Once again...Bush admin bails on questionable program before court hearings on it

[RightIsWrong]

Just like the deal they cut before the Gitmo holdings without judicial approval was to be heard by the SCOTUS...the Bush admin says they won't renew the WARRANTLESS wiretapping program right before it goes before judges to be reviewed.

What a shock. I guess it is better for them to give it up than to have it thrown back in their faces as unconstitutional and they really get embarrassed.


Source

President George W. Bush has decided not to reauthorize the controversial domestic warrantless surveillance program for terrorism suspects and to put it under the authority of a secret special court, Attorney General Alberto Gonzales said on Wednesday.

?The president has determined not to reauthorize the Terrorist Surveillance Program when the current authorization expires,? Gonzales wrote in a letter to Senate leaders.

?Any electronic surveillance that was occurring as part of the Terrorist Surveillance Program will now be conducted subject to the approval of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court,? Gonzales said.

The program, adopted after the September 11 attacks, allowed the government to eavesdrop on the international phone calls and e-mails of U.S. citizens without obtaining a warrant, if those wiretaps are made to track suspected al Qaeda operatives.

A defeat for the Bush administration and a defeat for the war on terror, both inevitable with the Democrats in power in Congress.

But, but, but.....I thought that it was imperative to national security that Americans give up our 4th amendment rights? :roll:

 

[Rainsford]

Good. Not only are our rights more protected, but maybe the efforts going into trying to weasel around the constitution will now go into doing something that might actually help fight terrorism.

By the way, I'd like to point out that even at the highest levels of government, people are still pretty much the same. People breaking the law only do so as long as they think everyone will let them get away with it.

 

[WHAMPOM]

cut and run tactics---SOP for Bush administration

 

[imported_Aelius]

Your rights are more protected but technically there is nothing stopping them from doing it regardless. Lets not forget that Bush is only attempting to make it legal. Technically it was Clinton who first turned it on the entire US population.

What might be different tho is specific wiretapping above and beyond ECHELON. That I'm not sure about in regards to Clinton and I personally haven't seen anything to consider that it was done previously without warrants.

Point is... nobody has asked the NSA to stop spying on Americans so technically this decision means next to nothing.

 

[Jhhnn]

I suspect it's an attempt to squelch futher inquiry into the extent of warrantless wiretapping. While the Admin has admitted to entering a grey area, overseas communication, it seems unlikely that's all there is to it...

Without a friendly congress to cover their butts, prevent honest inquiry, they've chosen to try to back away from it slowly, hoping the matter will be dropped...

Not likely, but it's all they've got...

 

[trenchfoot]

let's see here....hmmmm...ok....got it. so, that's another one that i can cross off from the very long and distiguished list of abuses and atrocities that bush and his loyalist dashboard-mounted bobble-headed grommet-sucking yes-boss-yes-boss buddies have commited against the un-super wealthy citizens of the US that he and his merry crew have been exploiting for the past six years.

only a few thousand more items to go.

on the auspicious day that he and his henchmen leave office, they should all be forced to run through a good old native american style gauntlet, complete with tomahawks and war clubs all made of semi-hard urethane of course, to more accurately emulate the iraqi war plans they asked some hollywood script writers to come up with.

it should start from right outside the white house front door, and be manned by every single parent, family member and loved one of those from our military that wasted their life and limb to make bush's wish that he be eternally known as the conquering crusader from the west come true.

at the end of the gauntlet, there should be a cauldron of hot tar and sacks full of chicken-hawk feathers waitng for them, manned by every general that had the temerity and gall to stand by their troops and speak the truth, thus paying the ultimate price of getting humiliatingly sacked into retirement by bush, cheney, wolfy and rummy.

gen shinseki (ret.) should apply the coup 'de grace by spitting in each and every one of their faces as they go tail-tucking it out the white house east gate trailing feathers out into the streets.

hey, if bush can be elected as our CIC twice, then anything's possible right? 😀

edit - syntax

 

[ProfJohn]

I think Bush follows P&N and decided that he had heard enough about the ?abuses? of his administration and changed his mind on this policy.

From what I read on yahoo though the program is not going away completely, the way it is run is just going to change. Who knows why they didn?t do it this way in the first place.

Most likely someone told the President he didn?t need to go through the secret court and the President followed their advice. The end result was a lot of lousy PR that could have been avoided.

The end result is that the program will still most likely do everything it does now, just under the watchful eye of a judge. Good for everyone, except the terrorists.

 

[kedlav]

The end result is that the program will still most likely do everything it does now, just under the watchful eye of a judge. Good for everyone, except the terrorists.

