Once and for all, having elected representatives is a "democracy"

Status
Not open for further replies.

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
I've lost count of the number of times I've seen people say that a government is not a democracy if it's not a 'direct democracy', if it has elected representatives.

And I'm tired of repeating the post correcting that, so just making the point here, clearly, to try pre-empty more such posts, after I saw it again today.

Democracy is a broad word. It includes various types of systems, and is often qualified to specify one form or another.

'Direct' Democracy is one form, which has never existed for any large nation, which has the citizens more directly voting on the laws/policies.

'Representative' Democracy - like the US - has elected representatives. It's also called a republic - but a republic is a form of democracy, and the most common form.

The phrase 'we're not a democracy, we're a republic' is wrong. It's like saying 'we don't have an elected leader, we have a President'. A President is one type of elected leader.

Every President, each of whom have described the US as a democracy, has not been wrong. Sometimes, they also refer to the US as a republic. Again not wrong.

So, a democracy is not at odds with a republic. Forms of government that ARE at odds with democracy include strong monarchies, and dictatorships.

Some democracy can exist even within those systems - such as the weak parliament that began in England - but they are generally not democracies. On the other hand, when the people's votes are more powerful - as in England today, despite it still having a monarchy - it is a democracy.

Here are a few dictionary definitions, my bolding added:

The first result from google:

de·moc·ra·cy/diˈmäkrəsē/Noun
1. A system of government by the whole population or all the eligible members of a state, typically through elected representatives.

dictionary.com:

dictionary.com
1.
government by the people; a form of government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised directly by them or by their elected agents under a free electoral system.
2.
a state having such a form of government: The United States and canada are democracies.

Lastly, Wikipedia summarizes the various forms of democracy:

Democracy has taken a number of forms, both in theory and practice. The following kinds are not exclusive of one another: many specify details of aspects that are independent of one another and can co-exist in a single system.
Political ratings of countries according to Freedom House’s Freedom in the World survey, 2009:
Free
Partly Free
Not Free
Countries highlighted in blue are designated "electoral democracies" in Freedom House's 2010 survey Freedom in the World
Representative
Main article: Representative democracy

Representative democracy involves the selection of government officials by the people being represented. If the head of state is also democratically elected then it is called a democratic republic.[57] The most common mechanisms involve election of the candidate with a majority or a plurality of the votes.

Representatives may be elected or become diplomatic representatives by a particular district (or constituency), or represent the entire electorate proportionally proportional systems, with some using a combination of the two. Some representative democracies also incorporate elements of direct democracy, such as referendums. A characteristic of representative democracy is that while the representatives are elected by the people to act in their interest, they retain the freedom to exercise their own judgment as how best to do so.
Parliamentary
Main article: Parliamentary system

Parliamentary democracy is a representative democracy where government is appointed by parliamentary representatives as opposed to a 'presidential rule' wherein the President is both head of state and the head of government and is elected by the voters. Under a parliamentary democracy, government is exercised by delegation to an executive ministry and subject to ongoing review, checks and balances by the legislative parliament elected by the people.[58][59][60][61][62][63][64][65]
Liberal

A Liberal democracy is a representative democracy in which the ability of the elected representatives to exercise decision-making power is subject to the rule of law, and usually moderated by a constitution that emphasizes the protection of the rights and freedoms of individuals, and which places constraints on the leaders and on the extent to which the will of the majority can be exercised against the rights of minorities (see civil liberties). In a liberal democracy, it is possible for some large-scale decisions to emerge from the many individual decisions that citizens are free to make. In other words, citizens can "vote with their feet" or "vote with their dollars", resulting in significant informal government-by-the-masses that exercises many "powers" associated with formal government elsewhere.
Constitutional

See: Constitutional democracy

Direct
Main article: Direct democracy

Direct democracy is a political system where the citizens participate in the decision-making personally, contrary to relying on intermediaries or representatives. The supporters of direct democracy argue that democracy is more than merely a procedural issue. A direct democracy gives the voting population the power to:

1. Change constitutional laws,
2. Put forth initiatives, referendums and suggestions for laws,
3. Give binding orders to elective officials, such as revoking them before the end of their elected term, or initiating a lawsuit for breaking a campaign promise.

Of the three measures mentioned, most operate in developed democracies today. This is part of a gradual shift towards direct democracies. Examples of this include the extensive use of referendums in California with more than 20 million voters, and (i.e., voting).[66] in Switzerland, where five million voters decide on national referendums and initiatives two to four times a year; direct democratic instruments are also well established at the cantonal and communal level. Vermont towns have been known for their yearly town meetings, held every March to decide on local issues. No direct democracy is in existence outside the framework of a different overarching form of government. Most direct democracies to date have been weak forms, relatively small communities, usually city-states. The world is yet to see a large, fundamental, working example of direct democracy as of yet, with most examples being small and weak forms.

