One in four New Yorkers get free health care from Medicaid. Outrageous!

[ShawnD1]

I could go on and on about Walmart. The impact they have in the United States is enormously negative overall.

Don't hate the player; hate the game. Walmart is just doing what the rules allow them to do. They are not forced to pay out health insurance, so they don't. They are not forced to pay good wages, so they don't. All they do is help their employees better understand how the government is there to help them. It effectively raises the standard of living for all Walmart employees at no cost to the company.


Real jobs do this as well. I'm a drafter for an engineering firm, and the company gave me a whole shit load of papers about taxation, pension, and tax-deferred investments. The package gives a very detailed explanation of how stock investing works, how bond investing works, how to invest my pension properly, how much extra money I make if I invest with pre-tax dollars instead of post-tax dollars. They included information about how the government pays out pension, and how to "split" my income to reduce taxes. Walmart helps their employees access government programs to help them, and my company helps employees pay as little tax as possible.

 

[Acanthus]

Don't hate the player; hate the game. Walmart is just doing what the rules allow them to do. They are not forced to pay out health insurance, so they don't. They are not forced to pay good wages, so they don't. All they do is help their employees better understand how the government is there to help them. It effectively raises the standard of living for all Walmart employees at no cost to the company.


Real jobs do this as well. I'm a drafter for an engineering firm, and the company gave me a whole shit load of papers about taxation, pension, and tax-deferred investments. The package gives a very detailed explanation of how stock investing works, how bond investing works, how to invest my pension properly, how much extra money I make if I invest with pre-tax dollars instead of post-tax dollars. They included information about how the government pays out pension, and how to "split" my income to reduce taxes. Walmart helps their employees access government programs to help them, and my company helps employees pay as little tax as possible.

The problem with "the game" in the US is that one group holds the whole deck and plays whatever cards they like. Because they give the dealer a cut of the winnings.

The system will never be changed to a state where things will be fair, the players have destroyed the game...

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

The problem with "the game" in the US is that one group holds the whole deck and plays whatever cards they like. Because they give the dealer a cut of the winnings.

The system will never be changed to a state where things will be fair, the players have destroyed the game...

That's what happens when the game used to be fixed to your advantage and others learned from you.

You could institute communism and it wouldn't really help matters, in fact, haven't you already instituted corporate communism to protect your farmers and industry, didn't you do that in 94 and it's been ongoing since then?

It sure hurts, not that the UK has been any different in that regard during Blair, pretty much the same actually.

You are actually in a similar situation as the Greeks are in but you fail to acknowledge it so you keep going, it's brave but it will end in disaster.

If i was King of the US right now, i'd focus on reigning in spending and raising taxes to get it under control, after that i'd be very careful about things, i might consider tax reductions for industries and jobs that while making sure to actually get the unemployed employed.

In the UK you don't get one year of unemployment benefits without looking for another job and you don't get welfare without showing that you are actively seeking employment, you have to be active to get one pence.

In the US, as i understand it, you don't have to do sheit, you can just sit at home and collect it?

 

[Siddhartha]

never mind

 

[CycloWizard]

That's a huge post PeshakJang,

I do think forced exercise programs like we see in North Korea, are good for people.

-John

Please, by all means, feel free to go take part in theirs.

 

[CycloWizard]

Don't hate the player; hate the game. Walmart is just doing what the rules allow them to do. They are not forced to pay out health insurance, so they don't. They are not forced to pay good wages, so they don't. All they do is help their employees better understand how the government is there to help them. It effectively raises the standard of living for all Walmart employees at no cost to the company.


Real jobs do this as well. I'm a drafter for an engineering firm, and the company gave me a whole shit load of papers about taxation, pension, and tax-deferred investments. The package gives a very detailed explanation of how stock investing works, how bond investing works, how to invest my pension properly, how much extra money I make if I invest with pre-tax dollars instead of post-tax dollars. They included information about how the government pays out pension, and how to "split" my income to reduce taxes. Walmart helps their employees access government programs to help them, and my company helps employees pay as little tax as possible.

*facepalm* What do you think the $5.3 billion in federal taxes paid by Walmart in a given year pays for? I already showed in this thread that it covers their bill for the services their employees use. Are they supposed to pay twice and buy them all private insurance as well? If you want them to provide private insurance, then maybe you should give them a tax break for doing so rather than simply yelling at them for paying for the public program and then using it.