The end result is that it will go back to the same way it was run before, which likely will have no impact on the program whatsoever. Warrants can be obtained from the court after the actual tapping as part of an emergency wiretapping part of the rules, and combine that with the fact that the FISC is to the best of our knowledge a rubber stamp, its friggin ridiculous this entire gaffe was started in the first place.

Most likely someone told the President he didn?t need to go through the secret court and the President followed their advice. The end result was a lot of lousy PR that could have been avoided.

Weak excuse. The President of the United States should have the legal knowledge and common sense to know that warrantless intrusions in violation of the law are ILLEGAL and IMMORAL.

 

[imported_Aelius]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
I think Bush follows P&N and decided that he had heard enough about the ?abuses? of his administration and changed his mind on this policy.

From what I read on yahoo though the program is not going away completely, the way it is run is just going to change. Who knows why they didn?t do it this way in the first place.

Most likely someone told the President he didn?t need to go through the secret court and the President followed their advice. The end result was a lot of lousy PR that could have been avoided.

The end result is that the program will still most likely do everything it does now, just under the watchful eye of a judge. Good for everyone, except the terrorists.

ECHELON is a form of wiretapping only at a data mining level and includes all sources of communication. Which is far far worse than simply listening to the odd American. You can't just simply turn it on one person. You turn it on and watch the millions of voice/email and probably even fax just pour in.

While you are stroking to the idea of how protected we are yet safe from terrorists you may wish to ask yourself one simple question.

Does the FISA Court issue millions of warrants a day? If so it is as valuable a resource for protecting your constitutional rights as a donkey's ass.

 

[Lemon law]

The sad and scary alternate explanation is that GWB&co is going to bomb Iran---and this issue will become the least of anyones worries. See other threads on P&N.
Meanwhile why should GWB waste any energy fighting this when he has other plans to resolve it.

 

[OrByte]

It just goes to show how wrong this administration was in continuing a program that violated US rights. It is still wrong, no matter if they stopped the program or not, and I hope there is a means to continue investigations.

And those of you that supported this program were wrong too.

It is simply disgusting that NOW since there is a democratic congress, the Administration is attempting to, "cover up the bodies."

 

[DealMonkey]

It's now painfully clear that there is legal liability for Bush authorizing such a dubious program in the first place. With Dems controlling Congress, that liability became too dangerous and hence we are seeing changes in the program to bring it legit with our FISA laws. In the end though it won't matter and if it can be proven that the Bush Administration broke our nation's laws with their rampant surveillance practices, they can still be held accountable. The only thing protecting them at this point is the obscurement of the details of the program. A Congressional investigation that issues a few well-placed subpoenas could easily change all of that.

 

[halik]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey
It's now painfully clear that there is legal liability for Bush authorizing such a dubious program in the first place. With Dems controlling Congress, that liability became too dangerous and hence we are seeing changes in the program to bring it legit with our FISA laws. In the end though it won't matter and if it can be proven that the Bush Administration broke our nation's laws with their rampant surveillance practices, they can still be held accountable. The only thing protecting them at this point is the obscurement of the details of the program. A Congressional investigation that issues a few well-placed subpoenas could easily change all of that.

Yeah,
I would really like to see Gonzales' argument ("Congressional approval of the Iraq invasion gives us the right...") challenged in court... they really were grasping straws on that.

 

[Pens1566]

This move was strictly to avoid any congressional investigation on the subject. They just had to do it before the first subpoena flew.

 

[Craig234]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
I think Bush follows P&N and decided that he had heard enough about the ?abuses? of his administration and changed his mind on this policy.

From what I read on yahoo though the program is not going away completely, the way it is run is just going to change. Who knows why they didn?t do it this way in the first place.

Most likely someone told the President he didn?t need to go through the secret court and the President followed their advice. The end result was a lot of lousy PR that could have been avoided.

The end result is that the program will still most likely do everything it does now, just under the watchful eye of a judge. Good for everyone, except the terrorists.

If his name had been Charles Bush instead of Charles Manson, I suspect that we'd see posts from John about how you can't blame Charles that his 'joke orders' were followed.

It was all just a misunderstanding that the democrats hyped up for partisan gain. And some in National Review say it was a secret operation because the victims were terrorists, and we couldn't expose our information so we had to make it look like a crazy murder, and no one here can prove that's not the case.

 

[DealMonkey]

You just gotta question the timing on this -- right PJ?

Last August, a federal judge in Detroit declared the spying program unconstitutional, saying it violated the rights to free speech and privacy and the separation of powers. In October, a three-judge panel of the Cincinnati-based appeals court ruled that the administration could keep the program in place while it appeals the Detroit decision.

That appeal, which was scheduled to be heard on Jan. 31, will now likely be rendered moot, said one Justice Department official who spoke on condition of anonymity because the government has not yet officially decided whether to drop its case.