See: List of direct democracy parties

Inclusive democracy
Main article: Inclusive Democracy

Inclusive democracy is a political theory and political project that aims for direct democracy in all fields of social life: political democracy in the form of face-to-face assemblies which are confederated, economic democracy in a stateless, moneyless and marketless economy, democracy in the social realm, i.e.self-management in places of work and education, and ecological democracy which aims to reintegrate society and nature. The theoretical project of inclusive democracy emerged from the work of political philosopher Takis Fotopoulos in "Towards An Inclusive Democracy" and was further developed in the journal Democracy & Nature' and its successor The International Journal of Inclusive Democracy.

The basic unit of decision making in an inclusive democracy is the demotic assembly, i.e. the assembly of demos, the citizen body in a given geographical area which may encompass a town and the surrounding villages, or even neighbourhoods of large cities. An inclusive democracy today can only take the form of a confederal democracy that is based on a network of administrative councils whose members or delegates are elected from popular face-to-face democratic assemblies in the various demoi. Thus, their role is purely administrative and practical, not one of policy-making like that of representatives in representative democracy.The citizen body is advised by experts but it is the citizen body which functions as the ultimate decision-taker . Authority can be delegated to a segment of the citizen body to carry out specific duties, for example to serve as members of popular courts, or of regional and confederal councils. Such delegation is made, in principle, by lot, on a rotation basis, and is always recallable by the citizen body. Delegates to regional and confederal bodies should have specific mandates.
Participatory
Main article: Participatory politics

A Parpolity or Participatory Polity is a theoretical form of democracy that is ruled by a Nested Council structure. The guiding philosophy is that people should have decision making power in proportion to how much they are affected by the decision. Local councils of 25–50 people are completely autonomous on issues that affect only them, and these councils send delegates to higher level councils who are again autonomous regarding issues that affect only the population affected by that council.

A council court of randomly chosen citizens serves as a check on the tyranny of the majority, and rules on which body gets to vote on which issue. Delegates can vote differently than their sending council might wish, but are mandated to communicate the wishes of their sending council. Delegates are recallable at any time. Referendums are possible at any time via votes of the majority of lower level councils, however, not everything is a referendum as this is most likely a waste of time. A parpolity is meant to work in tandem with a participatory economy.
Socialist

"Democracy cannot consist solely of elections that are nearly always fictitious and managed by rich landowners and professional politicians."
— Che Guevara, Marxist revolutionary[67]

Socialist thought has several different views on democracy. Social democracy, democratic socialism, and the dictatorship of the proletariat (usually exercised through Soviet democracy) are some examples. Many democratic socialists and social democrats believe in a form of participatory democracy and workplace democracy combined with a representative democracy.

Within Marxist orthodoxy there is a hostility to what is commonly called "liberal democracy", which they simply refer to as parliamentary democracy because of its often centralized nature. Because of their desire to eliminate the political elitism they see in capitalism, Marxists, Leninists and Trotskyists believe in direct democracy implemented though a system of communes (which are sometimes called soviets). This system ultimately manifests itself as council democracy and begins with workplace democracy. (See Democracy in Marxism)
Anarchist

Anarchists are split in this domain, depending on whether they believe that a majority-rule is tyrannic or not. The only form of democracy considered acceptable to many anarchists is direct democracy. Pierre-Joseph Proudhon argued that the only acceptable form of direct democracy is one in which it is recognized that majority decisions are not binding on the minority, even when unanimous.[68] However, anarcho-communist Murray Bookchin criticized individualist anarchists for opposing democracy,[69] and says "majority rule" is consistent with anarchism.[70]

Some anarcho-communists oppose the majoritarian nature of direct democracy, feeling that it can impede individual liberty and opt in favour of a non-majoritarian form of consensus democracy, similar to Proudhon's position on direct democracy.[71] Henry David Thoreau, who did not self-identify as an anarchist but argued for "a better government"[72] and is cited as an inspiration by some anarchists, argued that people should not be in the position of ruling others or being ruled when there is no consent.
Iroquois

