On this Labor Day...

[CADsortaGUY]

we should look to increase accountability and openess to protect the workers in the US.

Accountability for all -- except for Big Labor

Again, Unions had their place years ago but today seem to be more about money than workers. Besides this attempt to actually CUT the budget of the OLMS(which makes sure there isn't anything funny going on within the Unions), Unions have been pushing through card check legislation which strips the worker of their right to have a secret ballot.

I call on all you Union members and supporters to stand up for accountability and demand it from your labor leaders, after all - it is Labor day! 🙂

 

[mfs378]

If monopolies in business can be broken up, why can't the union monopoly over workers? Both can have negative effects on the customer.

My favorite example is the teachers' union. Education in this country is awful and yet we can't make the fundamental changes that are necessary because our hands are tied.

 

[mfs378]

I wonder, is it generally accepted that business monopolies cannot be removed by market forces?

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: mfs378
If monopolies in business can be broken up, why can't the union monopoly over workers? Both can have negative effects on the customer.

My favorite example is the teachers' union. Education in this country is awful and yet we can't make the fundamental changes that are necessary because our hands are tied.

I think there is a perfect middle ground for unions, just as there is for corporations. We don't demand that corporations disband totally and every employee has to be self-employed, and similarly it would be a mistake to totally remove collective bargaining power for labor. The middle ground is to allow collective bargaining while avoiding the "labor monopoly" that national unions support. I think unions should absolutely be protected, just like corporations, but their size should be limited, just like corporations. I think a reasonable limit would be to unionize individual companies without unionizing the entire industry. Industry unionization is just like a corporate monopoly, but unionizing on the company level simply gives labor equal footing with capital.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: mfs378
I wonder, is it generally accepted that business monopolies cannot be removed by market forces?

If you ask economics professors, the answer is generally that market forces can solve EVERY problem, including monopolies. However, they always ignore real world problems like "switching costs" and the ability of a monopoly to hinder the growth of competitors. A less popular, but more correct (IMHO), theory holds that "market forces" really only work the way they are supposed to when the market dwarfs any particular participant.

 

[mfs378]

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: mfs378
If monopolies in business can be broken up, why can't the union monopoly over workers? Both can have negative effects on the customer.

My favorite example is the teachers' union. Education in this country is awful and yet we can't make the fundamental changes that are necessary because our hands are tied.

I think there is a perfect middle ground for unions, just as there is for corporations. We don't demand that corporations disband totally and every employee has to be self-employed, and similarly it would be a mistake to totally remove collective bargaining power for labor. The middle ground is to allow collective bargaining while avoiding the "labor monopoly" that national unions support. I think unions should absolutely be protected, just like corporations, but their size should be limited, just like corporations. I think a reasonable limit would be to unionize individual companies without unionizing the entire industry. Industry unionization is just like a corporate monopoly, but unionizing on the company level simply gives labor equal footing with capital.

Sounds great to me.

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: mfs378
I wonder, is it generally accepted that business monopolies cannot be removed by market forces?

If you ask economics professors, the answer is generally that market forces can solve EVERY problem, including monopolies. However, they always ignore real world problems like "switching costs" and the ability of a monopoly to hinder the growth of competitors. A less popular, but more correct (IMHO), theory holds that "market forces" really only work the way they are supposed to when the market dwarfs any particular participant.

Makes a lot of sense.

 

[Moonbeam]

The disgusting thing about teacher's unions is that teachers are grossly overpaid.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
we should look to increase accountability and openess to protect the workers in the US.

Accountability for all -- except for Big Labor

Again, Unions had their place years ago but today seem to be more about money than workers. Besides this attempt to actually CUT the budget of the OLMS(which makes sure there isn't anything funny going on within the Unions), Unions have been pushing through card check legislation which strips the worker of their right to have a secret ballot.

I call on all you Union members and supporters to stand up for accountability and demand it from your labor leaders, after all - it is Labor day! 🙂

I agree that unions have problems, but I think you're particularly naive if you think there is no longer a need for unions at all, or that corporations wouldn't go back to exploiting labor in a split second if they could.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
The disgusting thing about teacher's unions is that teachers are grossly overpaid.

I don't think the teachers' union helps when it comes to the problems with public education, but clearly there are problems with our education system beyond the teachers' union. The enormous bureaucracy surrounding public education can't be helping, and the lack of willingness of people to actually fund public education can't be helping either.

As for your point, I'd argue that the teachers' union is really not very useful, because, as you've pointed out, they haven't really been very successful in getting teachers paid fairly for their work. Just what DOES the teachers' union do?

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
The disgusting thing about teacher's unions is that teachers are grossly overpaid.

Teachers are not overpaid.

The union prevents the teachers from teaching effectively.

 

[babylon5]

Problem goes beyond teacher's union. Some culture don't value education, teachers can't change that for the students.

We have to accept America will never have decent education system except at college level. That is just reality.

 

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
The disgusting thing about teacher's unions is that teachers are grossly overpaid.

Teachers are not overpaid.

The union prevents the teachers from teaching effectively.