 

[ProfJohn]

I could go on and on about Walmart. The impact they have in the United States is enormously negative overall.

Prior to Walmart where did people buy their stuff at?

Do you think all those small time mom and pop stores provided healthcare or paid high wages?

There are numerous studies that show that Walmart has improved the quality of life and the standard of living for millions of Americans. By operating supper efficiently and with minimal profit margin they allow the working poor to get FAR more for their dollar today than they did 20 years ago.

 

[Jhhnn]

*facepalm* What do you think the $5.3 billion in federal taxes paid by Walmart in a given year pays for? I already showed in this thread that it covers their bill for the services their employees use. Are they supposed to pay twice and buy them all private insurance as well? If you want them to provide private insurance, then maybe you should give them a tax break for doing so rather than simply yelling at them for paying for the public program and then using it.

So what happens if everybody does that? What sort of govt would we have? How would we pay for the vast infrastructure that brings WalMart's goods and customers to their store, protects their supply lines from foreign govts? Insures that the products they sell are safe? So forth and so on? The tooth fairy?

As usual, Righties prove themselves to be utter fools, cheering for the parasitic forces that are slowly engulfing their own lifestyles, the parasitism of the wealthy and the transfer of federal funds to states where the populations are real suckers for rightwing jive. Maybe New Yorkers deserve the medicare/medicaid funds they're getting- even with that, they still only receive ~$.79 for every $1.00 they pay in federal taxes. Much of the rest goes to support the lifestyles of Red State residents, who think it's their God-given right to bite the hand that feeds 'em...

 

[IronWing]

Prior to Walmart where did people buy their stuff at?

Do you think all those small time mom and pop stores provided healthcare or paid high wages?

There are numerous studies that show that Walmart has improved the quality of life and the standard of living for millions of Americans. By operating supper efficiently and with minimal profit margin they allow the working poor to get FAR more for their dollar today than they did 20 years ago.

And there are now more working poor to take advantage of that efficiency thanks to Walmart squeezing its suppliers to move manufacturing jobs overseas.

 

[CycloWizard]

So what happens if everybody does that? What sort of govt would we have? How would we pay for the vast infrastructure that brings WalMart's goods and customers to their store, protects their supply lines from foreign govts? Insures that the products they sell are safe? So forth and so on? The tooth fairy?

As usual, Righties prove themselves to be utter fools, cheering for the parasitic forces that are slowly engulfing their own lifestyles, the parasitism of the wealthy and the transfer of federal funds to states where the populations are real suckers for rightwing jive. Maybe New Yorkers deserve the medicare/medicaid funds they're getting- even with that, they still only receive ~$.79 for every $1.00 they pay in federal taxes. Much of the rest goes to support the lifestyles of Red State residents, who think it's their God-given right to bite the hand that feeds 'em...

If you were literate, you'd see that the taxes they pay cover all of the benefits for their employees in addition to another $3.8 billion. I'm pretty sure that covers a few things, as it's more than any other company pays in federal taxes in a given year. How can you claim to want a government which functions in this manner, then turn around and get pissed off when it does what you want? Red states play by the rules you made, then you turn around and whine about it. At this point I can only assume you get off on a self-righteous kick because you think you're better than them because you use government to take your own money and give it to them. That's self-hate. Where's Moonbeam to point that out?

 

[Hacp]

And there are now more working poor to take advantage of that efficiency thanks to Walmart squeezing its suppliers to move manufacturing jobs overseas.

Theres a reason manufacturing jobs are going overseas. It costs too much money to hire American workers? Why? Unions,taxes and regulation. When it costs 40k a year to get a janitor, plus you need to pay for his potential unemployment, social security, and health care, no one will want to do business in the US. Don't forget minimum wage laws that have ruined small businesses. We need change! We can do this. Lower taxes, less regulation, more freedom!

 

[Acanthus]

That's what happens when the game used to be fixed to your advantage and others learned from you.

You could institute communism and it wouldn't really help matters, in fact, haven't you already instituted corporate communism to protect your farmers and industry, didn't you do that in 94 and it's been ongoing since then?

It sure hurts, not that the UK has been any different in that regard during Blair, pretty much the same actually.

