One year ago on P&N: where were you?

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
I thought it might be interesting to look back at the last year, as presented in P&N. In particular, I think it would be interesting to see how each of your views have changed over the last year. What were you posting a year ago, and how well does it represent your views now? How well have your assumptions held up? How has your response to others here changed?

For each of you who is interested, dig back through the archives of a year ago and find one of your posts that you think accurately reflects your views at the time. Copy it into this thread with your thoughts about it today. Include a link, the title, and the date of your post. How do you feel differently? What have you learned? What hasn't changed?

As always, civil discussion is more interesting and productive than trolls and flames. I know I'm not very good at it, but I will try to ignore the trolls. If we all do this, they should get bored and go away.

If you're already bored, this thread is probably not for you. Some people enjoy looking back. Others don't. YMMV.


Edit: perhaps this is common knowledge, but if you want to find old threads in which you posted, go to Advanced Search, put your handle in the Author field, and select Archived Messages in the "Which messages?" box.
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
To get the ball rolling, here is my first post in P&N, dated 4/10/2003:
Now that the Anit-war people have been proven wrong, what do you think their excuse will be??

I was opposed to the war before, and I remain opposed now. Why did we attack Iraq? A civilized country does not unilaterally invade other nations without extraordinary justification. We did not have it.

Iraq did not present a significant threat to the United States. Iraq was NOT trying to buy nuclear materials in Africa; this report was proven to be a lie, apparently fabricated by the U.S. or Britain. Iraq has no significant ties to Osama bin Laden or Al Qaeda, and no ties whatsoever to September 11 - another deception. If terrorism were truly Bush's concern, we would have gone after Saudi Arabia or Egypt, or any of a dozen other countries with significant ties to 9/11.

Re. weapons of mass distraction, Iraq may or may not still have chemical or biological weapons, but the allegation raises several questions:

1. Where was the proof? Since when do we invade countries based on hearsay? Why didn't we wait for proof from U.N. inspectors or other forms of intelligence? Why the rush?

2. The Iraqi defector who provided most of our intelligence on their chemical and biological weapons also told us that he personally knew that all such weapons were since destroyed (he was the head of their "NBC" program). Why did the Bush administration ignore (and conceal) the part about the destruction while presenting the rest of this defector's information as uncontested "facts"?

3. Where are these alleged weapons? The war is almost over, we have nominal control of most of the country and their largest cities, yet no WMD's have been used or discovered. We have to begin to question whether this whole WMD story was just another lie by the Bush administration.

4. Many countries (including the U.S.) are known to have these weapons; many of these nations are known to supply weapons to terrorist organizations or to countries that are known to provide weapons to terrorists - what made Iraq so special that it justified a unilateral invasion on mere suspicion that it might have weapons and that it might provide them to terrorists? How do we justify this precedent? Can China or Russia legally invade us now because we have WMD's? We are known to provide weapons to groups hostile to those countries.

It's interesting to note that the missing WMD issue was posed to Rumsfeld yesterday. He dodged the question, instead talking about how we are liberating the Iraqi people. For those with reasonable attention spans, remember that the "liberation" excuse is relatively new. It is only the latest of the many stories Bush has tried to use to justify their attack. If this cause is so just, why all the lies? Why does Bush keep shopping for an angle he can sell?

More selfishly, how do we justify the cost of this war? The initital fighting will cost us about 100 Billion dollars. The longer-term occupation and rebuilding will likely cost several hundred billion more. How can the United States afford this cost? More importantly, why was this war so imperative that it justifies burdening our children and grandchildren with our biggest deficit ever?

For all of these reasons, I still believe this war is wrong. The fundamental issue remains that invading another country is an outrageous act that can only be justified in extraordinary circumstances. We are supposed to be a world leader. We are supposed to be a nation of laws and human rights. We are supposed to be a nation that epitomizes the notions of democracy and decency and respect for others. How do we justify ignoring world opinion - breaking world law as it were - and attacking another country without provocation? The fact that we have the military power to do it doesn't make it right. The fact that we're winning doesn't make it right.

Having said that, I am delighted that this was has gone as well as it has, and that casualties have been relatively light. I am delighted that Saddam is removed from power and that he may be dead. There is a special circle in hell for brutal thugs like him. I am sure the Iraqi people will eventually benefit from his removal - assuming of course that the U.S. doesn't end up replacing him with a new, friendlier thug (much as we thought of Saddam himself back in the Reagan days). Nonetheless, the end does NOT justify the means. We attacked Iraq because we could, not because we should. The favorable result is little consolation to the thousands of people we've killed and maimed.