Actually, I think the biggest problem with our education system is the parents. Next to that is teacher pay, like Moonbeam said (you didn't catch his sarcasm). Increased pay brings more competition which brings better teachers. There are plenty of people who would love to teach but take better jobs with higher pay, to better support their own families.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
we should look to increase accountability and openess to protect the workers in the US.

I call on all you Union members and supporters to stand up for accountability and demand it from your labor leaders, after all - it is Labor day! 🙂

Absolutely.

Stop voting for big business and profits over people, stop voting Republican :thumbsup:

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
The disgusting thing about teacher's unions is that teachers are grossly overpaid.

Teachers are not overpaid.

The union prevents the teachers from teaching effectively.

Republican specifically Bush's NCLB is what prevents Teachers from teaching effectively.

The country did perfectly fine up until his bullcrap.

 

[Engineer]

On this labor day, the US leads the world in productivity.

Of course, the productivity gains by the US worker aren't reflected in his (especially) or her paycheck in "real" wage growth.

Labor onions are the only ones screwing the US worker....

Well, unless you're in the top 5% of earners of course.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: Engineer
On this labor day, the US leads the world in productivity.

Of course, the productivity gains by the US worker aren't reflected in his (especially) or her paycheck in "real" wage growth.

Labor onions are the only ones screwing the US worker....

Well, unless you're in the top 5% of earners of course.

While statistics of this sort can always be more complicated than you might think, it's interesting to note that the rise in average wages has not kept up with the rise in average worker productivity for quite some time now. Since 2000, average productivity has jumped nearly 20 percent, while average wages have gone up only 3 percent. I fully support the idea of working hard and being personally responsible, I just think you should get paid a fair wage to do it. Anyone who argues that companies are getting the short end of the capital/labor tug of war has been huffing paint, if anything, the situation for the average worker is getting worse.

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: Engineer
On this labor day, the US leads the world in productivity.

Of course, the productivity gains by the US worker aren't reflected in his (especially) or her paycheck in "real" wage growth.

Labor onions are the only ones screwing the US worker....

Well, unless you're in the top 5% of earners of course.

While statistics of this sort can always be more complicated than you might think, it's interesting to note that the rise in average wages has not kept up with the rise in average worker productivity for quite some time now. Since 2000, average productivity has jumped nearly 20 percent, while average wages have gone up only 3 percent. I fully support the idea of working hard and being personally responsible, I just think you should get paid a fair wage to do it. Anyone who argues that companies are getting the short end of the capital/labor tug of war has been huffing paint, if anything, the situation for the average worker is getting worse.

It's not just since 2000....look at "real" wages vs productivity since the early 1970's (when we left the gold standard).

Edit: to be fair, I understand that productivity gains are not just purely labor (i.e. working harder, more hours, etc). There are capital investments in automation and production boosting methods that warrent some of the difference in wage growth vs productivity growth. Not to the extent that it has widened though...IMO.

 

[Gneisenau]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
The disgusting thing about teacher's unions is that teachers are grossly overpaid.

Teachers are not overpaid.

The union prevents the teachers from teaching effectively.

Republican specifically Bush's NCLB is what prevents Teachers from teaching effectively.

The country did perfectly fine up until his bullcrap.

That could be the biggest load of BS you've spouted so far Dave. What distroyed the education system is the Liberals deciding that a students selfesteam was more important than learning.

California's education system went in the crapper long before GWB came into office. Their wonder new system (I forget what they called it) turned a whole generation of students there into morons. The worst part is most of the country decided to do something similar. When you can't flunk a student becuase that will make them feel bad, or dumb down the material because that trouble maker in the back may feel bad, or make schools keep trouble makers in class, because they have a right to an education (To hell with the students they drag down due to their disruptions.). All this crap started long ago.

When I was in JR high, CA students were a good year ahead of us, when I left high school they lost ground and within a few years they were grades behind. I'm in my mid 40's now and they haven't gotten any better.

You are a one trick pony Dave, if it's a problem, GWB caused it. How about lighting up your back-up brain cell and think before you spew that crap anymore.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: Engineer
On this labor day, the US leads the world in productivity.

Of course, the productivity gains by the US worker aren't reflected in his (especially) or her paycheck in "real" wage growth.

Labor onions are the only ones screwing the US worker....

Well, unless you're in the top 5% of earners of course.

While statistics of this sort can always be more complicated than you might think, it's interesting to note that the rise in average wages has not kept up with the rise in average worker productivity for quite some time now. Since 2000, average productivity has jumped nearly 20 percent, while average wages have gone up only 3 percent. I fully support the idea of working hard and being personally responsible, I just think you should get paid a fair wage to do it. Anyone who argues that companies are getting the short end of the capital/labor tug of war has been huffing paint, if anything, the situation for the average worker is getting worse.

It's not just since 2000....look at "real" wages vs productivity since the early 1970's (when we left the gold standard).

Edit: to be fair, I understand that productivity gains are not just purely labor (i.e. working harder, more hours, etc). There are capital investments in automation and production boosting methods that warrent some of the difference in wage growth vs productivity growth. Not to the extent that it has widened though...IMO.