Iroquois society had a form of participatory democracy and representative democracy.[73] Elizabeth Tooker, a Temple University professor of anthropology and an authority on the culture and history of the Northern Iroquois, has reviewed the claim that the Iroquois inspired the American Confederation and concluded they are myth rather than fact. The relationship between the Iroquois League and the Constitution is based on a portion of a letter written by Benjamin Franklin and a speech by the Iroquois chief Canasatego in 1744. Tooker concluded that the documents only indicate that some groups of Iroquois and white settlers realized the advantages of uniting against a common enemy, and that ultimately there is little evidence to support the idea that 18th century colonists were knowledgeable regarding the Iroquois system of governance. What little evidence there is regarding this system indicates chiefs of different tribes were permitted representation in the Iroquois League council, and this ability to represent the tribe was hereditary. The council itself did not practice representative government, and there were no elections; deceased chiefs' successors were selected by the most senior woman within the hereditary lineage, in consultation with other women in the clan. Decision making occurred through lengthy discussion and decisions were unanimous, with topics discussed being introduced by a single tribe. Tooker concludes that "...there is virtually no evidence that the framers [of the Constitution] borrowed from the Iroquois" and that the myth that this was the case is the result of exaggerations and misunderstandings of a claim made by Iroquois linguist and ethnographer J.N.B. Hewitt after his death in 1937.[74]
Sortition
Main article: Sortition

Sometimes called "democracy without elections", sortition is the process of choosing decision makers via a random process. The intention is that those chosen will be representative of the opinions and interests of the people at large, and be more fair and impartial than an elected official. The technique was in widespread use in Athenian Democracy and is still used in modern jury selection.
Consensus
Main article: Consensus democracy

Consensus democracy requires varying degrees of consensus rather than just a mere democratic majority. It typically attempts to protect minority rights from domination by majority rule.
Supranational

Qualified majority voting (QMV) is designed by the Treaty of Rome to be the principal method of reaching decisions in the European Council of Ministers. This system allocates votes to member states in part according to their population, but heavily weighted in favour of the smaller states. This might be seen as a form of representative democracy, but representatives to the Council might be appointed rather than directly elected.

Some might consider the "individuals" being democratically represented to be states rather than people, as with many other international organizations. European Parliament members are democratically directly elected on the basis of universal suffrage, may be seen as an example of a supranational democratic institution.
Cosmopolitan
Main article: Cosmopolitan democracy

Democracy is not only a political system… It is an ideal, an aspiration, really, intimately connected to and dependent upon a picture of what it is to be human—of what it is a human should be to be fully human.
— Nikolas Kompridis[75]

Cosmopolitan democracy, also known as Global democracy or World Federalism, is a political system in which democracy is implemented on a global scale, either directly or through representatives. An important justification for this kind of system is that the decisions made in national or regional democracies often affect people outside the constituency who, by definition, cannot vote. By contrast, in a cosmopolitan democracy, the people who are affected by decisions also have a say in them.[76]According to its supporters, any attempt to solve global problems is undemocratic without some form of cosmopolitan democracy. The general principle of cosmopolitan democracy is to expand some or all of the values and norms of democracy, including the rule of law; the non-violent resolution of conflicts; and equality among citizens, beyond the limits of the state. To be fully implemented, this would require reforming existing international organizations, e.g. the United Nations, as well as the creation of new institutions such as a World Parliament, which ideally would enhance public control over, and accountability in, international politics.

Cosmopolitan Democracy has been promoted, among others, by physicist Albert Einstein,[77] writer Kurt Vonnegut, columnist George Monbiot, and professors David Held and Daniele Archibugi.[78]

The creation of the International Criminal Court in 2003 was seen as a major step forward by many supporters of this type of cosmopolitan democracy.
Non-governmental

Aside from the public sphere, similar democratic principles and mechanisms of voting and representation have been used to govern other kinds of communities and organizations.

* Many non-governmental organizations decide policy and leadership by voting.
* Most trade unions choose their leadership through democratic elections.
* Cooperatives are enterprises owned and democratically controlled by their customers or workers.
 
Last edited:

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Using today's definitions to try to claim a point doesn't work. We've become lazy with definitions as our language has become less proper. There is a varied history about what constitutes "Democracy" but it hardly seems worth trying to force everyone into just calling it a Democracy when a more accurate term is democratic republic.
 

woolfe9999

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2005
7,153
0
0
Current definitions reflect current usage. If we are going to suggest that we favor a past usage over current usage, then it becomes arbitrary which past definition we use. Relying on the current definition is the only non-arbitrary approach.
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Current definitions reflect current usage. If we are going to suggest that we favor a past usage over current usage, then it becomes arbitrary which past definition we use. Relying on the current definition is the only non-arbitrary approach.

That is fine until you start using current definitions to identify/describe things done in the past.
 

QuantumPion

Diamond Member
Jun 27, 2005
6,010
1
76
I'm pretty sure that when someone states "we're not a democracy, we're a republic" it is in the context of whether some law should be passed by direct vote or by the legislature. Congratulations on making a 10 page long wall of failure post.
 

QuantumPion

Diamond Member
Jun 27, 2005
6,010
1
76
I agree with Craig on this. A democracy has a natural tendency to become a pro-war plutocracy, because corportatism and statism are popular.

OK that does it. I am now 100% positive you and DCal are the same person and are just simultaneously trolling the conservatives and the liberals for fun.