War must be a last resort. Bush used war as a first resort, a happy ruse to distract Americans from his failing war on terrorism (Osama who?), our shattered economy, his administration's ties to financial scandals like Enron and Halliburton, his plans to rape the environment and pay off wealthy supporters with tax cuts and insider deals, Ashcroft's lust to turn this country into a police state, and Bush's general lack of competence. Bush continues to use the war to suppress all criticism of his administration under the smoke screen of patriotism.

In the process, Bush made us an outcast in the world community and has given thousands of new Osamas a single target for their hatred. The war against Iraq was a breeze - the equivalent of a Mike Tyson beating on the crippled kid in the orphanage. I hope it was worth the cost of coming battles with the rest of the world and greater terrorism against Americans. I hope someone will remember to add these costs to the total cost of this war. Most of all, I hope I am wrong.

--------------------

So, to answer your question, that's how this opponent "spins" it. And, contrary to your assertion, I haven't been proven wrong about anything. All of my concerns and objections remain valid. Finally, with all due respect, I find your casual disregard for the human beings killed chilling, in a sense as brutal and soulless as Saddam himself. Each and every human life is precious. To dismiss thousands of individual tragedies as good odds is callous at best. Also for the record, be sure to include a large portion of the Iraqi Army casualties in your count of civilian deaths. Many of them, perhaps most of them were conscripts who were forced to fight for Saddam. They are just as much innocent victims as the women and children killed and maimed hiding in their homes.

Overall, I think my position hasn't wavered much. I was opposed to the invasion from the beginning. I also thought Bush was lying from the very start. I did expect to find some WMDs, and was a little surprised we found absolutely nothing. I did not, however, believe WMDs justified the invasion, even if Bush & Co. had been right. My position was the U.N. inspectors should have been given the time to develop more accurate intel re. Iraq's remaining WMD capabilities.


Anyone else care to add one of their posts from the same period?

 

nutxo

Diamond Member
May 20, 2001
6,834
515
126
Honestly, the way my life is it's hard to remember what I was doing a month ago unless there was a huge event. Kids and work take up most of my time. Thye will start leaving home soon and I'm hopin things start to settle down.

anyways, about this part.

did expect to find some WMDs, and was a little surprised we found absolutely nothing

If 2 planes can kill 3000 people how many could 50 planes kill? I know the definition of wmd is dodgy at best but it seem as though they would have counted for something. If Saddam hid those planes, and they were so hard to find, why do people assume nothing else is there?
 

CaptnKirk

Lifer
Jul 25, 2002
10,053
0
71
That's simple with the search feature - Found Defend America, it's the same now as it was then.

I didn't originate too much, mostly cruised the forum looking at who was posturing how, and for what agenda.
Found a lot of replys and additions to others comments,

Found Alistar-7 was a perpetual motion - serial poster.

I saw through this pile of manure then, and it's just piled higher and deeper now.
Shoveling sh|t against the tide for 3 years.
 

ThePresence

Elite Member
Nov 19, 2001
27,727
16
81
My first post in P&N 3/26/2003

From This Thread:

You know, if these people actually were protesting a war, that's one thing. It'll still be wrong, but I'd begin to understand. It's my contention that most (not all, but most) of these protesters don't have a thought out idea of how to deal with Iraq, as a matter of fact, I don't believe they give a sh|te about Iraq or Iraqi's. I think they just enjoy general mayhem and anarchy. They're looking for a good time. I know that there are many protesters who actually believe in a cause and don't have the attitude that I mentioned, but I think they're in the minority.

I still believe that. :)
 

burnedout

Diamond Member
Oct 12, 1999
6,249
2
0
One year ago on P&N: where were you?
Probably arguing with BOBDN about one thing or another.

At any rate, I wasn't posting in the thread you linked. :p

<edit>
I didn't post on the 11th. However, on the 10th, HOWITIS and I were arguing with conjur about the virtues of a UK education over that from UofL. ;)
</edit>
 

nutxo

Diamond Member
May 20, 2001
6,834
515
126
I remember! I was in the soap box. Im pretty sure that was when it was closed.
 

heartsurgeon

Diamond Member
Aug 18, 2001
4,260
0
0
so far the posts indicate that no body has changed their stated position from one year ago.....i'm shocked!

