Only 31% of Americans want an EV or PHEV. What about you?

[Brainonska511]

It's funny that 10 of the 12 best selling EVs are not large cars. The top 3 are the Y, 3, and the Bolt. I am pretty sure every one of those was production limited last year as well. Meanwhile the #10 vehicle, the F150, sat on lots forever. Maybe car companies need to learn the Vin diagram of people that currently want an EV and the people that want a huge vehicle has very small overlap. Meanwhile the over lap of people that want sedan sized sedans and hatchbacks is quite large.

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/g46351238/bestselling-ev-2023/

Battery supplies would also go so much further if they weren't wasting production by having to put oversized battery packs in humongous vehicles so they can hit the desired range targets.

I wonder if some of the American auto manufacturing advertising has looped back around on itself like an ouroboros: at first they went on a campaign to convince everyone they needed a larger vehicle, and now the companies believe their own marketing that a larger vehicle is what people truly want.

 

[manly]

Battery supplies would also go so much further if they weren't wasting production by having to put oversized battery packs in humongous vehicles so they can hit the desired range targets.

I wonder if some of the American auto manufacturing advertising has looped back around on itself like an ouroboros: at first they went on a campaign to convince everyone they needed a larger vehicle, and now the companies believe their own marketing that a larger vehicle is what people truly want.

Unfortunately the Big 3 baked "light trucks" into the business model, and seemingly have cornered themselves.* I'm not saying it's impossible to change course, or just to make some better decisions; but if China ever enters the U.S. market, the Big 3 are vulnerable.

So why did Biden suddenly take a page from Trump’s playbook with tariffs?

Seems like it came out of nowhere. And won’t it contribute to inflation? I am confused.

forums.anandtech.com

* And then Trump came along with his idiotic "EVs are evil and we should manufacture 18 mpg ICE trucks forever."

 

[bbhaag]

Unfortunately the Big 3 baked "light trucks" into the business model, and seemingly have cornered themselves.* I'm not saying it's impossible to change course, or just to make some better decisions; but if China ever enters the U.S. market, the Big 3 are vulnerable.

The Big 3 didn't; customer buying trends did.

 

[Fenixgoon]

The Big 3 didn't; customer buying trends did.

CAFE regulations also helped make"light trucks" viable as a business model

 

[Zorba]

The Big 3 didn't; customer buying trends did.

You mean the Big 3 marketing departments did.

 

[Brainonska511]

The Big 3 didn't; customer buying trends did.

Consumer buying trends influenced directly by decades of advertising. We can't act like "consumer preference" is something that exists within a vacuum. It's something that can be directly influenced by advertising. If advertising didn't work, companies wouldn't spend billions of dollars on it.

 

[manly]

Consumer buying trends influenced directly by decades of advertising. We can't act like "consumer preference" is something that exists within a vacuum. It's something that can be directly influenced by advertising. If advertising didn't work, companies wouldn't spend billions of dollars on it.

Yeah obviously it's both, but let's not blame the Big 3 for their role. More to the point, as the WashPo article I referenced discusses, the Big 3 have chosen North American profits over global competition. IIRC the only domestic passenger "car" remaining from the Big 3 is the Ford Mustang (i.e. not a CUV or light truck). These are strategic choices with long-term ramifications.

Global automaking is a very competitive business. I'm not sure how one can sugarcoat Detroit pretty much abandoning China and EU.

The "good news" is that global market share of "SUVs" is now about 50%. We're really good at exporting our exceptionalism to other peoples.

Global Sales of Polluting SUVs Hit Record High in 2023, Data Shows - Slashdot

Sales of SUVs hit a new record in 2023, making up half of all new cars sold globally, data has revealed. Experts warned that the rising sales of the large, heavy vehicles is pushing up the carbon emissions that drive global heating. From a report: The analysis, by the International Energy...

tech.slashdot.org

Buyers worldwide go for bigger cars, erasing gains from cleaner tech. EVs would help

The negative impact on the climate from passenger vehicles, which is considerable, could have dropped by more than 30% over the past decade if not for the world's appetite for large cars, a new report from the Global Fuel Economy Initiative suggests. Sport utility vehicles, or SUVs, now account...

finance.yahoo.com

 

[bbhaag]

CAFE regulations also helped make"light trucks" viable as a business model

Yeah it is a combination of circumstances not just one magic bullet like marketing that @Zorba and @Brainonska511 think it is.

If marketing worked that way then Disney's John Carter wouldn't be one of the best Disney films you have never heard of. If marketing was this almighty brainwashing bullet then we would all be sipping on New Coke while typing on our keyboards but we aren't because marketing only goes so far.