This seems to be the biggest comeback by lefties but it isn't quite that easy - which it's nice to see you both realize. The numbers usually cited don't really tell the whole story but they sure can be put out in a way that most people will just accept them.

Anyone have data on how the invasion of illegal aliens has affected "real wages"? What other factors may have a direct impact on "real wages"?

And Engineer is correct on the productivity front though. It's not that we are working harder for productivity - we are just putting more automation in place to work more efficiently and with less "work". It's what I do everyday and to be honest, I'm not sure any of the machines I've put in or automated has cost anyone their job(even though it is technically possible).


Rainsford - no where did I stated that there was no longer a need at all for Unions. However, they have become what they used to fight against (worse IMO). They need to clean up their act and get back to helping the workers - not be in the money and politics business. They can start with stopping the card-check scam they are pushing for.

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
This seems to be the biggest comeback by lefties but it isn't quite that easy

Not so much of a lefty but I'll say that I work with many "righties" that echo the above sentiment! 😉

Regardless, there is some agreement on this issue...and it's not all black and white. 😀

 

[trenchfoot]

i guess i have to repeat this just as often as necessary: if there was no need for unions, the unions would not exist.

just as a corporation's wet dream is to angle itself into being as close to a monopoly as legally possible, so to would a union also desire the same deal. good for one and not the other?

why single out unions from gaining as much influence as it possibly can and then say it's perfectly ok for corporations to do the same just so they can more effectively take bargaining power away from the unions?

if a certain sector of the workforce sees that a certain union is having success with bargaining for a fair contract a lot better than other unions are, that worksector would naturally want to be represented by that union.

and if that succcess keeps that union growing in size and influence how is it any different from a corporation and its subsidiaries doing the same thing?

and why is it that unions get blamed for wrecking businesses that they bargain with when those very businesses are agreeing that the CBA that they've negotiated is as fair for them as it is for their unionized employees? so the unions are the only ones to be blamed for the very same contract that the owners of the business agreed to?

edit - spl

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Gneisenau

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
The disgusting thing about teacher's unions is that teachers are grossly overpaid.

Teachers are not overpaid.

The union prevents the teachers from teaching effectively.

Republican specifically Bush's NCLB is what prevents Teachers from teaching effectively.

The country did perfectly fine up until his bullcrap.

That could be the biggest load of BS you've spouted so far Dave. What distroyed the education system is the Liberals deciding that a students selfesteam was more important than learning.

California's education system went in the crapper long before GWB came into office. Their wonder new system (I forget what they called it) turned a whole generation of students there into morons. The worst part is most of the country decided to do something similar. When you can't flunk a student becuase that will make them feel bad, or dumb down the material because that trouble maker in the back may feel bad, or make schools keep trouble makers in class, because they have a right to an education (To hell with the students they drag down due to their disruptions.). All this crap started long ago.

When I was in JR high, CA students were a good year ahead of us, when I left high school they lost ground and within a few years they were grades behind. I'm in my mid 40's now and they haven't gotten any better.

You are a one trick pony Dave, if it's a problem, GWB caused it. How about lighting up your back-up brain cell and think before you spew that crap anymore.

Discipline and NCLB are totally two different issues. :roll:

 

[IGBT]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
The disgusting thing about teacher's unions is that teachers are grossly overpaid.

..as is top heavy admin.

 

[bctbct]

II Origins of Labor Day in the United States

Print this section
Peter J. McGuire, a carpenter and union leader, generally receives credit for suggesting a holiday to honor workers in 1882. McGuire chose the September date to give workers a holiday midway through the long stretch between Independence Day (July 4) and Thanksgiving (the fourth Thursday in November). The first Labor Day observance was held in New York City on September 5, 1882. Thousands of workers marched in a parade from City Hall to Union Square. Afterward, they gathered in a park with their families for a picnic and speeches.

In 1887 Oregon became the first state to make Labor Day a legal holiday. Other states soon followed. Early Labor Day parades were demonstrations in support of an eight-hour workday. During the 1800s most laborers worked long hours at low pay.


Next year all you Union haters can take your asses to work.

 

[Whoozyerdaddy]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
The disgusting thing about teacher's unions is that teachers are grossly overpaid.

Teachers are not overpaid.

The union prevents the teachers from teaching effectively.

Republican specifically Bush's NCLB is what prevents Teachers from teaching effectively.

The country did perfectly fine up until his bullcrap.

Yeah... because public education wasn't a complete joke before NCLB. :roll:
Just FYI dave... NCLB may not have been the best idea ever, but it didn't create a worse situation than we had before. If anything it was a push. Public education was a joke before... and it's still a joke now with test scores declining at the same predictable rate.

NCLB is pretty much a failure. There's not much debate about that. But it didn't do any harm. At least someone was willing to try a new path toward failure. Trying the same thing over and over and expecting differenc results and all that...

Hopefully someone will be able to find a new idea that actually works. (And they will be able to implement it)