 

Gaard

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2002
8,911
1
0
This is too funny! A gold star to whoever guesses the author of this quote i found while searching my posts from a year ago...


Why am I not suprised this drivel came from her She is just another one of those people who never accept that they are wrong(or even could possibly be wrong).
 

nutxo

Diamond Member
May 20, 2001
6,834
515
126
Originally posted by: Gaard
This is too funny! A gold star to whoever guesses the author of this quote i found while searching my posts from a year ago...


Why am I not suprised this drivel came from her She is just another one of those people who never accept that they are wrong(or even could possibly be wrong).

ack!

who?

 

magomago

Lifer
Sep 28, 2002
10,973
14
76
I was a lot more conservative on fiscal issues a year ago. I thought the role of the government should be absolutely minimal at best. While I still hold my older views, no longer do I think that the reason people can't pull themselves out of poverty is TOTALLY because they don't have the will to do so because they are just too lazy (Though i'tll be hard for me to accept any arguement using the same kinda arguement on fast food ;) ). I think still it plays a part, but I don't think its the only reason. Another thing that has made me change my views are on healthcare~ before I supported dismantling of Social Security and ending medicare, etc. and now I dont necessarily hold that (Kudos to Moonbeam for changing my views ;) ).

On other issues though, like War I didn't change too much~ though I learned just by reading all these arguements how to argue more effectively :p

I guess being here made me more liberal and taking many political tests I've noticed my Libertarian Nature has begun to shift a lot more to the left ;p
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
I don't have to dig back.

I know I thanked the Mods and Anand for the re-naming of the Iraq War Forum area to the new P&N moniker.

Although Bush had just landed on the Carrier and announced "Mission Accomplished", I thought it was too soon for him to boast that as well as thought it was too soon to change the Forum name but I thanked the Mods for the move especially for getting this and all of the other important issues we face as not just a Country but the world out of the Off Topic area.
 

XZeroII

Lifer
Jun 30, 2001
12,572
0
0
Jessica Lynch issue...

I say she should get a Purple Heart, but probably not the medal of honor. I don't know much about the story, but I think you shoud have to do something really spectacular to get the medal of honor and not just be a tortured prisoner who caught the media's attention.
I still believe this. What ever happened to her? Everyone just forgot about her like the flavor of the month club?
 

Martin

Lifer
Jan 15, 2000
29,178
1
81
right were I am today: lurking about. Though I am glad to see that my original position has been proven right. Sure glad we didn't get invovled in Dubya's little adventure in Iraq.
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
Originally posted by: Gaard
This is too funny! A gold star to whoever guesses the author of this quote i found while searching my posts from a year ago...


Why am I not suprised this drivel came from her She is just another one of those people who never accept that they are wrong(or even could possibly be wrong).
I can guess, based on your amusement. I wouldn't want to divert the thread by arguing with him, however.
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
Originally posted by: heartsurgeon
so far the posts indicate that no body has changed their stated position from one year ago.....i'm shocked!
There are several people here who say their positions have changed in the last year. I'll let them speak for themselves if they choose to. Obviously quite a few more of us are still dug in with our original beliefs. It's also interesting to look at the old threads and see who's dropped out since then -- otherwise known as getting a life I imagine.
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Originally posted by: Gaard
This is too funny! A gold star to whoever guesses the author of this quote i found while searching my posts from a year ago...


Why am I not suprised this drivel came from her She is just another one of those people who never accept that they are wrong(or even could possibly be wrong).
I can guess, based on your amusement. I wouldn't want to divert the thread by arguing with him, however.

rolleye.gif
Shall we review this issue once again? Oh...that's right...you people obviosly have selective reading skills...thanks for playing.

rolleye.gif


CkG
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Originally posted by: Gaard
This is too funny! A gold star to whoever guesses the author of this quote i found while searching my posts from a year ago...

Why am I not suprised this drivel came from her She is just another one of those people who never accept that they are wrong(or even could possibly be wrong).
I can guess, based on your amusement. I wouldn't want to divert the thread by arguing with him, however.

rolleye.gif
Shall we review this issue once again? Oh...that's right...you people obviosly have selective reading skills...thanks for playing. CkG

Speaking of drivel
rolleye.gif