Ford didn't stop manufacturing the Aerostar/Windstar because marketing told them to. Dodge didn't stop manufacturing the Caravan because marketing told them to. They stopped manufacturing them because they started to notice a shift in consumer trends toward a different style of vehicle.

 

[marvdmartian]

Oh, come now! Why shouldn't the average suburban "Karen" be able to haul her two kids around in a 7 passenger behemoth? I'm guessing the reasons are endless!

 

[AdamK47]

I've posted before about how high horsepower complex ICE engines will be akin to precision mechanical watches. They will live on for a very long time as the desire for them will never fade.

Aston Martin has their new V12

https://www.autoweek.com/news/a60642199/aston-martin-v12-engine-coming-for-new-flagship/

Bugatti has their new V16

https://www.motor1.com/news/719031/bugatti-v16-engine-details/

Lamborghini will have a hybrid twin turbo V8 in the Huracan successor

https://www.motor1.com/news/720119/new-lamborghini-v8-details/

McLaren P1 successor will have a new V8 - most likely hybrid

https://www.motor1.com/news/717188/mclaren-p1-successor-new-v8

Ferrari has their new V12 car aptly named 12Cilindri

Ferrari 12Cilindri - Ferrari.com

The Ferrari 12Cilindri is inspired by the legendary Grand Tourers of the 1950s and ‘60s, embodying the front-mounted Ferrari V12 two-seater mission with its effortless combination of elegance, versatility, and performance.

www.ferrari.com

 

[Zorba]

Yeah it is a combination of circumstances not just one magic bullet like marketing that @Zorba and @Brainonska511 think it is.

If marketing worked that way then Disney's John Carter wouldn't be one of the best Disney films you have never heard of. If marketing was this almighty brainwashing bullet then we would all be sipping on New Coke while typing on our keyboards but we aren't because marketing only goes so far.

Ford didn't stop manufacturing the Aerostar/Windstar because marketing told them to. Dodge didn't stop manufacturing the Caravan because marketing told them to. They stopped manufacturing them because they started to notice a shift in consumer trends toward a different style of vehicle.

They actively marketed against minivans and have for decades while pushing the shitty-mini-van (SUVs). If you walk onto a dodge lot and ask to look at a minivan, it's immediately "oh how many kids do you have? Only 1, wouldn't you rather have this giant SUV instead? Why would you want a minivan?"

 

[bbhaag]

They actively marketed against minivans and have for decades while pushing the shitty-mini-van (SUVs). If you walk onto a dodge lot and ask to look at a minivan, it's immediately "oh how many kids do you have? Only 1, wouldn't you rather have this giant SUV instead? Why would you want a minivan?"

Yeah I'm sure Dodge discontinued an automotive segment they created back in 1984 because of marketing. Or hear me out. They saw a shift in consumer buying trends and started marketing toward that.

Look bro I think you need to brush up on your automotive history.

 

[Zorba]

Yeah I'm sure Dodge discontinued an automotive segment they created back in 1984 because of marketing. Or hear me out. They saw a shift in consumer buying trends and started marketing toward that.

Look bro I think you need to brush up on your automotive history.

Which part? That Dodge invented the minivan segment, or that the big three decided that they could make a lot more money convincing people to buy huge SUVs? I suggest you look into the history of marketing of SUVs.

 

[AdamK47]

A report from McKinsey & Company shows that 46% of current EV owners in the US want to switch back to an ICE vehicle.

MSN

www.msn.com

The vehicle that replaces my boring old 2019 etron will be another boring EV. That will probably happen in 2027 with a well depreciated 2025 MY EV.

My fun cars will always be internal combustion. ALWAYS!

 

[Brainonska511]

A report from McKinsey & Company shows that 46% of current EV owners in the US want to switch back to an ICE vehicle.

MSN

www.msn.com

The vehicle that replaces my boring old 2019 etron will be another boring EV. That will probably happen in 2027 with a well depreciated 2025 MY EV.

My fun cars will always be internal combustion. ALWAYS!

A full quarter of respondents noted inability to charge at home as a reason they regret buying. That suggests that at least that subgroup are complete morons.

Also, 1/3 saying the long-distance charging wasn't good enough: fair. But many households also own ≥2 cars. A very feasible solution for those groups would be to have 1 gas car and 1 EV. And if you're a 1-car household and driving long distance enough to constantly rely on external charging, then maybe an EV just wasn't a good choice for you in the first place.

 

[Brovane]

A report from McKinsey & Company shows that 46% of current EV owners in the US want to switch back to an ICE vehicle.

MSN

www.msn.com

The vehicle that replaces my boring old 2019 etron will be another boring EV. That will probably happen in 2027 with a well depreciated 2025 MY EV.

