One year ago, anand said the ARM vs x86 war had begun, now?

[tempestglen]

http://www.anandtech.com/show/6536/arm-vs-x86-the-real-showdown
Now, the war is going on obviously, but what's the situation? Why not anand show howbaytrail beat ARM with detailed graph and datasheet just like below:

Because what? Atom not so good as prediction? ^_^

 

[pw257008]

I'm somewhat colorblind, so that chart is doing very little for me

 

[Headfoot]

28 HPm (eg Snapdragon 800/801) really moves the ball forward and probably changes the current leader, as I'm sure Airmont will do once it releases

 

[videogames101]

idk the war hasn't really begun in my eyes because i still don't have a smartphone and a 3570k still isn't fast enough for me

 

[witeken]

http://www.anandtech.com/show/6536/arm-vs-x86-the-real-showdown
Now, the war is going on obviously, but what's the situation? Why not anand show howbaytrail beat ARM with detailed graph and datasheet just like below:


Because what? Atom not so good as prediction? ^_^[/QUOTE]

Because Intel didn't give him the tools to precisely measure power consumption. With slightly less scientific approaches, it's obvious that Silvermont easily beats the competition. By the way, why do you think that Anand wouldn't publish an ARM vs. x86 article if ARM had won?

[quote="pw257008, post: 36252765"]I'm somewhat colorblind, so that chart is doing very little for me[/QUOTE]
You could read the full article. Or here's a decent summary:

[IMG]http://images.anandtech.com/graphs/graph6536/52470.png

Qualcomm's 28nm S4 Plus is only 12% more efficient than 32nm Atom with a 5+ years old microarchitecture. With following design rule and and a shrink to 22nm Tri-Gate, it's easy to predict which CPU is more efficient.

Remember the design rule put in place back with the original Atom: for every 2% increase in performance, the Atom architects could at most increase power by 1%.

 

[ShintaiDK]

What war? ARM havent moved anywhere. Only one ARM server vendor that went belly up.

 

[witeken]

It's a war of performance/watt. In 2012, people though that ARM was some kind of magical ISA that had a much higher efficiency than x86, so Intel wouldn't be able to get anywhere into mobile. Right from the start of 2013, Anand showed that this was a myth, and now Intel has Silvermont, their main problem isn't the CPU anymore but wireless, GPU, BOM.

 

[frozentundra123456]

I really am no fan or ARM/android. In fact I still hate android with a passion, and would love x86 to wipe it off the map. Unfortunately for Intel (and AMD I suppose), they were late to the party and Android/IOS has become firmly entrenched in the phone and tablet space, with thousands and thousands of apps. Personally, I prefer x86 which just works without a bunch of apps, but the majority of people I think dont feel that way anymore. So no matter how good the performance/watt becomes, I think x86 is going to have a very hard time obtaining a significant market share in the tablet and especially the phone area, simply because Android is so firmly entrenched.

 

[witeken]

But Android also runs on x86.

 

[Haserath]

I really am no fan or ARM/android. In fact I still hate android with a passion, and would love x86 to wipe it off the map. Unfortunately for Intel (and AMD I suppose), they were late to the party and Android/IOS has become firmly entrenched in the phone and tablet space, with thousands and thousands of apps. Personally, I prefer x86 which just works without a bunch of apps, but the majority of people I think dont feel that way anymore. So no matter how good the performance/watt becomes, I think x86 is going to have a very hard time obtaining a significant market share in the tablet and especially the phone area, simply because Android is so firmly entrenched.

Why are you talking like Android and x86 are competing OSes.

An 'app' whether it's a Window's .exe or Android app is still a program that does what you want it to do.

x86 and ARM are pretty much interchangeable for Android.

 

[frozentundra123456]

Why are you talking like Android and x86 are competing OSes.

An 'app' whether it's a Window's .exe or Android app is still a program that does what you want it to do.

x86 and ARM are pretty much interchangeable for Android.

The main thing I have against android is that it is not easy to move files around and really control the OS like x86. I have even tried the android file managers, and they seem to me to be basically useless.

As an example of apps, if I want to listen to the local radio station on a computer, I just go to its web site and click the "listen" button. Doesnt work on android, have to download "I heart radio" first, which I dont really want to do, set it up, etc. I guess what I am saying is that Windows has a lot more native functionality than android.

Saying android and x86 are not competing OSs is like saying the Tom Brady and Peyton Manning dont compete against each other because they are both quarterbacks.