You had a good run, and it was funny for a little while, but now you've been outed. GG. Now please go away.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
I'm pretty sure that when someone states "we're not a democracy, we're a republic" it is in the context of whether some law should be passed by direct vote or by the legislature. Congratulations on making a 10 page long wall of failure post.

Like pretty much everything I recall you being 'pretty sure about', you're wrong.

Most of the times this point has been made that I recall, it's a pedantic point about the definition of the word (and wrong).

Not about any specific issue - just trying to say 'the US is not a democracy' in general, claiming that's not what the word means.
 

QuantumPion

Diamond Member
Jun 27, 2005
6,010
1
76
Fine, I'll just leave you with this then. $0.02 to whomever knows who said it:

The words democracy, socialism, freedom, patriotic, realistic, justice have each of them several different meanings which cannot be reconciled with one another. In the case of a word like democracy, not only is there no agreed definition, but the attempt to make one is resisted from all sides. It is almost universally felt that when we call a country democratic we are praising it: consequently the defenders of every kind of regime claim that it is a democracy, and fear that they might have to stop using that word if it were tied down to any one meaning. Words of this kind are often used in a consciously dishonest way. That is, the person who uses them has his own private definition, but allows his hearer to think he means something quite different.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Fine, I'll just leave you with this then. $0.02 to whomever knows who said it:

You seem to think your quote says something about my post, but it's pretty irrelevant to it.

For what bit is relevant, there's not really a conflict. I wrote:

Democracy is a broad word. It includes various types of systems...
 

sactoking

Diamond Member
Sep 24, 2007
7,606
2,858
136
'Representative' Democracy - like the US - has elected representatives. It's also called a republic - but a republic is a form of democracy, and the most common form.

No. A republic is a system in which "the people" retain control of the government. "The people" can be defined as all of the people, like in a democracy, or some of the people, like in an aristocracy. The point is that in a republic the supreme power in the land is not manifest in a singular, unquestionable head of state like in a monarchy.

A democracy is a system in which all people have an "equal say" in the government. A true democracy is manifest in 'one person, one vote' (which, btw, is not synonymous with direct democracy).

If republic were a subset of democracy as contended then the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics would have been impossible, yet we know it existed and functioned as a republic even though there was no facade of democracy.

The US is a "democratic republic". It is a republic in the truest since of the words as "the people" maintain control of the government. It is a democracy in that at some levels, though not all, "all" of the people have an equal say in the government.

The use of the terms democracy and republic cannot be used interchangeably to describe the US. Democracy implies an equal say in government, yet we know this does not occur in the US. Given the electoral college system of presidential elections a resident of a low-population state has proportionally more say in electing the president than a resident of CA or NY. This adheres to republican standards (little 'r') and not democratic standards (again little 'd').

Really, you got your statement backwards. You said the republic was a subset of democracy but it's actually the other way around. Since a republic is run by at least "some people" and a democracy by "all people", republic : rectangle :: democracy : square.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
No. A republic is a system in which "the people" retain control of the government. "The people" can be defined as all of the people, like in a democracy, or some of the people, like in an aristocracy. The point is that in a republic the supreme power in the land is not manifest in a singular, unquestionable head of state like in a monarchy.

I didn't bother to get into various forms of republics, using the most common version of 'democratic republic', i.e., elected representatives.

A democracy is a system in which all people have an "equal say" in the government. A true democracy is manifest in 'one person, one vote' (which, btw, is not synonymous with direct democracy).

Not really - as I said, there are variations.

Even taking the US, was it a democracy when slaves couldn't vote? When women couldn't vote? Now that some felons can't vote? That children can't vote? That non-citizen legal residents can't vote? That non-citizen illegal resident can't vote? That people who don't meet higher and higher registration requirements can't vote? That some votes aren't counted (e.g., provisional ballots that aren't?)

How do 'ballot initiatives' the 'people' can directly put on the ballot and vote on, such as in California, affect whether the system is a democracy?

There are a lot of flavors.

If republic were a subset of democracy as contended then the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics would have been impossible, yet we know it existed and functioned as a republic even though there was no facade of democracy.

The US is a "democratic republic". It is a republic in the truest since of the words as "the people" maintain control of the government. It is a democracy in that at some levels, though not all, "all" of the people have an equal say in the government.

The use of the terms democracy and republic cannot be used interchangeably to describe the US. Democracy implies an equal say in government, yet we know this does not occur in the US. Given the electoral college system of presidential elections a resident of a low-population state has proportionally more say in electing the president than a resident of CA or NY. This adheres to republican standards (little 'r') and not democratic standards (again little 'd').

Really, you got your statement backwards. You said the republic was a subset of democracy but it's actually the other way around. Since a republic is run by at least "some people" and a democracy by "all people", republic : rectangle :: democracy : square.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.