My fun cars will always be internal combustion. ALWAYS!

I would love to know the Make/Model's of the EV's that made up the group that responded to the survey.

 

[Zorba]

A full quarter of respondents noted inability to charge at home as a reason they regret buying. That suggests that at least that subgroup are complete morons.

Also, 1/3 saying the long-distance charging wasn't good enough: fair. But many households also own ≥2 cars. A very feasible solution for those groups would be to have 1 gas car and 1 EV. And if you're a 1-car household and driving long distance enough to constantly rely on external charging, then maybe an EV just wasn't a good choice for you in the first place.

Based on my experience, EVs are much shitter on the highway than the stats make them appear. In the winter I had to charge my Bolt to 100% to do the 100 mi round trip to my inlaws. I thought I could do the round trip to Tulsa at ~180 mi, but no way I'm going to try that now unless I'm staying somewhere with a charger.

If you were relying on public charging here, any EV would be more expensive to drive than an F-150.

Don't get me wrong, for the most part I really like the Bolt, but it'd be horrible without at home charging or without an ICE car to do road trips in (which I actually do a lot).

 

[darkswordsman17]

I've posted before about how high horsepower complex ICE engines will be akin to precision mechanical watches. They will live on for a very long time as the desire for them will never fade.

Aston Martin has their new V12

https://www.autoweek.com/news/a60642199/aston-martin-v12-engine-coming-for-new-flagship/

Bugatti has their new V16

https://www.motor1.com/news/719031/bugatti-v16-engine-details/

Lamborghini will have a hybrid twin turbo V8 in the Huracan successor

https://www.motor1.com/news/720119/new-lamborghini-v8-details/

McLaren P1 successor will have a new V8 - most likely hybrid

https://www.motor1.com/news/717188/mclaren-p1-successor-new-v8

Ferrari has their new V12 car aptly named 12Cilindri

Ferrari 12Cilindri - Ferrari.com

The Ferrari 12Cilindri is inspired by the legendary Grand Tourers of the 1950s and ‘60s, embodying the front-mounted Ferrari V12 two-seater mission with its effortless combination of elegance, versatility, and performance.

www.ferrari.com

Well you can scratch McLaren off of there unless they ever make an actual interesting engine. The 4.0L turbo V-8 couldn't be less interesting, and its in every single McLaren, other than the V-6 that's in the lamest McLaren since that turbo 4 cylinder Mustang from the 80s. Actually, scratch that, the McLaren Mustang was cooler.

I guess they do have that high revving V-10 that's going in the production version of the Gran Turismo car. Pretty sure that's actually made by Cosworth though. F-1 might as well just make them the engine manufacturer and then have them just make a cool sounding engine while they push for dense solid state batteries (maybe swappable to add pit stop drama) to power electric motors. But have the engine rev match the throttle so it matches.

I wonder how engines would sound if you had an electric motor spin them instead of combusting fuel. Basically turn it into a noisy air pump. Satisfy the ASMR fart knockers but also help clean up the air. Win for everyone.

A full quarter of respondents noted inability to charge at home as a reason they regret buying. That suggests that at least that subgroup are complete morons.

Also, 1/3 saying the long-distance charging wasn't good enough: fair. But many households also own ≥2 cars. A very feasible solution for those groups would be to have 1 gas car and 1 EV. And if you're a 1-car household and driving long distance enough to constantly rely on external charging, then maybe an EV just wasn't a good choice for you in the first place.

Its been obvious the whole time that none of the car companies other than Tesla were actually serious about moving to electric, because of how woeful their information and attempt at marketing (its telling that they couldn't even figure out anything until they were like "oh well we'll put 2 motors in there making 400hp and AWD and it'll accelerate really fast" cause that's the level of brains we're dealing with.

If they'd marketed how you need home charging and that would also enable it so that you can then come out to a temp controlled car, it would have done wonders. Plus in the UK they can market to the dogging perverts by putting chargers out in small dark parks.

 

[Brovane]

Based on my experience, EVs are much shitter on the highway than the stats make them appear. In the winter I had to charge my Bolt to 100% to do the 100 mi round trip to my inlaws. I thought I could do the round trip to Tulsa at ~180 mi, but no way I'm going to try that now unless I'm staying somewhere with a charger.

If you were relying on public charging here, any EV would be more expensive to drive than an F-150.

Don't get me wrong, for the most part I really like the Bolt, but it'd be horrible without at home charging or without an ICE car to do road trips in (which I actually do a lot).

My 2019 Leaf is crappy on the Highway and not a good road trip vehicle.