You are actually in a similar situation as the Greeks are in but you fail to acknowledge it so you keep going, it's brave but it will end in disaster.

If i was King of the US right now, i'd focus on reigning in spending and raising taxes to get it under control, after that i'd be very careful about things, i might consider tax reductions for industries and jobs that while making sure to actually get the unemployed employed.

In the UK you don't get one year of unemployment benefits without looking for another job and you don't get welfare without showing that you are actively seeking employment, you have to be active to get one pence.

In the US, as i understand it, you don't have to do sheit, you can just sit at home and collect it?

You do have to be able to prove that you have applied for jobs in order to continue receiving unemployment.

We are a very different economy and nation from Greece.

The main source of unemployment in the United States is outsourcing. Conservative estimates put the figure at 8 million jobs and counting now in 3rd world nations.

Tariff the countries that don't pay a living wage and watch the situation improve. It will never happen, so we will never know for sure.

Hit up your local library and look at Ravi Batras "The Myth of Free Trade" he points out on a nation by nation basis the impact of imports, currency manipulation, and other issues.

There is no 1st world nation on EARTH that has benefited from free trade policies in the long term. Quality of goods falls, employment falls, wages and benefits fall, the only thing that doesn't fall is the price of goods.

It is state sanctioned pillaging of its own riches.

I wont even get into how we are pretty much handing China all of our IP.

 

[ShawnD1]

In the UK you don't get one year of unemployment benefits without looking for another job and you don't get welfare without showing that you are actively seeking employment, you have to be active to get one pence.

In the US, as i understand it, you don't have to do sheit, you can just sit at home and collect it?

What about those piece of shit chavs in the UK? Aren't most of them unemployed hooligans on the government tit?

Prior to Walmart where did people buy their stuff at?

Do you think all those small time mom and pop stores provided healthcare or paid high wages?

Agreed! When libs bitch about pay going down due to Walmart, what they are really talking about is the owner of the mom and pop store. That's just 1 dude. All of the other people working at the store were already getting minimum wage, so Walmart doesn't change any of that for them.

And there are now more working poor to take advantage of that efficiency thanks to Walmart squeezing its suppliers to move manufacturing jobs overseas.

That isn't Walmart's fault either. If you want manufacturing to stay in the US, you should tax imports so they are slightly more expensive than domestic products. Right now there's mostly free trade going on, so don't bitch at Walmart for taking advantage of the laws that people voted for. When a guy like Bush says he supports free trade, that's exactly what he's saying. Move the factory to China in order to lower the price of goods; that's the whole point of free trade!

There is no 1st world nation on EARTH that has benefited from free trade policies in the long term. Quality of goods falls, employment falls, wages and benefits fall, the only thing that doesn't fall is the price of goods.

Are you sure the price doesn't fall? Stuff at Walmart is ridiculously cheap. I won't talk about anything modern, but what about a simple blender? You can get a low quality blender at Walmart for maybe $40, or about 4 hours of working at McDonalds if you want to think of it in those terms. Back in the 1960s or whatever, do you think you could buy an American or a German blender after working 4 hours at McDonalds or 4 hours of being a janitor? Gosh no. It was way more expensive than that, even though it's basically the same blender. It's just a motor with some blades on it; it's the same technology as 100 years ago.

 

[Acanthus]

Theres a reason manufacturing jobs are going overseas. It costs too much money to hire American workers? Why? Unions,taxes and regulation. When it costs 40k a year to get a janitor, plus you need to pay for his potential unemployment, social security, and health care, no one will want to do business in the US. Don't forget minimum wage laws that have ruined small businesses. We need change! We can do this. Lower taxes, less regulation, more freedom!

You don't even have a basic understanding of economics.

 

[Acanthus]

Prior to Walmart where did people buy their stuff at?

Do you think all those small time mom and pop stores provided healthcare or paid high wages?

There are numerous studies that show that Walmart has improved the quality of life and the standard of living for millions of Americans. By operating supper efficiently and with minimal profit margin they allow the working poor to get FAR more for their dollar today than they did 20 years ago.

In what world do you live in? Every time you replace a manufacturing job with a lower paying service job you hurt the economy.

Do this 8 million times and you have today.

Do this 15 million times and you have 5 years from now...

They are trying you outsource drive-thrus for fucks sake.