Attorneys for the department notified the appeals court in a separate letter Wednesday that "the government plans to file promptly papers ... addressing the implications of this development on the litigation."

 

[ProfJohn]

Deal, I think I stated an opinion on this months ago. And my thought then was that they should do it through the court, like they are going to do now.

Rupper stamp or not, at least there is some oversight.

 

[DealMonkey]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Deal, I think I stated an opinion on this months ago. And my thought then was that they should do it through the court, like they are going to do now.

Rupper stamp or not, at least there is some oversight.

Some. But then there are still portions of the program that are cloaked in secrecy and not being shared with Congress.

 

[imported_Aelius]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Deal, I think I stated an opinion on this months ago. And my thought then was that they should do it through the court, like they are going to do now.

Rupper stamp or not, at least there is some oversight.

Some. But then there are still portions of the program that are cloaked in secrecy and not being shared with Congress.

I don't see what that could be. We already know about ECHELON. We know about the wiretapping of offline cell phones. Then there is the government listening to everything we are saying through a remote activated mic also on cell phones. Then the hidden code was found in Google Toolbar to activate computer mics which suddenly Google claimed was for technical assistance purposes.

Is there anything left?

I have a hard time trying to imagine there being anything else. I mean the next step is 1000s of roving vans with microwave scanning houses as they pass and listening/watching us.

EDIT: Technically nothing I just mentioned is offically admited so I guess you are right. Lots of "secrets" left unseen.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Originally posted by: Aelius

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Deal, I think I stated an opinion on this months ago. And my thought then was that they should do it through the court, like they are going to do now.

Rupper stamp or not, at least there is some oversight.

Some. But then there are still portions of the program that are cloaked in secrecy and not being shared with Congress.

I don't see what that could be. We already know about ECHELON. We know about the wiretapping of offline cell phones. Then there is the government listening to everything we are saying through a remote activated mic also on cell phones. Then the hidden code was found in Google Toolbar to activate computer mics which suddenly Google claimed was for technical assistance purposes.

Is there anything left?

I have a hard time trying to imagine there being anything else. I mean the next step is 1000s of roving vans with microwave scanning houses as they pass and listening/watching us.

EDIT: Technically nothing I just mentioned is offically admited so I guess you are right. Lots of "secrets" left unseen.

You forgot the main "secret" way of eavesdropping.....
If you post anything anti - Bush on anand`s forum`s it activates a beacon that turns your toilet into a super huge microphone so they can listen.......

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
I think Bush follows P&N and decided that he had heard enough about the ?abuses? of his administration and changed his mind on this policy.

From what I read on yahoo though the program is not going away completely, the way it is run is just going to change. Who knows why they didn?t do it this way in the first place.

Most likely someone told the President he didn?t need to go through the secret court and the President followed their advice. The end result was a lot of lousy PR that could have been avoided.

The end result is that the program will still most likely do everything it does now, just under the watchful eye of a judge. Good for everyone, except the terrorists.

I suspect you're giving them a little too much credit. I'm sure they THOUGHT about doing it the more legal and less objectionable way, but seeking approval for his actions doesn't seem to be something Bush is big on. My guess is that going to FISA was more of an offense to his pride and sense of personal power than anything else.

 

[imported_Aelius]

Originally posted by: JEDIYoda

Originally posted by: Aelius

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Deal, I think I stated an opinion on this months ago. And my thought then was that they should do it through the court, like they are going to do now.

Rupper stamp or not, at least there is some oversight.

Some. But then there are still portions of the program that are cloaked in secrecy and not being shared with Congress.

I don't see what that could be. We already know about ECHELON. We know about the wiretapping of offline cell phones. Then there is the government listening to everything we are saying through a remote activated mic also on cell phones. Then the hidden code was found in Google Toolbar to activate computer mics which suddenly Google claimed was for technical assistance purposes.

Is there anything left?

I have a hard time trying to imagine there being anything else. I mean the next step is 1000s of roving vans with microwave scanning houses as they pass and listening/watching us.

EDIT: Technically nothing I just mentioned is offically admited so I guess you are right. Lots of "secrets" left unseen.

You forgot the main "secret" way of eavesdropping.....
If you post anything anti - Bush on anand`s forum`s it activates a beacon that turns your toilet into a super huge microphone so they can listen.......

Thank you kindly for summing up your knowledge on the subject for everyone reading here.

 

[DealMonkey]

Originally posted by: Aelius

Originally posted by: JEDIYoda

Originally posted by: Aelius

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Deal, I think I stated an opinion on this months ago. And my thought then was that they should do it through the court, like they are going to do now.

Rupper stamp or not, at least there is some oversight.

Some. But then there are still portions of the program that are cloaked in secrecy and not being shared with Congress.