 

[tempestglen]

Because Intel didn't give him the tools to precisely measure power consumption. With slightly less scientific approaches, it's obvious that Silvermont easily beats the competition. By the way, why do you think that Anand wouldn't publish an ARM vs. x86 article if ARM had won?


You could read the full article. Or here's a decent summary:

Qualcomm's 28nm S4 Plus is only 12% more efficient than 32nm Atom with a 5+ years old microarchitecture. With following design rule and and a shrink to 22nm Tri-Gate, it's easy to predict which CPU is more efficient.

Can I say that silvermont's out-of-oder offset 32->22nm improvement? Furthermore, saltwell hypothread help Z2580(2c4t@2Ghz) roughly on a par with silvermont 2c2t @1.8Ghz?

Therefore, with same high Mhz around 2Ghz, single core(1c1t) silvermont improves only 10-20% perf/watt compared with single core(1c2t) saltwell. However, TSMC's 28nm HPM improve 30-40% over 28nm LP.

That's why intel would't provide anand precious power measurement tools. LOL

 

[jhu]

The main thing I have against android is that it is not easy to move files around and really control the OS like x86. I have even tried the android file managers, and they seem to me to be basically useless.

As an example of apps, if I want to listen to the local radio station on a computer, I just go to its web site and click the "listen" button. Doesnt work on android, have to download "I heart radio" first, which I dont really want to do, set it up, etc. I guess what I am saying is that Windows has a lot more native functionality than android.

You're not going to get type of functionality on a Windows Phone either.

Saying android and x86 are not competing OSs is like saying the Tom Brady and Peyton Manning dont compete against each other because they are both quarterbacks.

I'm sure I'm not the only one, but WTF are you talking about? Android is an operating system. x86 is an instruction set architecture. Android can be (and has been) compiled to run on x86 processors (see certain Samsung tablets, XOLO smartphone, etc.). x86 cannot run on Android because that makes absolutely no sense. That's like saying I can watch TV on my Game of Thrones (no, it's the other way around: you can watch Game of Thrones on your TV).

BTW, you are correct about the quarterbacks. They don't compete with each other unless they also play defense.

 

[TeknoBug]

Android isn't "desktop" ready yet, I have a media player with Android 4 OS and took it with me on my job site, hooked up keyboard/mouse and monitor via HDMI and it was hideous to use but at least I was still able to surf websites. There's a Linux port for it but it only supports XBMC right now.

 

[crashtech]

That's like saying I can watch TV on my Game of Thrones (no, it's the other way around: you can watch Game of Thrones on your TV).

That made me laugh!

 

[witeken]

Can I say that silvermont's out-of-oder offset 32->22nm improvement? Furthermore, saltwell hypothread help Z2580(2c4t@2Ghz) roughly on a par with silvermont 2c2t @1.8Ghz?

Therefore, with same high Mhz around 2Ghz, single core(1c1t) silvermont improves only 10-20% perf/watt compared with single core(1c2t) saltwell. However, TSMC's 28nm HPM improve 30-40% over 28nm LP.

That's why intel would't provide anand precious power measurement tools. LOL

See the advantage of 28nm HPM over 28nm HPL which is better than 28nm LP.

Only 10-20% more efficient? I don't think so. So instead of making predictions, I decided to search for some facts:

In Sunspider, Atom uses slightly less than 1W, let's say 0.9W. At IDF, Anand measured the power consumption of Z3770 to be 2.5W with all 4 cores at 2.4GHz. You can do the math and see that 1 core at 1.8GHz should consume about 0.45W. So now we need to know how Silvermont (1.84GHz Z3740) compares against Z2760 (Samsung Galaxy Tab 3 10.1):

Atom is 2.4 times faster while consuming half as much power, which means that Silvermont is almost 5x as power efficient. Even if we neglect the 2x efficiency benefit of 22nm Tri-Gate, Silvermont architecture is still more than twice as efficient as Saltwell.

BTW, here's Intel's comparison:

 

[frozentundra123456]

You're not going to get type of functionality on a Windows Phone either.



I'm sure I'm not the only one, but WTF are you talking about? Android is an operating system. x86 is an instruction set architecture. Android can be (and has been) compiled to run on x86 processors (see certain Samsung tablets, XOLO smartphone, etc.). x86 cannot run on Android because that makes absolutely no sense. That's like saying I can watch TV on my Game of Thrones (no, it's the other way around: you can watch Game of Thrones on your TV).

BTW, you are correct about the quarterbacks. They don't compete with each other unless they also play defense.