 

[Acanthus]

What about those piece of shit chavs in the UK? Aren't most of them unemployed hooligans on the government tit?



Agreed! When libs bitch about pay going down due to Walmart, what they are really talking about is the owner of the mom and pop store. That's just 1 dude. All of the other people working at the store were already getting minimum wage, so Walmart doesn't change any of that for them.



That isn't Walmart's fault either. If you want manufacturing to stay in the US, you should tax imports so they are slightly more expensive than domestic products. Right now there's mostly free trade going on, so don't bitch at Walmart for taking advantage of the laws that people voted for. When a guy like Bush says he supports free trade, that's exactly what he's saying. Move the factory to China in order to lower the price of goods; that's the whole point of free trade!



Are you sure the price doesn't fall? Stuff at Walmart is ridiculously cheap. I won't talk about anything modern, but what about a simple blender? You can get a low quality blender at Walmart for maybe $40, or about 4 hours of working at McDonalds if you want to think of it in those terms. Back in the 1960s or whatever, do you think you could buy an American or a German blender after working 4 hours at McDonalds or 4 hours of being a janitor? Hello no. It was way more expensive than that, even though it's basically the same blender. It's just a motor with some blades on it; it's the same technology as 100 years ago.

So killing off 30 small businesses and replacing them with ~8 employees who make more than $35k a year is somehow a net push? That math doesn't work even at a glance.

Look at the CPI numbers, when have they fallen? The rise of Walmart has not even dinged ASPs while costs have fallen dramatically. The average walmart profits $55m per superstore.

http://www.bls.gov/cpi/cpid1008.pdf page 5.

 

[Jhhnn]

If you were literate, you'd see that the taxes they pay cover all of the benefits for their employees in addition to another $3.8 billion. I'm pretty sure that covers a few things, as it's more than any other company pays in federal taxes in a given year. How can you claim to want a government which functions in this manner, then turn around and get pissed off when it does what you want? Red states play by the rules you made, then you turn around and whine about it. At this point I can only assume you get off on a self-righteous kick because you think you're better than them because you use government to take your own money and give it to them. That's self-hate. Where's Moonbeam to point that out?

Heh. More lameness and obfuscation. I didn't make the rules- unequal representation in the Senate seems to make the rules, with low population red states being the obvious beneficiaries. No, I don't think they should be left to stew in their own backwardness, but it'd be nice if their voters weren't so easily duped by repubs' emotional pitching machine, recognized that they benefit more than anybody else from the fed's largesse.

So, uhh, how much more does Walmart wring out of the system in EITC benefits for its employees? State and local tax breaks for building big boxes they'll abandon in a few years? Renting stores to itself at a profit to avoid state taxes? Holding the vast majority of workers to part-time so as to avoid paying various state levies on full time workers?

How about the way they and their fellow travelers have waded into various issues like healthcare in an attempt to make the rules rather than just live by them? After all, their competitors will live by the same rules, so they lose no corporate advantage when the rules change...

The sad truth is that more and more people will be eligible for medicaid as the economic situation worsens, so, uhh, maybe that magical trickledown jobs machine needs to quit hoarding their cash and put it to work. probably not, given that they're now speaking out of the other side of their mouths, claiming that they need to wait for demand to pick up, seamlessly denying their own supply side economic theories entirely. Hard to notice through all the cheering and obfuscation from their fanbois, however...

 

[ShawnD1]

So killing off 30 small businesses and replacing them with ~8 employees who make more than $35k a year is somehow a net push? That math doesn't work even at a glance.

Those are terrible estimates. When Walmart moves in, they displace probably about 5 businesses, not 30. They replace the local food store, general goods, hardware, drug store, and maybe something else. My dad is from a small town and we would go there every year for vacation; that town doesn't have a walmart, but it doesn't have much else either. When people in bumfuck nowhere go shopping, they drive 50 miles to a nearby city. Because that city has a much larger population, it has much larger stores and lower prices.

One thing I thought was interesting about the Penn & Teller episode about Walmart was how Penn has the same basic story. He visited his hometown of Greenfield, Massachusetts which doesn't have a Walmart, and it too had no other stores. People don't shop at mom and pop stores. They will drive to the nearest city that has huge stores because it saves a lot of money.