I don't see what that could be. We already know about ECHELON. We know about the wiretapping of offline cell phones. Then there is the government listening to everything we are saying through a remote activated mic also on cell phones. Then the hidden code was found in Google Toolbar to activate computer mics which suddenly Google claimed was for technical assistance purposes.

Is there anything left?

I have a hard time trying to imagine there being anything else. I mean the next step is 1000s of roving vans with microwave scanning houses as they pass and listening/watching us.

EDIT: Technically nothing I just mentioned is offically admited so I guess you are right. Lots of "secrets" left unseen.

You forgot the main "secret" way of eavesdropping.....
If you post anything anti - Bush on anand`s forum`s it activates a beacon that turns your toilet into a super huge microphone so they can listen.......

Thank you kindly for summing up your knowledge on the subject for everyone reading here.

His usual string of "lollollol" would have been more illuminating.

 

[BMW540I6speed]

DealMonkey said:

His usual string of "lollollol" would have been more illuminating.

Know what else is "illuminating"?, anyone following the Senate judiciary hearings

Orrin Hatch spent the first two minutes of his time "questioning" Gonzales by lauding Gonzales' extreme integrity and diligence during this Grave and Epic War on Terrorism that America faces, explaining that everything they've done is critical to protecting us and describing the time in which Gonzales is Attorney General as one of the most difficult and important in history.

Hatch emphasized that he means not only U.S. history, but in the history of the whole, wide world. That is really what he said. He did not ask one question about anything the DOJ is doing with regard to this Most Important Matter.

Hatch then spent the rest of his time (all 6 minutes) demanding that Gonzales and the Justice Department devote much more of its resources and attention -- including FBI agents, other law-enforcement resources and a new task force, to enforcing anti-obscenity laws against people in the U.S. who produce pornography, particularly those who sell it over the Internet, and urged that whole new laws be created to criminalize Internet pornography.

Hatch praised the anti-pornography law passed last year called "The Adam Walsh Act" (guided through Congress by its main sponsor, Republican Congressman Mark Foley), but then insisted that whole new laws and far more substantial efforts were required to battle the perverse and destructive wickendness of sex films. Gonzales assured him they were devoting many investigative resources to enforcing obscenity laws.

Or, to put it another way, the Terrorists pose such a grave danger to our Republic that it is the most threatening and important time Ever, justifying whole new expansions of government power and total government secrecy in order to protect us and to win this War because the Terrorists want to kill us all, and our law enforcement resources should therefore be poured into imprisoning people who make adult films and putting an end to pornography.

"Islamofacst Porn"...oh nooo's!...Thanks Orin, more government pork!

I wish Americans were paying attention to this nonsense. Pornography was somewhere near the top of Ashcroft's list of his top seven priorities in the summer of 2001. Terrorism didn't make the cut. Shows where these peoples' heads are at. They are obsessed with dirty pictures. I think it is all they think about.


Then Feingold began by pointing out that the administration, including Gonzales, has many times accused opponents of the "Terrorist Surveillance Program"', meaning those who insisted that eavesdropping take place within the law, within the FISA framework -- of "opposing eavesdropping on terrorists"

Feingold's first question - "do you know of any one in the country who opposed eavesdropping on terrorists?"

Gonzales: Sure - if you look at blogs today, there is a lot of concern about all types of eavesdropping, who don't want us eavesdropping at all.

Feingold: Do you know anyone in government who ever took that position?

Gonzales: No, but that is not what I said.

Feingold: It is a disgrace and disservice to your office and the President to have accused people on this Committee of opposing eavesdropping on terrorists.

Gonzales: I didn't have you in mind or anyone on the Committee when I referred to people who oppose eavesdropping on terrorists. Perish the thought.

Feingold: Oh, well it's nice that you didn't have us "in your mind" when making those accusations, but given that you and the President were running around the country accusing people of opposing eavesdropping on terrorists in the middle of an election, the fact that you didn't have Congressional Democrats in "mind" isn't significant. Your intent was to make people think that anyone who opposed the "TSP" did not want to eavesdrop on terrorists, even though that was false. No Democrats oppose eavesdropping on terrorists.

Gonzales: I wasn't referring to Democrats.

So, apparently, all those speeches Bush officials and their supporters have spent the last year giving accusing people of opposing eavesdropping on terrorists, and all the television commericals making the same accusations throughout the months leading up to the election, were not about Democrats at all, but were about random bloggers who are against all eavesdropping.

Funny stuff, oversight's a bitch, heh Gonzo

 

[Tab]

Originally posted by: BMW540I6speed
I wish Americans were paying attention to this nonsense.

Originally posted by: Judiciary.Senate.Gov
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🙁 ATPN affect for the lose