My 2023 Model Y is absolutely fantastic on the Interstate and for road trips. Tesla FSD significantly reduces driver fatigue and Tesla makes charging and finding chargers seamless.

 

[Zorba]

My 2019 Leaf is crappy on the Highway and not a good road trip vehicle.

My 2023 Model Y is absolutely fantastic on the Interstate and for road trips. Tesla FSD significantly reduces driver fatigue and Tesla makes charging and finding chargers seamless.

My coworker was driving his Model 3 round trip from Tulsa to OKC after doing it twice he said he'd never do it again. Range goes down too much at highway speeds so he can't round trip it without charging. Even Tesla charging isn't that convenient and apparently is pretty expensive during rush hour. At least around here Tulsa to OKC isn't considered much of a road trip.

I meanwhile had no problem round tripping it last weekend in my Forester without needing to get gas. And if I had it would've added less than 10 minutes total time, in the Bolt it would've taken an hour or of my day between finding a charger and waiting for it to charge back up.

Right now EVs are still a niche product for people that have at home charging and either do almost no distance driving or have a gas car for that. They are nice for that niche, and it's a pretty big niche, but it is still a niche.

 

[Brovane]

My coworker was driving his Model 3 round trip from Tulsa to OKC after doing it twice he said he'd never do it again. Range goes down too much at highway speeds so he can't round trip it without charging. Even Tesla charging isn't that convenient and apparently is pretty expensive during rush hour. At least around here Tulsa to OKC isn't considered much of a road trip.

Model 3 RWD? I drove from my house in East San Diego to the Baker SC 210m+ at 70-80+ mph speeds in 100+ degree temps a couple of weeks ago when I was driving to Cisco Live in Las Vegas. I arrived with 19% charge in Baker. I have a Model Y LR. The Tulsa SC is $.36 kwh and the charging fee isn't TOU. Why would your co-worker think it is more expensive during rush hour when neither SC in Tulsa does Time of Use? At $.36 kwh you are looking at energy cost of $.10 per mile. (Assuming about 3.5 miles per kwh).

 

[jlee]

My coworker was driving his Model 3 round trip from Tulsa to OKC after doing it twice he said he'd never do it again. Range goes down too much at highway speeds so he can't round trip it without charging. Even Tesla charging isn't that convenient and apparently is pretty expensive during rush hour. At least around here Tulsa to OKC isn't considered much of a road trip.

I meanwhile had no problem round tripping it last weekend in my Forester without needing to get gas. And if I had it would've added less than 10 minutes total time, in the Bolt it would've taken an hour or of my day between finding a charger and waiting for it to charge back up.

Right now EVs are still a niche product for people that have at home charging and either do almost no distance driving or have a gas car for that. They are nice for that niche, and it's a pretty big niche, but it is still a niche.

The Bolt is about the worst road tripping car you could name. Anyway, speed makes a dramatic difference. If your highway speed is 80mph+ you'll get well under EPA range. Given I44, I'm assuming 'highway speed' is probably closer to 90, with an 80mph speed limit?

FWIW my R1T is rated for 314 miles and I have done 328 on 96% of the battery, mostly highway at 60-70mph. That would not happen at 80+.

 

[Zorba]

The Bolt is about the worst road tripping car you could name. Anyway, speed makes a dramatic difference. If your highway speed is 80mph+ you'll get well under EPA range. Given I44, I'm assuming 'highway speed' is probably closer to 90, with an 80mph speed limit?

FWIW my R1T is rated for 314 miles and I have done 328 on 96% of the battery, mostly highway at 60-70mph. That would not happen at 80+.

Yeah, speed is a huge factor. That part of I44 is 2/3 75mph and 1/3 80 mph. I am sure my coworker was probably going over that, I'll ask how far he actually drove it. I know he also made his charging experience worse by charging to 100% in OKC.

 

[Brovane]

Yeah, speed is a huge factor. That part of I44 is 2/3 75mph and 1/3 80 mph. I am sure my coworker was probably going over that, I'll ask how far he actually drove it. I know he also made his charging experience worse by charging to 100% in OKC.

He doesn't have a charger at home? Yes charging to 100% on Fast chargers sucks. It can take 30+ mins to go from 80% to 100%. I never do this while on road trips.

 

[Zorba]

He doesn't have a charger at home? Yes charging to 100% on Fast chargers sucks. It can take 30+ mins to go from 80% to 100%. I never do this while on road trips.

He charged to 100% at home, but didn't think he had enough to get home so charged to 100% in OKC before heading back to Tulsa (~120 miles). Obviously not what he should've done for time efficiency, but the bigger issue is needing to charge in the middle of a 240 mile trip.

I do plan on telling him about A Better Route Planner.