 

[Acanthus]

Those are terrible estimates. When Walmart moves in, they displace probably about 5 businesses, not 30. They replace the local food store, general goods, hardware, drug store, and maybe something else. My dad is from a small town and we would go there every year for vacation; that town doesn't have a walmart, but it doesn't have much else either. When people in bumfuck nowhere go shopping, they drive 50 miles to a nearby city. Because that city has a much larger population, it has much larger stores and lower prices.

One thing I thought was interesting about the Penn & Teller episode about Walmart was how Penn has the same basic story. He visited his hometown of Greenfield, Massachusetts which doesn't have a Walmart, and it too had no other stores. People don't shop at mom and pop stores. They will drive to the nearest city that has huge stores because it saves a lot of money.

If what you were saying was true, again, CPIs would have fallen due to those inefficient small businesses going out of business and everyone shopping at the "cheap big boxes" this just isn't the case.

 

[CycloWizard]

Heh. More lameness and obfuscation. I didn't make the rules- unequal representation in the Senate seems to make the rules, with low population red states being the obvious beneficiaries. No, I don't think they should be left to stew in their own backwardness, but it'd be nice if their voters weren't so easily duped by repubs' emotional pitching machine, recognized that they benefit more than anybody else from the fed's largesse.

Then why don't you take them up on their offer to shrink the government? Instead, you want to be self-righteous and blame them for playing the system that you so desired. Fail.

So, uhh, how much more does Walmart wring out of the system in EITC benefits for its employees? State and local tax breaks for building big boxes they'll abandon in a few years? Renting stores to itself at a profit to avoid state taxes? Holding the vast majority of workers to part-time so as to avoid paying various state levies on full time workers?

Don't know, don't care. It's not Walmart's fault that government is corrupt and will do its bidding. Who is the idiot mayor who gives Walmart a three-year tax abatement to build in the city, then is up in arms when it moves beyond the city three years later? Who is the idiot that writes a tax code so absurd that it allows all of these loopholes? Government makes the rules of the game, then you blame Walmart for following those rules. Maybe you should blame government for making ridiculous rules, but that would require a bit of intellectual honesty and owning up to the fact that government pretty much sucks at writing the rulebook.

How about the way they and their fellow travelers have waded into various issues like healthcare in an attempt to make the rules rather than just live by them? After all, their competitors will live by the same rules, so they lose no corporate advantage when the rules change...

Who gets to make the rules then, and who is expected to just shut up and live with them? I thought the point of our system of government is that everyone had a say in how the rules were formulated. I guess that's just a myth, as only those who agree with you on what the rules should be should be given a say, and those who oppose you should just shut up and live with it.

The sad truth is that more and more people will be eligible for medicaid as the economic situation worsens, so, uhh, maybe that magical trickledown jobs machine needs to quit hoarding their cash and put it to work. probably not, given that they're now speaking out of the other side of their mouths, claiming that they need to wait for demand to pick up, seamlessly denying their own supply side economic theories entirely. Hard to notice through all the cheering and obfuscation from their fanbois, however...

If they knew the sun would come up tomorrow, they would invest the money. They gain nothing by holding on to it, but will potentially lose considerably if they invest it and the rules of the game change again.

 

[marvdmartian]

Now how many of those people on medicaid are seniors in nursing homes? For most, the only way they can afford the $4000+/month nursing home bill is to go on medicaid, to supplement the difference between their income and what the nursing home charges per month.

And guess what? The number is only going to increase, as the baby boomers reach advanced age, and start populating the nursing homes.

 

[her209]

Now how many of those people on medicaid are seniors in nursing homes? For most, the only way they can afford the $4000+/month nursing home bill is to go on medicaid, to supplement the difference between their income and what the nursing home charges per month.

And guess what? The number is only going to increase, as the baby boomers reach advanced age, and start populating the nursing homes.

Are you confusing Medicaid with Medicare?

 

[ShawnD1]

If what you were saying was true, again, CPIs would have fallen due to those inefficient small businesses going out of business and everyone shopping at the "cheap big boxes" this just isn't the case.

When are you looking for this data? Walmart and big stores are not a new thing. It's been like this for 50+ years.

 

[Acanthus]

When are you looking for this data? Walmart and big stores are not a new thing. It's been like this for 50+ years.

1950-current.