Technically, I was wording it incorrectly. Obviously I was talking about *Windows* vs Android. When I say x86, I am speaking of running windows, because that is what the vast, vast majority of x86 processors are running. There are very limited instances of x86 capable processors running android, and i dont really understand why one would want to run android on x86, except for the cost savings, and I think MS is making windows much more affordable for low cost devices.

As for Android and Windows competing, all I can say is, would not microsoft be extremely happy if for some reason Android ceased to exist and all devices had to run on windows?

Edit: Anyway, back on topic, point is no matter how superior atom or any other x86 processor may become, the biggest impediment to their adoption IMO is not technical, but simply competing against the ARM/Android ecosystem.

 

[NTMBK]

If Bay Trail were really so wonderful, we would see it absolutely flooding the market. But even with Intel's massive "contra-revenue" subsidies it's still massively outnumbered by ARM rivals. And Merrifield is completely missing in action.

 

[kimmel]

Edit: Anyway, back on topic, point is no matter how superior atom or any other x86 processor may become, the biggest impediment to their adoption IMO is not technical, but simply competing against the ARM/Android ecosystem.

It is technical. No LTE no sell. Crappy graphics no sell. Your core is just a tiny piece of the technical puzzle. Intel isn't really competing with Android or ARM. They are competing with Qualcomm, Mediatek and Apple, etc... big difference.

 

[tviceman]

The one and only reason x86 is in the picture is because of Intel's fab investments. If TSMC or Samsung were on the same process fabrication, x86 would literally be laughed at as being a viable mobile solution. That said, it's not equal footing and Intel has a massive R&D budget, so they can and do compete. Even though, Intel has not been successful making a meaningful penetration into the mobile market yet.

CPU performance isn't the whole story in mobile, though. GPU is every bit as important, IMO. And with A7 dominating everything GPU related, and TK1 on the market soon with better performance, even if Intel wins in straight up CPU perf/watt, they still lag considerably in GPU performance.

 

[witeken]

If Bay Trail were really so wonderful, we would see it absolutely flooding the market. But even with Intel's massive "contra-revenue" subsidies it's still massively outnumbered by ARM rivals. And Merrifield is completely missing in action.

Intel's new in this market. And of course, the competition's performance/watt has also improved since Krait 200, so Silvermont isn't 5 times as fast anymore (which it could have been if it was released at the same time as Ivy Bridge). But I don't understand why you're referring to the number of design wins of Silvermont while we're talking about performance and power consumption. You can't just reject my post by saying you can't buy it; that's a fallacy.

The one and only reason x86 is in the picture is because of Intel's fab investments. If TSMC or Samsung were on the same process fabrication, x86 would literally be laughed at as being a viable mobile solution. That said, it's not equal footing and Intel has a massive R&D budget, so they can and do compete. Even though, Intel has not been successful making a meaningful penetration into the mobile market yet.

Laughed at, why? Intel could still be competing against ARM, but the lead won't be as impressive as it's now. By the way, ISA doesn't really matter, and certainly isn't an advantage for ARM.

CPU performance isn't the whole story in mobile, though. GPU is every bit as important, IMO. And with A7 dominating everything GPU related, and TK1 on the market soon with better performance, even if Intel wins in straight up CPU perf/watt, they still lag considerably in GPU performance.

I don't know if there are really any games that require 1 SMX worth of shader performance, so I don't think performance between Adreno 320 and 330 is that bad.

 

[VirtualLarry]

http://www.anandtech.com/show/6536/arm-vs-x86-the-real-showdown
Now, the war is going on obviously, but what's the situation? Why not anand show howbaytrail beat ARM with detailed graph and datasheet just like below:

Because what? Atom not so good as prediction? ^_^

Just so you know, Intel had a hand in that benchmark. Make of that what you will.

 

[senseamp]

I am no businessman, but something tells me that contra-revenue is not a good sign of the value you are delivering. If I was paying my employer contra-salary for working there, I would not feel good about it.

 

[crashtech]

Contra-salary is like an unpaid internship. It doesn't signify anything about value in the long-term sense, but it definitely shows there is something to prove.

 

[senseamp]

In tech, we usually pay our interns
The main issue for Intel is how they are going to claw back that contra-revenue back without a monopoly like they have in Windows. In Android, Intel doesn't get to choose its competition. Intel investors like monopoly margins, hence the contra-revenue. They have to give kickbacks to their customers to offset the high gross margins they like to show to investors.