vehicles to be registered, so everyone knows who owns the vehicle, and the process of registering a used vehicle would trigger an inspection for the mileage, so that the previous owner gets the bill for their miles and they know how many miles the vehicle has for when you have your next inspection.

This really isn't that hard...

 

[Brainonska511]

So most states have vehicle inspections required every few years, and it would be noted then and compared against what you put on your forms, or could simply be given as a bill at the time it is noted in the inspection.... All states require the vehicles to be registered, so everyone knows who owns the vehicle, and the process of registering a used vehicle would trigger an inspection for the mileage, so that the previous owner gets the bill for their miles and they know how many miles the vehicle has for when you have your next inspection.

This really isn't that hard...

And states that don't require inspections?

You're talking about a federal tax, but your describing logistics that require states to do all the legwork to collect it.

 

[aigomorla]

And states that don't require inspections?

i thought a smog check was mandatory for registration renewal in most states every several years.
If its not, im pretty sure they don't even care about enforcing the tax on road ways as its mostly just paved dirt or don't even have a significant amount of EV's to even need to enforce this tax, unless they want to launder money like my state does.

 

[pcgeek11]

i thought a smog check was mandatory for registration renewal in most states every several years.
If its not, im pretty sure they don't even care about enforcing the tax on road ways as its mostly just paved dirt or don't even have a significant amount of EV's to even need to enforce this tax, unless they want to launder money like my state does.

Several states have mandatory vehicle emissions testing, commonly known as smog checks, in specific areas. These states include Arizona, California, Colorado, Connecticut, Delaware, Georgia, Idaho, Illinois, Indiana, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, Missouri, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Jersey, New Mexico, New York, North Carolina, Ohio, Oregon, Pennsylvania, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Vermont, and Virginia.

 

[sdifox]

i thought a smog check was mandatory for registration renewal in most states every several years.
If its not, im pretty sure they don't even care about enforcing the tax on road ways as its mostly just paved dirt or don't even have a significant amount of EV's to even need to enforce this tax, unless they want to launder money like my state does.

Ontario is no longer doing yearly smog test for passenger vehicles

 

[Brainonska511]

i thought a smog check was mandatory for registration renewal in most states every several years.
If its not, im pretty sure they don't even care about enforcing the tax on road ways as its mostly just paved dirt or don't even have a significant amount of EV's to even need to enforce this tax, unless they want to launder money like my state does.

For most of the country, gas/use taxes do not cover road costs, and road funds often need supplementation from general funds (eg, income tax), so you really don't have to worry about gas tax money being "laundered away" for other purposes (related to transportation as a whole, or unrelated altogether).

I'm certainly in favor of more taxes on vehicles because of the negative externalities imposed upon society by all these automobiles and sprawl (sprawling roads aren't cheap), and taxing by mileage use is generally fine in my book. However, it really should include taxing based on weight, because road damage is a proportional to weight to the fourth power.

 

[Red Squirrel]

Driving is already expensive enough as is given the cost of gas and the cost of vehicles themselves, let's not make it worse. Ontario has done a few good moves in the past years such as getting rid of registration renewals altogether which is a good thing.

 

[Fallen Kell]

And states that don't require inspections?

You're talking about a federal tax, but your describing logistics that require states to do all the legwork to collect it.

You are acting like states don't already collect and forward information to the federal government. Why do you think you had to get a new drivers license in the last 10 or so years with a whole lot of additional documentation with you than you normally didn't need before? It was to meet the federal government's RealID requirements which included requiring a photo on the ID taken under specific rules (i.e. no glasses, no hats, not hair covering except for a few religious exceptions, etc.,). All those photos and ID info was sent back to the federal government and added into various databases (and checked against other databases like for federal warrants, various photo searches, etc).

 

[Brainonska511]

You are acting like states don't already forward information to the federal government. Why do you think you had to get a new drivers license in the last 10 or so years with a whole lot of additional documentation with you than you normally didn't need before? It was to meet the federal government's RealID requirements which included requiring a photo on the ID taken under specific rules (i.e. no glasses, no hats, not hair covering except for a few religious exceptions, etc.,). All those photos and ID info was sent back to the federal government and added into various databases (and checked against other databases like for federal warrants, various photo searches, etc).

You didn't *need* to get a real ID. It is entirely optional. Now, if you want to fly, you better have one or a passport, but that is different.

Also doesn't solve the issue of states that don't require routine inspections, or that phase out inspections for vehicles over X years old.

 

[Fallen Kell]

Yes, you don't "need" a real ID, but again, it is an example of the STATES doing the work for the FEDERAL government.... And again, this is all just as a double check for auditing purposes.

The government can simply say provide this on your yearly tax form. Place the current mileage reading from each of your vehicles into box #120. Input how many miles each of your vehicles has driven in the last year into box #121a. Input the weight of the vehicle into box #121b. Using chart #5a, lookup the multiplier rate for each vehicle and place that into box #121c. Multiple the value of box #121a and #121c and place that value into box #121d. Sum the total of all vehicles and place that into box #122.... And then if you get audited, they will send someone out and check the mileage values on your vehicles and compare against your previous years and this years tax submission, and note it to check against what you submit next year...

All the other things are examples of how this data is out there. It is in various garages and auto-shops if you took it in for a repair, oil-change, etc.. The registration data shows what the vehicles are, who owns them, the make, model, etc.... In other words everything needed to double check if you attempted to cheat. So you have a very high likely hood of being caught if you didn't simply fill out the form in the yearly taxes for the correct amount, and now are subject to the much greater crime of tax fraud with associated civil, and criminal penalties....

 

[aigomorla]

Ontario is no longer doing yearly smog test for passenger vehicles

Actually its only good for 8 yrs.. and doesn't apply to used cars after 4.

However, some vehicles are exempt from smog checks in California:

• Gasoline-powered vehicles:
  • 1975 year model or older.
  • Eight model years and newer (for registration renewal, you'll pay an annual smog abatement fee instead).
  • Four model years and newer (for change of ownership)

Lastly i believe you need to report milage to your insurance company in order to get a renewal, and you need to present proof of insurance to the DMV for a registration.

So there is always some form of tracking done on the vehicle.
Whether your truthful or not in reporting tho, its own can of worms, as in no one really checks checks, they just take your word for it, when you report it.